Vaccines

[King Stromba]

in america they say that BS MS and PhD stands for ********, moreshit and piled high and deep in shit and I do think there is something in that!

Mind if i use that line?

[nevajism]

yeah course, I didnt make it up btw-- another thing often said is that people working in research gradually know more and more about less and less till eventually they know everything about nothing - this is a problem imo, the level of compartmentalisation within science, scientist tend to know alot about a very narrow area of work but no more (and often less) than the well informed layman in other areas -- many of them also seem to have more than average faith in authorty and this seems to be more so in the biomedical areas and possibly less so in the physical science- thats my observation anyway as someone who started off in engineering and then moved into biophysics.

Mind if i use that line?

[King Stromba]

yeah course, I didnt make it up btw-- another thing often said is that people working in research gradually know more and more about less and less till eventually they know everything about nothing - this is a problem imo, the level of compartmentalisation within science, scientist tend to know alot about a very narrow area of work but no more (and often less) than the well informed layman in other areas -- many of them also seem to have more than average faith in authorty and this seems to be more so in the biomedical areas and possibly less so in the physical science- thats my observation anyway as someone who started off in engineering and then moved into biophysics.

I agree, the great scientists of the past were generalists. Now we have hundredsd of thousands of people who know everything there is to know about nothing that is important to anyone but a small group of equally focuses scientists that number about 5.

Dont you think this compartmentalisation is deliberatly put in place to make science easier to 'control'? Most scientists dont know what is going on in the next office, let alone being able to critically appraise a paper in another field.

I also agree that there seems to be too many so called intelligent scientists that are really unable to think for themselves. And by think i mean philosophise on alternative theories, research suppressed information and that sort of non linear thought process. The result is blind faith in their religion that they call science.

[nevajism]

just to add to that I would say that funding is also a very powerful method used to control science - unless you are independantly wealthy the only things that you can research are what are being funded - so if you want to look into alternative energy sources or the health benifits of a natural substance or the adverse effects of vaccines then you wont be able to as you wont get any money for it- and the reason for this of course is the commitees that allocate funding have experts with links to industry.

the problem is that the word science now effectively means believing what the scientific authorities say rather than obseving real phenomena and then testing theories against what you have directly observed which is what it should be- so effectively it has become a kind of new religion. for exampe in the case of vaccines if your child has a vaccine and then suddenly becomes ill within an hour - logic would tell us that the two events are probably linked but now invariably we are told that there are no links and all the studies have been done to show this- so effectively we are putting all our trust in the authoroties to do the science for us and ignoring what we observe with our own eyes. Just like so many other areas its the difference between collectivism and individualism- I would reccomend the books of ayn rand for anyone who wants to read more about this.

I agree, the great scientists of the past were generalists. Now we have hundredsd of thousands of people who know everything there is to know about nothing that is important to anyone but a small group of equally focuses scientists that number about 5.

Dont you think this compartmentalisation is deliberatly put in place to make science easier to 'control'? Most scientists dont know what is going on in the next office, let alone being able to critically appraise a paper in another field.

I also agree that there seems to be too many so called intelligent scientists that are really unable to think for themselves. And by think i mean philosophise on alternative theories, research suppressed information and that sort of non linear thought process. The result is blind faith in their religion that they call science.

[Bob8]

yeah course, I didnt make it up btw-- another thing often said is that people working in research gradually know more and more about less and less till eventually they know everything about nothing - this is a problem imo, the level of compartmentalisation within science, scientist tend to know alot about a very narrow area of work but no more (and often less) than the well informed layman in other areas -- many of them also seem to have more than average faith in authorty and this seems to be more so in the biomedical areas and possibly less so in the physical science- thats my observation anyway as someone who started off in engineering and then moved into biophysics.

I do not believe you.

There are a few obsessives in many walks of life, some of them might do a PhD, others will start encourageing people to read "the truth" about evil lizard overlords and the "Jewish hand" over the internet.

You two are obsessed with my qualifications, in a way that makes me suspect that you cannot encounter many qualified people in everyday life. The letters are not the relevent qualifications and I would be grateful if you could tear yourselves away from them. More relevent qualifications are that I have actually been in the process making vaccines, later as a development scientist, I developed processes for making vaccines. I have also acted as a consultant for companies making vaccines. As vaccines go, the area is quite large. Furthermore, only a small number of the books on my bookshelves are science books (thought there are some) - so to accuse me of being lost in an ivory tower has not the same ring of truth as accusing you two of being fantasists.

May I also point out the many thousands of people who would have ot be inon this conspriacy, including the people who would have invented flu, on purpose, how ever many thousand years ago.

I would say that having seen the industry up close is going to dissuade me from thinking that the authority is some all powerful all knowing beast. That is possibly why I do not believe in incredibly elaborate conspiracy theories about 9/11 or Jewish conspiracies like you two. If I had no power and no influence, then I might start to think of authority as some foreign mystical beast.

Having manufactuered, seen the discussions at a high level and been actively involved, I would take the vaccine. I would hope that my loved ones would also take the vaccine. You two are very good at highlighting possible side effects, so let us take time to consider how many people might die of the flu, about why the WHO take this so seriously.

General Melchard is more qualified than any of us about the effects of missing out on a vaccine, perhaps you would like to discuss his qualifications with him?

If I argue something, it will be critisised. You reject this burden of proof and insist we accept your word as faith. I will not and I hope that few others will.

[batfink]

Bob calm down, we wouldn't want you to blow a fuse.

[Bob8]

Bob calm down, we wouldn't want you to blow a fuse.

You are right.

To be fair, my posts are reasonably calm. However, they are risking peoples' safety for a giggle.

Also, it is hard to know how to reason with people who think that you should treat websites about the Jewish lizard overlords seriously, or you are just being closed minded.

I have had a couple of pm's from people asking genuine questions about the vaccines and I am reassuringly confident the same cannot be said of my colleagues on this thread. Also, I have put a couple of sane sites on my signature, so they cannot claim a win in the debate by dragging the arguement out.

PS: nevajism still has not got round to sending me a message about his PhD background and his insider information. Shall we have a sweepstake on when he will

[nevajism]

"May I also point out the many thousands of people who would have ot be inon this conspriacy, including the people who would have invented flu, on purpose, how ever many thousand years ago"

this is the usual argument used to debunk any conspiricy but it is completely wrong because of -COMPARTMENTALISATION-

think about the army everything is on a need to know basis, this is how compaies work too.

your main line of argument seems to be ad hominem

[Bob8]

"May I also point out the many thousands of people who would have to be in on this conspriacy, including the people who would have invented flu, on purpose, how ever many thousand years ago"

this is the usual argument used to debunk any conspiricy but it is completely wrong because of -COMPARTMENTALISATION-

think about the army everything is on a need to know basis, this is how compaies work too.

your main line of argument seems to be ad hominem

Whereas nothing can ever debunk a conspiracy theory, no matter how deranged (though I was almost swayed by you using capital letters).

I believe the army does not have the FDA round to inspect, or have to reveal it plans to them. Nor do they have clinical trials, with severe punishments for cheating.

I am still waiting for the pm from your deranged little self.

Are you concerned about the correlation between reduction in use of DDT and an increase in autism?

You are walking into a wall of logic each time, my dear little chap.

[PrivateerMk2]

...think about the army everything is on a need to know basis...

Is that so?

I know what you're getting, 'each part makes a component, but none know what the machine is', but outside the military (actually, even inside the military) that's damned near impossible to pull off. Civilians are just too self-centred and ill-disciplined, and who can blame them, given that their whole lives usually revolve around making money for someone else before dying and being forgotten about? I know that I'd feel no loyalty to any company and would spill the beans at the first sign of a brown envelope.

[Guest portwinestain]

'Jewish lizard overlords'

is a typical and researched response from those who have a vested interest in control through lies Bob.

You need to get over the thoughts that those who oppose being controlled by secrets societies, governments and corrupt bodies like the WHO live in bedsits with no braincells or power.

You still haven't told us what's in the Swine Flu vaccination and I doubt you ever will.

People around me are talking about this Bob, saying they will say no to it. I bet they haven't read a David Icke book between them which is actually very encouraging.

[Prime Realist 8]

Okay, Bob is talking about "A Jewish hand over the internet" and "Lizard Overlords". I think this tells you everything you need to know about his credibility, not the credibility of those with opposing views on the safety of vaccines, that he is trying to insinuate are loopy, biggoted and dumb.

Poor show, Bob. If you had anything useful to say, you would have stuck to the facts.

[The Realist]

I find people who throw around their qualifications quite crass to be honest. If an argument is sound then it doesnt need a phd qualification to support it. I tend to find that those who have to qualify their statements with their educational background are poor communicators and have to rely on the pieces of paper to convince people they are right, rather than the argument itself.

I also tend to find that those that attack others for not conforming to their way of thinking are generally poor leaders. Good at talking orders and following others but unable to find their own path to solutions.

Richard Dawkins is a classic example. His entire career is based on some pigeon breeders ramblings from 150 years ago.

Did you ever question your phd supervisor? Or did you lap up everything he told you like a good little student?

Unfortunately there are some arguments that require a detailed understanding of the science before you can make the meanungful decision to supprt them or not. That is why a relevant accademic qualification is often necesary. This applies in many areas not just medicine. Issues concerning the safety of the different types of nuclear reactors are a good example.

The general public really does not assess the evidence in such cases before making a decision. They just listen to the various 'experts' who are vocal in the media and choose which one to support.

As for medicines, there are no (or very few) completely safe ones. Everybody should understand this and make their decisions accordingly. You always need to balance the risk from taking the drug against the consequences of not taking it.

[The Realist]

Whereas nothing can ever debunk a conspiracy theory, no matter how deranged (though I was almost swayed by you using capital letters).

I believe the army does not have the FDA round to inspect, or have to reveal it plans to them. Nor do they have clinical trials, with severe punishments for cheating.

I am still waiting for the pm from your deranged little self.

Are you concerned about the correlation between reduction in use of DDT and an increase in autism?

You are walking into a wall of logic each time, my dear little chap.

Do you by any chance have a pharmaceutical background? Not, by the way, an insult unless I am insulting myself as well.

I'm afraid that many in the general public assume that correlation proves that one thing causes another. I don't know if this is true, but it is often stated there was a (positive) correlation between the increase in the stork population and increase in (human) births in Germany after one of the major wars in the last century.

[Peter Hun]

You are right.

To be fair, my posts are reasonably calm. However, they are risking peoples' safety for a giggle.

Try not to lose sight that you are arguing with morons. Natural selection still operates - a few thousand years ago they would have refused to believe that lions are dangerous and been eaten.

Today we have far, far too many people on the planet, if a few million die becuase they knowingly refuse a vaccine, does it matter?

[King Stromba]

just to add to that I would say that funding is also a very powerful method used to control science - unless you are independantly wealthy the only things that you can research are what are being funded - so if you want to look into alternative energy sources or the health benifits of a natural substance or the adverse effects of vaccines then you wont be able to as you wont get any money for it- and the reason for this of course is the commitees that allocate funding have experts with links to industry.

the problem is that the word science now effectively means believing what the scientific authorities say rather than obseving real phenomena and then testing theories against what you have directly observed which is what it should be- so effectively it has become a kind of new religion. for exampe in the case of vaccines if your child has a vaccine and then suddenly becomes ill within an hour - logic would tell us that the two events are probably linked but now invariably we are told that there are no links and all the studies have been done to show this- so effectively we are putting all our trust in the authoroties to do the science for us and ignoring what we observe with our own eyes. Just like so many other areas its the difference between collectivism and individualism- I would reccomend the books of ayn rand for anyone who wants to read more about this.

Thats a great post. I agree with pretty much everything you say. Most people think that science involves believing everything they read in journals. Science really just means measuring things and making observations. You can do that in your kitchen with a set of scales or collect your own data based on case studies of what you see around you.

Modern 'scientists' are quick to dismiss observations if they arnt published, but this is total madness. An observation is an observation even if it doesnt get edited and printed on paper in a 'marketing' journal.

[King Stromba]

I do not believe you.

There are a few obsessives in many walks of life, some of them might do a PhD, others will start encourageing people to read "the truth" about evil lizard overlords and the "Jewish hand" over the internet.

More relevent qualifications are that I have actually been in the process making vaccines, later as a development scientist, I developed processes for making vaccines. I have also acted as a consultant for companies making vaccines.

Then you are a vested interest, why should we listen to your opinion when you have a finacial interest in the area?

[Bob8]

Do you by any chance have a pharmaceutical background? Not, by the way, an insult unless I am insulting myself as well.

I'm afraid that many in the general public assume that correlation proves that one thing causes another. I don't know if this is true, but it is often stated there was a (positive) correlation between the increase in the stork population and increase in (human) births in Germany after one of the major wars in the last century.

Yes, pharma and biotech. Production, development and research.

The correlation is a terrible thing. To be fair, it seems the social sciences struggle with the difference between causality and casual correlation.

[King Stromba]

Unfortunately there are some arguments that require a detailed understanding of the science before you can make the meanungful decision to supprt them or not. That is why a relevant accademic qualification is often necesary. This applies in many areas not just medicine. Issues concerning the safety of the different types of nuclear reactors are a good example.

Since when did you have to study in academia in order to learn facts? This is totally illogical. Anyone can learn facts. Anyone can form opinions. Anyone can read information.

Knowledge is not limited to those who have places in academic positions, although i think many academics would like that information to be secretive to protect their perceived superiority. Which when you start learning the truth yourself you see to be a house of cards built on quicksand.

[Bob8]

Thats a great post. I agree with pretty much everything you say. Most people think that science involves believing everything they read in journals. Science really just means measuring things and making observations. You can do that in your kitchen with a set of scales or collect your own data based on case studies of what you see around you.

Modern 'scientists' are quick to dismiss observations if they arnt published, but this is total madness. An observation is an observation even if it doesnt get edited and printed on paper in a 'marketing' journal.

I would discourage you from taking marketing information at face value.

It is indeed about measurements, but you do have to take the measurements. One of you ming mongs pointed out that if a child is ill an hour after taking a vaccine, it is clearly caused by the vaccine. However, if we have a doctor merely look at a baby, it is common sense that one of those million is likely to fall ill in the next hour (assuming a slightly better than a one in a million chance), you would saw the doctor looking made the child ill.

Some flu vaccines can have minor side effects, nothing comparable to flu. We have to measure a million to see if that is the cause e.g.;

DeStefano F, Bhasin TK, Thompson WW, Yeargin-Allsopp M, Boyle C (2004). "Age at first measles–mumps–rubella vaccination in children with autism and school-matched control subjects: a population-based study in metropolitan Atlanta". Pediatrics 113 (2): 259–66.

Gillberg C, Heijbel H (1998). "MMR and autism". Autism 2 (4): 423–4.

Madsen KM, Hviid A, Vestergaard M et al. (2002). "A population-based study of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and autism". N Engl J Med 347 (19): 1477–82.

This requires proper measurement rather than talking nonsense on this forum.

[Bob8]

Then you are a vested interest, why should we listen to your opinion when you have a finacial interest in the area?

No, Dr Wakefield had a vested interest.

[Bob8]

Try not to lose sight that you are arguing with morons. Natural selection still operates - a few thousand years ago they would have refused to believe that lions are dangerous and been eaten.

Today we have far, far too many people on the planet, if a few million die becuase they knowingly refuse a vaccine, does it matter?

I do not think KS is like that. I think he is having fun by telling people that lions are safe. Bear-lite is bonkers, but KS is far more unpleasent.

[King Stromba]

It is indeed about measurements, but you do have to take the measurements. One of you ming mongs pointed out that if a child is ill an hour after taking a vaccine, it is clearly caused by the vaccine.

for exampe in the case of vaccines if your child has a vaccine and then suddenly becomes ill within an hour - logic would tell us that the two events are probably linked

Now you are just making stuff up. It makes your arguments look weak when you do this by the way.

That's bad science mate.

[King Stromba]

No, Dr Wakefield had a vested interest.

Does your job or career involve anything to do with vaccination? If it does then you have a vested interest. In which case you are no different than an estate agent wanting high house prices.

Obvioulsy you want people to take your vaccines. You financial security is based on this.

[Bob8]

Since when did you have to study in academia in order to learn facts? This is totally illogical. Anyone can learn facts. Anyone can form opinions. Anyone can read information.

Knowledge is not limited to those who have places in academic positions, although i think many academics would like that information to be secretive to protect their perceived superiority. Which when you start learning the truth yourself you see to be a house of cards built on quicksand.

...but, you Majesty, this thread was started by my pointing out a conference you could attend to learn more.

Did you forget?