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It Contractor? Out Of Work? Wages Depressed?


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Let computer do job = good.

Let foreigner do job = bad.

Let foreigner do job on computer = double bad.

You're missing the fact that computers don't operate all by themselves, or do you think they do :lol:

New jobs were created for British people. Are you about five years old?

Yet again, basic logic failure.

Simply not worth talking to you. You remind me of somebody who recently left school having got a GCSE grade E in Art - and nothing else :lol:

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Guest absolutezero
You're missing the fact that computers don't operate all by themselves, or do you think they do :lol:

New jobs were created for British people. Are you about five years old?

Yet again, basic logic failure.

Simply not worth talking to you. You remind me of somebody who recently left school having got a GCSE grade E in Art - and nothing else :lol:

AKA

"I can't fault your logic and you are actually right. What do I do to avoid looking stupid? Ah! I insult him!"

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The Tories would be no different.

I doubt whether any political party would be. IMPO the vast majority of politicians do not understand IT nor do they understand the basic principles of economies. All they see, IMPO, is the bottom line and usually the bottom line in their pocket. Such a mentality is what has got us into the financial crisis we are in.

UK tax payers pay for some ridiculous UK Public Sector IT project.

UK Public Sector IT contract goes to some global IT consultancy - often not British owned so money goes out of UK

Global IT consultancy outsources the work, with Govt approval, to India in order to reduce costs.

Global IT consultancy makes bigger profit

British IT workers out of work and on dole so tax payer pays twice - for the IT workers in India and for UK IT workers on dole.

Unemployed people cannot afford to buy houses, cars, TVs, etc, etc.

It is the economics of madness.

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You're missing the fact that computers don't operate all by themselves, or do you think they do :lol:

New jobs were created for British people. Are you about five years old?

Yet again, basic logic failure.

Simply not worth talking to you. You remind me of somebody who recently left school having got a GCSE grade E in Art - and nothing else :lol:

My GCSE in Art is worth more than an IT qualification for a job that's been outsourced to India.

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I doubt whether any political party would be. IMPO the vast majority of politicians do not understand IT nor do they understand the basic principles of economies. All they see, IMPO, is the bottom line and usually the bottom line in their pocket. Such a mentality is what has got us into the financial crisis we are in.

UK tax payers pay for some ridiculous UK Public Sector IT project.

UK Public Sector IT contract goes to some global IT consultancy - often not British owned so money goes out of UK

Global IT consultancy outsources the work, with Govt approval, to India in order to reduce costs.

Global IT consultancy makes bigger profit

British IT workers out of work and on dole so tax payer pays twice - for the IT workers in India and for UK IT workers on dole.

Unemployed people cannot afford to buy houses, cars, TVs, etc, etc.

It is the economics of madness.

Yes, but British IT worker might still be more expensive than an Indian IT worker plus a British IT worker on the dole. Depressing but economic reality.

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Guest absolutezero
It seemed (and still does) the most appropriate reply to a truly retarded comment.

Look, I'm not interested in all the usual politically correct retarded peoples views. I've learnt from experience there's no point trying to reason with people who only have once braincell. I've posted this link for people WHO DO THINK WHAT'S GOING ON IS OUTRAGEOUS AND WISH TO ADD THEIR NAME TO THE PETITION.

If you don't like the petition because you're a foreigner, stupid or are just jealous of people who earn more than you - just shutup and let other people sign the petition if they want to.

Oh look. An IT employee who isn't socially developed enough to answer people without insulting them... Who would have thought it?

Jealous of people who earn more than me? From what it says on here I already earn more than most IT workers! If you're going to insult people at least do your research...

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Guest absolutezero
They're only earning £15k per year and most contractors still earn more than this - but only for now.

Well obviously IT contractors are unaffordable and unsustainable. Rather like public sector pensions..... :rolleyes:

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Yes, but British IT worker might still be more expensive than an Indian IT worker plus a British IT worker on the dole. Depressing but economic reality.

More expensive to who?

I can see that obviously a company makes most with the cheapest staff to do an IT project but I think this extra profit is based on them not paying any of the unemployment or other costs of the displaced British worker whihc they should. I think the client is still paying the same or maybe 5% less. Also as stated earlier there is a net less to UK PLC in income tax levies. It seems to me we are subsidizing big business to screw over the British worker and that big business is not taking responsibilty for the results long term.

Don't you think its imoral for businesses to pretend there is a lack of skills purely to use a loophole to hire cheaper workers?

.

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Yes, but British IT worker might still be more expensive than an Indian IT worker plus a British IT worker on the dole. Depressing but economic reality.

Yes, but if you think that way you think the same way as those who, with all respect, do not understand economics.

Paying the more expensive British IT worker, or British worker of any profession, means you generate revenue in this country and you keep the central Government spend in this country.

So the money stays in and circulates in the UK allowing the UK worker to go and buy things in UK shops, restaurants, houses, etc, etc.

Simply giving central Government spend - our taxes - to a foreign country because the foreign worker is cheaper means you lose the revenue you pay out and the boy or girl in India buys stuff in India thereby stimulating and growing the Indian economy.

It is win win for India and lose lose for the UK. Eventually, no one in the UK is earning income so no one pays taxes so there is no longer money to even pay the boys and girls in India. It is the economics of madness and shows a complete lack of understanding of business, economics and basic common-sense.

Of course, being a thick Government minister or civil servant is perhaps one reason why so much UK work is being outsourced. Another reason, some might say, is brown paper envelopes in swiss bank accounts?

It is such naive thinking where companies have had to have ever-increasing share prices, for example, which has driven us into this economic crisis - companies have cut costs usually by cutting back on wages which means cutting back on talent, experience and skills which, whilst in the short-term may boost share price, in the long-term leads to the decline of the company.

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More expensive to who?

I can see that obviously a company makes most with the cheapest staff to do an IT project but I think this extra profit is based on them not paying any of the unemployment or other costs of the displaced British worker whihc they should. I think the client is still paying the same or maybe 5% less. Also as stated earlier there is a net less to UK PLC in income tax levies. It seems to me we are subsidizing big business to screw over the British worker and that big business is not taking responsibilty for the results long term.

Don't you think its imoral for businesses to pretend there is a lack of skills purely to use a loophole to hire cheaper workers?

.

They were making this very argument in Moneyweek a few weeks back - stating that companies in the UK who pay the minimum wage, and hence the employees often need benefit top-ups, are having their profits subsidised by the UK tax-payer.

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I told you anyone should be able to go and work anywhere - that is not the same BTW.

that's just a pretty plain naive thought though

name me one country, that will punish its indigenise nationals, by allowing random (excepting Non EU) oversea's workers to come and go as they please ?

they will alow this for 1 off projects, training, meetings but not for regular work.

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Absolute rubbish.

It's not rubbish - I've worked in the states, and worked with people brought over from the states for a particular job. It's a good idea.

Having RTFA though, I see the problem is the change to allow new graduates, rather than experienced professionals, to take advantage. That is clearly open to abuse.

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A lot of companies, esp the big PLCs and multinationals will only employ contractors via their approved agencies. That's why.

+1 .... same for us oil industry contractors.

What is amazing is that you have the contractors side of HR being subcontracted out to a company, and this company tells you to go through an approved agency, which is infact part of their company! So these buqqers are coining it in twice and the oil companies don't care, as long as positions are filled and we can be fired with 7 days notice.

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I think the thing to bear in mind is we are only talking about 30,000 people here who come in on short term visas where there is clearly some sort of skills shortage , the fact that contractors command 200-500 per day would to me seem to indicate that there is clearly some sort of shortage which a bit of extra supply could clear up, obviously painfull for those enjoying the relative high paying contracts but its reasonable for businesses to ship in foreign talent if the domestic stuff is too pricey , if a millions were coming over then there may be a problem but 30,000 sounds to me like the right sort of number

It helps everyone to be flexible in this way , I have worked in many countries overseas and there are several million brits working overseas at any moment in time, if everyone became inflexible to companies wanting to shift staff around in areas where a visa is obtained by demonstrating some need for the work to be done then we would have several million brits heading home in exchange for the 30k indians , tokyo alone has 20k brits working there.

Wickywackywoo undermines his credibility by abusing anyone who argues against him and further by saying you are just jealous as I earn more than you, the best thing contractors could do to further their cause is shut up about their rates ! Its the high rates that make it fruitful to ship in the indians , it just reminds me of the printers moaning about losing their super high compensation when Murdoch called their bluff and got rid of them ...

the reality is there will be deflation in IT rates, its part of globalisation , you can be a luddite or work smart and plan ahead ...

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But there are clearly NOT skill shortages - IT staff are being imported because they are sold as cheaper (*), not because they are better or offer anything which is not already available.

And this is an issue which affects permies and contractors alike - with permies the way it works is that a whole department is offshored to India (after some of the permies are forced/bribed to train their replacements) and after a few months staff are then brought back "on shore" to the UK from India on ICT visas as an onshore prescence is now felt needed. This is usually done after 3 months, so that the former staff can't sue for unfair dismissal under UK employment law. Also the "new" staff (sitting at the same desks, doing the same jobs) are given new job titles so that the lie of onshoring can be preserved. Hey presto, whole departement replaced with cheap imported labour, legally and without any unions squealing (not that they care either until it hits them, which it will one day).

And there is no real competition for jubs - I challenge anyone on this board to tell me how I can get a job in IT in India, or the UK, working for one of these outsourcers. It can't be done - they are fiercely protectionist of their own jobs market, despite there being a real skills shortage in India.

And for those who previously used Tesco in this thread, note also that companies are unable to startup in India alone - its not allowed - they have to partner an India company at least 50:50 in order to have a presence in India - witness what happened when Walmart tried to open up there. More to say but that'll do for now.

(*) And they are not necessarily cheaper either, their hourly rate might on the surface be lower but once other factors are taken (such as excessive chaperoning of the outsourcer being needed and taking longer to do the job, etc) into account it is frequently a false economy, as my company (bluechip petrol) is finding out.

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I think the thing to bear in mind is we are only talking about 30,000 people here who come in on short term visas where there is clearly some sort of skills shortage , the fact that contractors command 200-500 per day would to me seem to indicate that there is clearly some sort of shortage which a bit of extra supply could clear up

Actually, this daily rate also includes sick pay, holiday pay, pension contributions, no redundancy payments, etc etc and after all is totted up, contractors are not that much better off than permies, it just looks better on paper to those who don't realise that the salary the employee gets is only part of the real cost of employing them.

However, the company is far better off as contractors do not have any kind of job security -- if a female contractor gets preggers it's her problem and if the contractor's face does not fit, he can just be sacked without any recourse to a tribunal. So, it's rather surprising that any company still uses the employee model, given the obvious drawbacks of that kind of system -- it's not a skill shortage as such at all, just that employers no longer want to have the hassle of employing permies in the first place.

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Let computer do job = good.

Let foreigner do job = bad.

Let foreigner do job on computer = double bad.

I think we have been through this before. Henry Ford realised that unless his workers could afford the goods they were making there was no point. Genuine IT is engineering. Of course there is a lot of it which is peripheral - like most professions or trades. A little of it is worthless.

Most things in retail - beyond the necessities, are worth less than the time to buy them. But the need to suggest we should have them continues to fuel the misery of an unfulfilled life.

But then, who has the vested interest in keeping the country dumb until nothingness rules, eh ?

Sure employ your immigrants unitl not one Brit can afford to live - Make sure your gated community and the occasional piece of meat is sustainable.

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Article from Computer Weekly

"IT companies are exploiting the intra-company transfer rule more than most - they brought 29,240 non-EU IT workers into the UK in 2008, compared to 14,255 in all other professional service sectors combined."

Yep, that's right our wonderful government are still importing cheap labour hand over fist while more and more of us are ending up out of work. The article above seems to indicate that they are planning on making it even easier for companies to abuse the process. Time we all starting speaking out or the entire IT industry in this country will be run by cheap foreign labour flown over on the cheap while we are all put out of work.

Make yourself heard, sign the petition below:

Petition

Edited to add: Not just IT contractors. Permies are also affected by what's going on.

Why should I petition for your subsidy?

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Oh get lost. IT contractors have been milking it for years. Clueless and overpaid during the good times. Now slightly less overpaid during the bad times. Get over it or get a proper job.

"Milking the system" Contractors can go at one weeks notice without redundancy pay- They are employed on their skills, taking risks moving from contract to contract without the training and support that employees receive, and having to fit in into each company.

Milking the system is more common to permanent employees, staying on year after year, never taking any real risks and waiting for their pensions.

Yes agreed there are some contractors who are paid too much, but this is not common to all contractors. I'd say to permanent staff if you think that contracting is easy money - then why don't you become a contractor.

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I think we have been through this before. Henry Ford realised that unless his workers could afford the goods they were making there was no point. Genuine IT is engineering. Of course there is a lot of it which is peripheral - like most professions or trades. A little of it is worthless.

Most things in retail - beyond the necessities, are worth less than the time to buy them. But the need to suggest we should have them continues to fuel the misery of an unfulfilled life.

But then, who has the vested interest in keeping the country dumb until nothingness rules, eh ?

Sure employ your immigrants unitl not one Brit can afford to live - Make sure your gated community and the occasional piece of meat is sustainable.

I'm not disputing there may be negative societal implications for this country as it has become reliant on cheap foreign labour. My point is if it's been decided that the metal bashing industry is perfectly ok to disappear to the Far East I see no good reason that the keyboard bashing industry should receive any special treatment in the form of me paying over the odds for IT services.

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You don't know what you're talking about. How do you know I have no right of substitution? And for the record substitution, although a major pointer, is not conclusive if absent. It is entirely possible to pass the self-employment tests without it (or a fettered clause which most contractors have).

If we're not self-employed then where is my holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy pay, bank holiday pay, training, pension, BUPA etc and why do I have to pay an accountant to file my accounts with Company House every year?

You sound a bit like the taxman, wanting to tax us as employees but still force us to pay Employers NI and well as Employees NI and get none of the perks of employment.

do you fill in a tax return? if not, then you are an employee.

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  • 415 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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