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Peak Gas Pushed Back 70 Years Due To Massive Discoveries.


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"Firstly we can quite easily use gas or oil for transport. Electric cars could be a possibility soon. Or even electrifying the roads so that cars draw power directly from an ugly antenna sticking out the top as the trams do. Perhaps with a very small battery that will allow 5 miles “off gridâ€.

We already use oil for transport. Look, try and start figuring the costs for replacing all the cars powered by liquid fuels to electric cars. Imagine how much energy would be needed to make all that steel, putting tram lines in every road? Don't just think about the UK, think about the whole world. The price of energy is interlinked all over the globe. Everyone is in this together...

The IOCs aren't really energy producers, that is their secondary aim. the first one is to pay the banks dividends otherwise they would not exist. Because we privatised our energy the British state allowed a very small number of people/institutions - manly the banks - to extract huge profits and we wasted all those valuable hydrocarbons...

Energy use needs to be planned, not left to the wasteful inefficient market...

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Have a look at this scheme Kurt:

http://www.goodenergy.co.uk/?page_id=46

You don't require an import/export meter, which would have to be fitted by your utility company.

You only require a total generation meter, which you can fit yourself - only costs 20 quid or so.

Paid 15p per unit generated, whether you use or export.

Out of interest, which grid tie inverter are you considering?

Thanks for the link :)

The Grid tie is the Mastervolt Soladin 700

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I would like to see if I can run my freezer effectively on an intermittant supply - so basically no electricity when it is dark

Thats a very effective strategy that even works in Australia (solar powered fridges are populare in the outback..).

You can get extra efficient 12V fridges specifically designed for that scenario.

Personally I would add external insulation and good ventilation and 12V fridges are MUCH more efficient than going through he conversion process.

http://www.rpc.com.au/products/appliances/...fridge_faq.html

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Yes, but to transport much of the gas around the world it has to be compressed and refrigerated. This costs a lot - perhaps as much as GTL?

It doesn't cost that much. the bulk carriers have been built. The Uk has built the gas terminals and has done deals with Qatar and others

It CNG doesn't have to refrigerated - just compressed.

From the discussion going here it sounds like you are utterly un-aware house easy it is to convert a car to run on CNG and fill up at a normal service station, switching back to petrol as required.

I beleive all of the presenters in Top Gear have CNG powered vehicles for their own use.

I understood that CNG was viable for buses, coaches and HGV's but not really practical for smaller cars. Issues around having to compress the fuel / fuel density.

I like the concept of hybrids that also have a battery pack for say 10-20 miles that can be charged off peak / on dynamic demand systems. That range would cover for most short range commuting / city travel and could utlise off peak nuclear / wind /other variable renewable power.

Tell that to the hundred of thousands of cars in the UK that run on CNG.

http://www.autogas.ltd.uk/

Edited by Peter Hun
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Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable
Nice ideas but you have to consider the material cost of mirrors etc. Also the asthetics and the fact that where I live is quite windy. Nicely battened down on the garage roof is where they will sit - also out of view ;)

In terms of improving thermal mass of freezers and fridges - put containers of water in them. I would like to see if I can run my freezer effectively on an intermittant supply - so basically no electricity when it is dark

I saw this the other day. Making a chest freezer into a fridge and running it on 0.1kWh/day.

Fridge from a freezer

Maybe a bit fiddly to find things, but sounds like a good project.

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Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable
Nice ideas but you have to consider the material cost of mirrors etc. Also the asthetics and the fact that where I live is quite windy. Nicely battened down on the garage roof is where they will sit - also out of view ;)

In terms of improving thermal mass of freezers and fridges - put containers of water in them. I would like to see if I can run my freezer effectively on an intermittant supply - so basically no electricity when it is dark

I saw this the other day. Making a chest freezer into a fridge and running it on 0.1kWh/day.

Fridge from a freezer

Maybe a bit fiddly to find things, but sounds like a good project.

Oops.

Edited by DissipatedYouthIsValuable
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Thanks for the link :)

The Grid tie is the Mastervolt Soladin 700

No problem.

Soladin is a good inverter. Only problem is that it could be running above maximum load (700W) with 800W of panels. One thing that is sure to shorten inverter life is running them for long periods at or above max load.

Have you considered a bigger inverter to allow for panel expansion?

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No problem.

Soladin is a good inverter. Only problem is that it could be running above maximum load (700W) with 800W of panels. One thing that is sure to shorten inverter life is running them for long periods at or above max load.

Have you considered a bigger inverter to allow for panel expansion?

What would you recommend?

I have been doing some calculations and may reduce my panels back to 600w

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When OPEC started they allowed countries to produce oil based on the amount of their reservse. After they announced this all the oil producing countries suddenly upped the estimates of their reserves. This gave them the right to produce more oil and so make more money. It will only take one of the big Saudi oil fields to start to produce less to put the world into a real turmoil.

I don't like the word produced or production as it is really just a term for extracting oil from a hole in the ground.

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We already use oil for transport. Look, try and start figuring the costs for replacing all the cars powered by liquid fuels to electric cars.

about £10 trillion if done overnight, however cars dont last for ever and a gradual transition over 15 years would be "free". instead of buying a petrol one you buy an electric one or a gas one.

Imagine how much energy would be needed to make all that steel, putting tram lines in every road? Don't just think about the UK, think about the whole world. The price of energy is interlinked all over the globe. Everyone is in this together...

Negligible considering most of the infrastructure is already there.

Because we privatised our energy the British state allowed a very small number of people/institutions - manly the banks - to extract huge profits and we wasted all those valuable hydrocarbons...

Wrong.

Energy use needs to be planned, not left to the wasteful inefficient market...

The markets are not inefficient and they do plan.

The vast majority of my work is energy efficiency these days and we have come up with something that could save over £100m worth of gas per year worldwide if used by other steel plants. I doubt some council worker could have planed what we did into existence.

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What would you recommend?

I have been doing some calculations and may reduce my panels back to 600w

You would really need 2 Soladins or a bigger inverter, such as a Sunny Boy (expensive at least £1000, but efficient and design life of 20 years) for 800W of panels.

If I were you, I'd probably stick with 600W of panels.

You will need to check to compatibility of your proposed panels with the calculator on the Mastervolt site:

http://www.mastervolt.com/download.php?id=4420

You must keep voltage/current within a certain range for maximum efficiency.

The Navitron forum has a few members using Soladins who should be able to advise.

The Soladins are quoted as being 90% efficient, but at full power they run hot, which will reduce efficiency below 90%. You should aim to keep them as cool as possible, but as close to the panels as poss to reduce voltage loss.

I'm sure it won't be long before the "it's illegal to do any electrical work" HPCers tell you off for attempting your own installation. ;)

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about £10 trillion if done overnight, however cars dont last for ever and a gradual transition over 15 years would be "free". instead of buying a petrol one you buy an electric one or a gas one.

That's very simplistic. Its not just the cars that need replacing; the production lines that they're made on will need retooling - or virtually replacing if electric cars are made. Also, factor in the cost of heavily beefing up the gas supply network of pipelines/pressurised cylinders, re-equipping garage forecourts, etc. etc. Also, beefing up the electric grid, building a network of recharging points, finding the extra copper, lithium, etc. (the mining, refining, and distribution of which is heavily dependant on diesel)

Remember, there's currently an an infrastructure in place to build 1 billion internal combustion engined vehicles per decade that needs re-engineering. Ditto the petrol and diesel refining and distribution system that currently provides 90% of our transportation energy.

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That's very simplistic. Its not just the cars that need replacing; the production lines that they're made on will need retooling - or virtually replacing if electric cars are made. Also, factor in the cost of heavily beefing up the gas supply network of pipelines/pressurised cylinders, re-equipping garage forecourts, etc. etc. Also, beefing up the electric grid, building a network of recharging points, finding the extra copper, lithium, etc. (the mining, refining, and distribution of which is heavily dependant on diesel)

Remember, there's currently an an infrastructure in place to build 1 billion internal combustion engined vehicles per decade that needs re-engineering. Ditto the petrol and diesel refining and distribution system that currently provides 90% of our transportation energy.

I think you overestimate the challenge and underestimate our ability to build.

Electric cars would need little extra infrastructure. They would add about 20% demand to the grid. The grid demand already varies more than that now. So we don't need more pylons etc although we would need about 5 new big power plants, preferably nuclear.

Electric cars are very similar to normal cars so we wont need to change the factories much, even if we did the capital would be paid back by the energy efficiency savings.

As for gas cars. The infrastructure to add gas to petrol stations is mostly already there. There are even small domestic units which take your mains gas and compress it to pump into your gas car.

Also we don't need the gas pipes beefing up as the capacity is already there. Think about it, most gas is used in certain times, say when people are cooking dinner. At other times there is at least that much spare capacity.

Changing for internal oil combustion engine to full electric or some hybrid would not be too costly.

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I think you overestimate the challenge and underestimate our ability to build.

Electric cars would need little extra infrastructure. They would add about 20% demand to the grid. The grid demand already varies more than that now. So we don't need more pylons etc although we would need about 5 new big power plants, preferably nuclear.

Electric cars are very similar to normal cars so we wont need to change the factories much, even if we did the capital would be paid back by the energy efficiency savings.

As for gas cars. The infrastructure to add gas to petrol stations is mostly already there. There are even small domestic units which take your mains gas and compress it to pump into your gas car.

Also we don't need the gas pipes beefing up as the capacity is already there. Think about it, most gas is used in certain times, say when people are cooking dinner. At other times there is at least that much spare capacity.

Changing for internal oil combustion engine to full electric or some hybrid would not be too costly.

If we all switched to gas cars the infrastructure would not cope. Already gas pressures in the mains network drop to near the statutory minimum by evening in cold spells in the winter. The network is effectively repressurised over night. We all start filling cars with gas the system will fold.

Don't disagree with your point on leccy providing charging is done overnight / using dynamic demand.

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If we all switched to gas cars the infrastructure would not cope. Already gas pressures in the mains network drop to near the statutory minimum by evening in cold spells in the winter. The network is effectively repressurised over night. We all start filling cars with gas the system will fold.

Don't disagree with your point on leccy providing charging is done overnight / using dynamic demand.

Guesstimate kurt guesstimate…… have you learnt nothing?

Average gas car would use say about 30kWh a day. Times by 5 million cars (switch is gradual and slow). That makes 150 million kWh a day.

What do we currently use?

About 80kWh per house times 25m houses equals 2000 million kWh. Business and industry also use a huge amount. Say another 2000 million kWh a day.

So to convert 5 million cars you’re looking at demand increasing by 150 out of about 4000 or just a 4% increase in demand on the gas network over a period of years!!

The gas network could handle it!! We could probably insulate a few houses to make up the difference if there really was a problem which I am pretty sure there wouldn’t be.

Anyway if gas cars were popular then petrol stations would supply most of the gas probably via direct feeds from backbone pipes. You would be surprised how much flow you can get out of a 1 inch pipe at 10 bar.

And on a somewhat related topic last night I couldn’t sleep and thought up a way to save a hugeeeeeeeeeeeee amount of natural gas at work. We are talking about £10m pa just on our site and you could potentially multiply that by 100-200x worldwide (plus we pay a lot less for gas than domestic customers, I think about 1.5p so the kWh figure is huge). (its actually a saving in coke oven gas, but we can divert that to our mills which would then use that instead of natural gas).

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Guesstimate kurt guesstimate…… have you learnt nothing?

Average gas car would use say about 30kWh a day. Times by 5 million cars (switch is gradual and slow). That makes 150 million kWh a day.

What do we currently use?

About 80kWh per house times 25m houses equals 2000 million kWh. Business and industry also use a huge amount. Say another 2000 million kWh a day.

So to convert 5 million cars you’re looking at demand increasing by 150 out of about 4000 or just a 4% increase in demand on the gas network over a period of years!!

The gas network could handle it!! We could probably insulate a few houses to make up the difference if there really was a problem which I am pretty sure there wouldn’t be.

Anyway if gas cars were popular then petrol stations would supply most of the gas probably via direct feeds from backbone pipes. You would be surprised how much flow you can get out of a 1 inch pipe at 10 bar.

And on a somewhat related topic last night I couldn’t sleep and thought up a way to save a hugeeeeeeeeeeeee amount of natural gas at work. We are talking about £10m pa just on our site and you could potentially multiply that by 100-200x worldwide (plus we pay a lot less for gas than domestic customers, I think about 1.5p so the kWh figure is huge). (its actually a saving in coke oven gas, but we can divert that to our mills which would then use that instead of natural gas).

I suppose a guestimate is better than a million miles off the mark ;)

What you have done is averaged it out. Life would be easy if you had a constant demand 24/7 except it dont work like that. As I said the system creaks in the peak winter months - add to that every household drawing off the equivalent of 30-40 kwh of gas a day (3-4 litres equiv of diesel) and the pressure will drop through the floor. Deprerssurise the gas grid and you have major problems - you can't just switch it back on.

Increasing the pressure in the system to allow for more storage is a bad idea given how leaky the pipes are already. Once the hydrogen boys :lol: start sticking their stuff in the pipes - well it just gets worse.

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The problem with all the peak theories is that they do not account for technological progress. The last scare over oil was actually the 6th time the world thought they were running out of oil. What happens each time is as the current method of extraction runs low the price of the resource rises dramatically. Then there is a massive amount of investment that goes into alternative ways of finding more.

I actually own Colin Campbell's peak oil book. And was convinced at first when I read it. But over the years I realized that it really only applied to shallow land based light sweet crude. Indeed that oil appears to have peaked in 2000-2001.

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I suppose a guestimate is better than a million miles off the mark ;)

What you have done is averaged it out. Life would be easy if you had a constant demand 24/7 except it dont work like that. As I said the system creaks in the peak winter months - add to that every household drawing off the equivalent of 30-40 kwh of gas a day (3-4 litres equiv of diesel) and the pressure will drop through the floor. Deprerssurise the gas grid and you have major problems - you can't just switch it back on.

Increasing the pressure in the system to allow for more storage is a bad idea given how leaky the pipes are already. Once the hydrogen boys :lol: start sticking their stuff in the pipes - well it just gets worse.

every household wouldn’t be drawing off 30-40kWh unless all cars were gas and that isn’t going to happen overnight, that would happen over two decades or longer which is enough time to up the gas grid by 10% quite easily.

And as you pointed out it only gets creaky in very bad winter months.

Well one way to get somewhat around that is to ask everyone to fill up the tank fully before those winter month that really pushes the gas grid. That isn’t going to solve the problem but it will help. I full up my tank once a month so can go for a month without withdrawing any gas if required. You could also have a hose ban type system where in the winter months you’re only permitted to draw at certain times of the day. if all else fails we can add the pipe work needed.

Anyway my argument is that the general view of electric or gas cars requiring expensive infrastructure is false. Neither gas nor electric cars would require a massive investment in infrastructure or a massive capital cost in re-tooling factories.

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every household wouldn’t be drawing off 30-40kWh unless all cars were gas and that isn’t going to happen overnight, that would happen over two decades or longer which is enough time to up the gas grid by 10% quite easily.

And as you pointed out it only gets creaky in very bad winter months.

Well one way to get somewhat around that is to ask everyone to fill up the tank fully before those winter month that really pushes the gas grid. That isn’t going to solve the problem but it will help. I full up my tank once a month so can go for a month without withdrawing any gas if required. You could also have a hose ban type system where in the winter months you’re only permitted to draw at certain times of the day. if all else fails we can add the pipe work needed.

Anyway my argument is that the general view of electric or gas cars requiring expensive infrastructure is false. Neither gas nor electric cars would require a massive investment in infrastructure or a massive capital cost in re-tooling factories.

Go on - admit it - you are a closet Commie! :lol:

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  • 433 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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