Is "expensive" Wine Really Worth The Money?

[6538]

Okay, just been reading the thread about what luxury you'd have on a daily basis and someone mentioned wine, some particular one that Hemingway liked that cost the bloody earth was specifically brought up.

I'm not one who has ever been into expensive wine and have no experience (that I can recall) of proper expensive wine. Most I'd ever go to is around the 6 to 8 quid sort of mark (less for white), so I suppose you could realistically almost double that for the occasions you get heavily marked down stuff at the supermarket. To be honest though. just about everything I drink these days is home made from kits which is easily comparable to a decent £8 bought bottle and is far better than a lot of the sh1te you can buy.

When you start getting beyond that level, though, is there actually any appreciable improvement in the wine? I know that personal taste probably plays a large part but is there something quantifiably "better" if you pay, say £25 for a bottle than paying a tenner? Is a £30 bottle measurably twice as good as a £15 bottle and at what point does price cease to make any difference? I mean, surely an £800 bottle of Krug can't actually be one hundred times better than an £8 bottle of Sainsbury's Carva?

Anyone got any opinions on this?

[D.C.]

There are some nice wines available round the £8 mark.

Maybe push to £10 for a really nice white.

I've never spent more than £20 on a bottle, but every time I have spent more than £8-9 on a red I wished I hadn't, they tasted more like a £4 bottle

[Guest theboltonfury]

There are some nice wines available round the £8 mark.

Maybe push to £10 for a really nice white.

I've never spent more than £20 on a bottle, but every time I have spent more than £8-9 on a red I wished I hadn't, they tasted more like a £4 bottle

so true.

I'd love to know what I was doing when choosing wine.

[Guest DisposableHeroes]

Okay, just been reading the thread about what luxury you'd have on a daily basis and someone mentioned wine, some particular one that Hemingway liked that cost the bloody earth was specifically brought up.

I'm not one who has ever been into expensive wine and have no experience (that I can recall) of proper expensive wine. Most I'd ever go to is around the 6 to 8 quid sort of mark (less for white), so I suppose you could realistically almost double that for the occasions you get heavily marked down stuff at the supermarket. To be honest though. just about everything I drink these days is home made from kits which is easily comparable to a decent £8 bought bottle and is far better than a lot of the sh1te you can buy.

When you start getting beyond that level, though, is there actually any appreciable improvement in the wine? I know that personal taste probably plays a large part but is there something quantifiably "better" if you pay, say £25 for a bottle than paying a tenner? Is a £30 bottle measurably twice as good as a £15 bottle and at what point does price cease to make any difference? I mean, surely an £800 bottle of Krug can't actually be one hundred times better than an £8 bottle of Sainsbury's Carva?

Anyone got any opinions on this?

I don't think so, many cheap wines taste great. More that good enough for my palate. I doubt many people could tell the difference on a blind test.

[waitingandsaving]

I too can't really tell the difference between an expensive bottle and a cheap one.

I think if someone knows what they're buying, then expensive wine can taste great. But it's the knowledge that's the really valuable bit!

If I have to buy wine for dinner with a friend who's a bit of a wine snob, then I use the monthly recommendations in the wine pages of the food and drink secion of the newspaper, or in the foodie magazines. I've had good results with this tactic - I get a brief summary of what it's supposed to taste like, know the descriptive words I'm supposed to be able to notice in the drink, and know what supermarket to go to, and what price it'll be - winner all round!

Had a wine tasting evening at a friend's Hen night once - some of the very expensive wines were completely foul - and the general consensus was that everyone's favourite was the £6 bottle!

Just goes to show yet again that money does not buy taste.

[swissy_fit]

Okay, just been reading the thread about what luxury you'd have on a daily basis and someone mentioned wine, some particular one that Hemingway liked that cost the bloody earth was specifically brought up.

I'm not one who has ever been into expensive wine and have no experience (that I can recall) of proper expensive wine. Most I'd ever go to is around the 6 to 8 quid sort of mark (less for white), so I suppose you could realistically almost double that for the occasions you get heavily marked down stuff at the supermarket. To be honest though. just about everything I drink these days is home made from kits which is easily comparable to a decent £8 bought bottle and is far better than a lot of the sh1te you can buy.

When you start getting beyond that level, though, is there actually any appreciable improvement in the wine? I know that personal taste probably plays a large part but is there something quantifiably "better" if you pay, say £25 for a bottle than paying a tenner? Is a £30 bottle measurably twice as good as a £15 bottle and at what point does price cease to make any difference? I mean, surely an £800 bottle of Krug can't actually be one hundred times better than an £8 bottle of Sainsbury's Carva?

Anyone got any opinions on this?

1. Most people can't taste that lemonade is lemonade if you dye it a different colour.

2. Tests have shown that wine-drinkers show no preference for expensive wine (if the other is reasonable in quality) unless informed beforehand that it's expensive.

3. You may just be in the very small minority that are :

i) equipped with the taste buds and odour detectors to distinguish the subtleties of complex wines and

ii) equipped with the knowledge/experience to make some sense of what you're tasting.

So if you believe you're in this tiny group (an amazingly high number of people seem to believe that they are) then yes, it's worth it. Sometimes.

If you are the sort of person who attributes value to something (and by association to yourself) according to its cost(ie you buy expensive branded goods with prominent labels), then it may also be worth it.

Otherwise you might as well buy something reasonably priced that you're happy with.

[Kinky John]

Okay, just been reading the thread about what luxury you'd have on a daily basis and someone mentioned wine, some particular one that Hemingway liked that cost the bloody earth was specifically brought up.

I'm not one who has ever been into expensive wine and have no experience (that I can recall) of proper expensive wine. Most I'd ever go to is around the 6 to 8 quid sort of mark (less for white), so I suppose you could realistically almost double that for the occasions you get heavily marked down stuff at the supermarket. To be honest though. just about everything I drink these days is home made from kits which is easily comparable to a decent £8 bought bottle and is far better than a lot of the sh1te you can buy.

When you start getting beyond that level, though, is there actually any appreciable improvement in the wine? I know that personal taste probably plays a large part but is there something quantifiably "better" if you pay, say £25 for a bottle than paying a tenner? Is a £30 bottle measurably twice as good as a £15 bottle and at what point does price cease to make any difference? I mean, surely an £800 bottle of Krug can't actually be one hundred times better than an £8 bottle of Sainsbury's Carva?

Anyone got any opinions on this?

In general expensive wine offers different things to different people; to some people it's a very specific taste; to others it's an obscene expression of wealth and to still others it's just the romance of the whole thing. Personally, for me it's getting drunk followed by the pursuit of a very specific learned taste - I only worked my way up to 100 pound bottles of wine (not on a regular basis or anything) because I got hacked off with picking cheap wine I didn't like at the super market. Now I pursue a very specific well balanced taste and pay for it - which means that there are still plenty of 100 pound wines that I like a lot less than my favorite 6 pound bottles.

As to what is usually better in good wine; then some things are only really available in expensive wine. These are things such as the depth and rounded flavours from aging (it makes a huge difference), better balance of acidity and much clearer definition in tastes as well as far more detailed quality controlled and less bland mass production. Is a 100 pound bottle of wine 5 times better than a 20 pound bottle of wine then absolutely not. I would personally say it's about 1 1/2 times better if it's a specific taste your after. I have drunk a 300 pound bottle of wine before, and it was truely an experience; but not one I intend to repeat without winning the lottery.

If you look at some of the most expensive wine such as Bollinger's Vieilles Vignes then what they are often selling is the romance and the snobbery. Their literature mentions less about the taste and more about how it's made and how exclusive it is. For a lot of people, especially at the extremely pricey auction end it's just about ownership and power or speculation - very much like it is with art and housing.

[Pick It Down]

It's all quaffable with a drop of lemonade.

[redwine]

My only advice is that if you find a wine that you like just drink it don't take any notice of the fancy labels

Even a wine that has an AOC or controlled wine doesn't mean that you will like it

Its all about your own taste in wine

Drinking wine here in France is like drinking beer in England its everywhere

Where i work either you are an alcoholic or an ex- alcoholic

The day starts at 7am with a càfe and a little "white wine"

Mid -day resto Ricard or Pastis and half a bottle of red or rosè

Friday to celebrate the weekend at 4pm its 2 or 3 bottles of red or white

Its just the French way of living but i am never sure if i am drunk or sober and it showed on my earlier posts

Having said that they do not take alcoholism seriously a bloke at work went for a blood test and he had more wine in him than blood even the doctor was laughing me as well

[6538]

In general expensive wine offers different things to different people; to some people it's a very specific taste; to others it's an obscene expression of wealth and to still others it's just the romance of the whole thing. Personally, for me it's getting drunk followed by the pursuit of a very specific learned taste - I only worked my way up to 100 pound bottles of wine (not on a regular basis or anything) because I got hacked off with picking cheap wine I didn't like at the super market. Now I pursue a very specific well balanced taste and pay for it - which means that there are still plenty of 100 pound wines that I like a lot less than my favorite 6 pound bottles.

As to what is usually better in good wine; then some things are only really available in expensive wine. These are things such as the depth and rounded flavours from aging (it makes a huge difference), better balance of acidity and much clearer definition in tastes as well as far more detailed quality controlled and less bland mass production. Is a 100 pound bottle of wine 5 times better than a 20 pound bottle of wine then absolutely not. I would personally say it's about 1 1/2 times better if it's a specific taste your after. I have drunk a 300 pound bottle of wine before, and it was truely an experience; but not one I intend to repeat without winning the lottery.

If you look at some of the most expensive wine such as Bollinger's Vieilles Vignes then what they are often selling is the romance and the snobbery. Their literature mentions less about the taste and more about how it's made and how exclusive it is. For a lot of people, especially at the extremely pricey auction end it's just about ownership and power or speculation - very much like it is with art and housing.

Excellent post, cheers.

Couple of questions. Age; can a wine get too old, do you think? I mean, if a wine is aged for, say, twenty years, and is lovely after that, is it likely to stay that way for some time or will it eventually start to get a bit rubbish - or even better? I can't really believe that something that was bottled in 1800 is still a very nice wine today, or even is particularly drinkable, to be honest.

That £300 bottle you had. What would you say it was which made that so much better than a £100 bottle and how does that relate to the price; what I mean is, is there some reason associated with it's production why it costs so much that you can't do without to get the drinking experience you mentioned?

Also, I mentioned that I drink home made wine made from commercial kits. Anyone got any links to side-by-side, blind tasting comparisons between a decent quality shop-bought wine (maybe those up to twenty quid) and a wine made from a good quality home-brew kit? Would be interesting to see such a comparison.

[iLegallyBlonde]

On our honeymoon in Sorrento we accidentally ordered a £500 bottle of wine, far too long a story to type out, but basically we were on spaghetti for the rest of the honeymoon.

Anyway it was like nectar from the gods, absolutely beautiful I just thank god we didn't decide to have another bottle

[Prescience]

Wine in the UK suffers from a number of realities.

Most people buy from supermarkets: who don't keep their wine properly cellared and know little about it: other than perhaps the wine buyer.

Being lucky and having a place in France, I am able to do what the French do: I buy forward; and keep it to age and mature.

About a year after the time of La Vendange (harvest) then the young wine comes onto the market (Depending on type) and can be bought very economically for aging.

It is completely pointless however, laying wine down if it won't age much!

I'm currently drinking Medoc Cru Borgoise I've aged for two years that cost me circa € 4.50 a bottle. It knock spots off anything Waitrose (e.g.) sell for upwards of £15!

I also have cellered much superior Premier Cru bought early which can age (It has loads of tannin) bought here and there in the wooden boxes better wine comes in by the half dozen.

I wholly disagree with the earlier comment about the average person not being able to distinguish plnk from rather better wine: OK, they would not enjoy the ability in a blind tasting say, to recognise which grape variety was used in a wine: however they can certainly tell the difference between say, Algerian plonk and a half decent Bordeaux!

There is far too much snobbery and utter nonsense written and spoken about wine!

You know: "From the South side of the slope when the man treading the grapes has forgotten to first wash his feet." etc.

Anyone who really wants to learn more, should buy some starter books and learn about Terroire (Land) Ceppage (grape variety), Method (the way it is made) and region.

My wife and I drink vin ordinaire (Everyday wine) which costs from roughly £1 a bottle; in France.

For everyday wine don't sneer at wine boxes: they can offer excellent value!

As an example, in UK we are presently drinking a Cabernet Sauvignon vin de pays (Country wine) which can only gain that accreditation by careful attention to the production of the wine and it cost just € 12.95..........................for ten litres!

Work it out remembering a standard wine bottle is 75 cl or 3/4 of one Litre.

A very good way to learn about wine is to find a friendly local restauranter who imports his wiine and buys perhaps direct from the Negociant (Agent): and see what he recommends.

I have always found most really knowledgeable people are happy to share knowledge with the genuinly inquisitive.

Santé !

[profitofdoom]

Excellent post, cheers.

Couple of questions. Age; can a wine get too old, do you think? I mean, if a wine is aged for, say, twenty years, and is lovely after that, is it likely to stay that way for some time or will it eventually start to get a bit rubbish - or even better? I can't really believe that something that was bottled in 1800 is still a very nice wine today, or even is particularly drinkable, to be honest.

That £300 bottle you had. What would you say it was which made that so much better than a £100 bottle and how does that relate to the price; what I mean is, is there some reason associated with it's production why it costs so much that you can't do without to get the drinking experience you mentioned?

Also, I mentioned that I drink home made wine made from commercial kits. Anyone got any links to side-by-side, blind tasting comparisons between a decent quality shop-bought wine (maybe those up to twenty quid) and a wine made from a good quality home-brew kit? Would be interesting to see such a comparison.

Only certain wines take age.Good Bordeaux and Burgundies but even then only decent vintage years (1959,1961,1970) are kept for decades.Wines that are a hundred years old are probably more a curio than anything.All other wines mature in a relatively short period of time,six months to three years perhaps.After that they are over the hill and need to be drunk.

There is a danger of "corking" too.This is when the cork becomes porous and allows air in that corrupts the wine.Personally I think that after £10 a bottle or £20 in a restaurant the law of diminishing returns comes into play.

[Prescience]

Couple of questions. Age; can a wine get too old, do you think? I mean, if a wine is aged for, say, twenty years, and is lovely after that, is it likely to stay that way for some time or will it eventually start to get a bit rubbish - or even better? I can't really believe that something that was bottled in 1800 is still a very nice wine today, or even is particularly drinkable, to be honest.

Not all wine ages.

In order to age gracefully, it must have what is called "Length": with experience one can taste this when the wine is young.

So you buys a bottle, has a slurp and decides wheter it should age.

And then go back and buy a case or more for the cellar!

Aging nicely is normally due to Tannin: no tannin no aging. Simple as that really.

Even wine expected to take significant age can "Turn". A few years back I forgot I had a bottle of Valpolicella Amorone on the rack: let it go past its best time. £70 bottle. (I paid £7 when young and Asda marked it up incorrectly!)

It tasted like coke really....................................

My wife and I shared my last bottle of Chateau La Tour from a batch I purchased in Auchan in Perpignon in 1991, a few years back, with my best friend who also loves his wine and enjoys knowledge.

As I decanted it (To remove the lees and crystalised sugar sediment), we all drank our first share: and watched the wine turning brown as it oxidised in the air in the decanter!

Opened a bottle of Premier Cru St. Esteph last year: and it was 'orrible! been given to me and not cellared properly.

All wine also unfortunately can suffer a Malolactic (Secondary) Fermentation: and change its character completely.

Buying very old wine for thousands of pounds and thinking of actually drinking it, is rather silly: it's an investment.

Rather like buying an early Ferrari GTO (£10,000,000 now?) and parking it in Tesco's carpark!

Normally the cork dries out and the wine turns to vinegar: one can be lucky however, if it has been kept cellared in perfect humidity and temperature and regulary turned. This is normally only in the original maker's cellars.

[erranta]

Wine in the UK suffers from a number of realities.

Most people buy from supermarkets: who don't keep their wine properly cellared and know little about it: other than perhaps the wine buyer.

Being lucky and having a place in France, I am able to do what the French do: I buy forward; and keep it to age and mature.

About a year after the time of La Vendange (harvest) then the young wine comes onto the market (Depending on type) and can be bought very economically for aging.

It is completely pointless however, laying wine down if it won't age much!

I'm currently drinking Medoc Cru Borgoise I've aged for two years that cost me circa € 4.50 a bottle. It knock spots off anything Waitrose (e.g.) sell for upwards of £15!

I also have cellered much superior Premier Cru bought early which can age (It has loads of tannin) bought here and there in the wooden boxes better wine comes in by the half dozen.

I wholly disagree with the earlier comment about the average person not being able to distinguish plnk from rather better wine: OK, they would not enjoy the ability in a blind tasting say, to recognise which grape variety was used in a wine: however they can certainly tell the difference between say, Algerian plonk and a half decent Bordeaux!

There is far too much snobbery and utter nonsense written and spoken about wine!

You know: "From the South side of the slope when the man treading the grapes has forgotten to first wash his feet." etc.

Anyone who really wants to learn more, should buy some starter books and learn about Terroire (Land) Ceppage (grape variety), Method (the way it is made) and region.

My wife and I drink vin ordinaire (Everyday wine) which costs from roughly £1 a bottle; in France.

For everyday wine don't sneer at wine boxes: they can offer excellent value!

As an example, in UK we are presently drinking a Cabernet Sauvignon vin de pays (Country wine) which can only gain that accreditation by careful attention to the production of the wine and it cost just € 12.95..........................for ten litres!

Work it out remembering a standard wine bottle is 75 cl or 3/4 of one Litre.

A very good way to learn about wine is to find a friendly local restauranter who imports his wiine and buys perhaps direct from the Negociant (Agent): and see what he recommends.

I have always found most really knowledgeable people are happy to share knowledge with the genuinly inquisitive.

Santé !

I was amazed to see how the cheapo communes & others 'doctor' their wine acidity/taste by buying "off the peg" 'modified' yeasts which add 'notes' & different flavours to the end product (no matter what the methode, ceppage etc)

Personal summer favorite >

Lidl CAVA - usually less than £4.00 a bottle (tastes great) chilled to zero add a touch of Creme de Cassis for a 'fizzy' Kir!

[redwine]

Personally I think that after £10 a bottle or £20 in a restaurant the law of diminishing returns comes into play.

I could tommorow morning at my local "cave" or wine cellar and buy 15 litres of Cotès du Rhone wine for 20 pounds or 23 euros

They just fill up your jerrycan with a pump just the same as filling your petrol tank in your car

I agree with you that wines that are over a hundred years are more for the history and the past than for real wine

[Prescience]

I was amazed to see how the cheapo communes & others 'doctor' their wine acidity/taste by buying "off the peg" 'modified' yeasts which add 'notes' & different flavours to the end product (no matter what the methode, ceppage etc)

Personal summer favorite >

Lidl CAVA - usually less than £4.00 a bottle (tastes great) chilled to zero add a touch of Creme de Cassis for a 'fizzy' Kir!

Agreed.

That is why, of course, AC specifies precisely what can be added to change or create the character of a wine.

And also precisely how much of what can be added depending on the vintage.

Also try Aldi Creme d'Alsace for a cheapo Kir Royale.

Again € 3.95 a bottle.

Many people who rarely drink shampoo would be hard pressed to tell the difference between such as Cava and Alsace sparkling wines!

My wife adores champagne: I prefer a really good white.

That said I do like both the Louis and Theophile Roederer non-vintage.

Who can afford it these days?

[Prescience]

I could tommorow morning at my local "cave" or wine cellar and buy 15 litres of Cotès du Rhone wine for 20 pounds or 23 euros

They just fill up your jerrycan with a pump just the same as filling your petrol tank in your car

I agree with you that wines that are over a hundred years are more for the history and the past than for real wine

Bonjour mon amis !

Try the Carrefour 10 L boxes of Cabernet Sauvignon for €12.95.

Many of my French friends buy their wine "Loose": trouble is you then have to bottle it!

Unless, of course, you can drink 15 L in two days!

[6538]

Only certain wines take age.Good Bordeaux and Burgundies but even then only decent vintage years (1959,1961,1970) are kept for decades.Wines that are a hundred years old are probably more a curio than anything.All other wines mature in a relatively short period of time,six months to three years perhaps.After that they are over the hill and need to be drunk.

There is a danger of "corking" too.This is when the cork becomes porous and allows air in that corrupts the wine.Personally I think that after £10 a bottle or £20 in a restaurant the law of diminishing returns comes into play.

Why is it that only certain wines age well? Is it something in them and why would the vintage make any difference to what is essentially the same variety of fruit that is going into it?

[Guest AuntJess]

I don't think so, many cheap wines taste great. More that good enough for my palate. I doubt many people could tell the difference on a blind test.

IMO it isn't just about taste. It is about the way it 'sits'. I have never been able to drink red wine without getting a thick head, until someone introduced me to Chateau Margaux.

All coloured alcoholic beverages have 'congeners' - impurities which give one a hangover. CM doesn't appear to have any ill effects, Mayhap 'cos its' been fermenting so long that the congeners, ferment out or summat. It's s lovely drink which I could never ever afford myself, which is why I included it in the 'luxury' thread.

The man who gave me this wine was a millionnaire, and could well afford it, but even he was drinking it for a special occasion.

[Prescience]

Why is it that only certain wines age well? Is it something in them and why would the vintage make any difference to what is essentially the same variety of fruit that is going into it?

The main difference between "Good" Years, "Poor" years and "Vintage" years is th amount of sugar in the grapes.

The Vendange doesn't start until the sugar content reaches a certain minimum level.

Waiting for that level by putting off picking exposes the vines to more uncertain conditions: including perhaps much rain.

There are so many variables with grapes and viticulture and oneology it can be mind numbing.

In the old days the vineyard's resident "Expert" dictated when the vendange could safely commence: today it's normally done by analysing the grape sugar using a refraction device: and spot checks from the Commune's AC officers.

And excellent way to get into this subject is probably read Patricia Atkinson's books.

Amazing and incredible lady and she assures me that the story she tells is totally true: i.e. no knowledge of wine and couldn't speak French when she and her ex-spouse moved to Bergerac in early 1990.

Now she is a top taster!

http://www.cdywine.com/

[6538]

Not all wine ages.

In order to age gracefully, it must have what is called "Length": with experience one can taste this when the wine is young.

So you buys a bottle, has a slurp and decides wheter it should age.

And then go back and buy a case or more for the cellar!

Aging nicely is normally due to Tannin: no tannin no aging. Simple as that really.

Even wine expected to take significant age can "Turn". A few years back I forgot I had a bottle of Valpolicella Amorone on the rack: let it go past its best time. £70 bottle. (I paid £7 when young and Asda marked it up incorrectly!)

It tasted like coke really....................................

My wife and I shared my last bottle of Chateau La Tour from a batch I purchased in Auchan in Perpignon in 1991, a few years back, with my best friend who also loves his wine and enjoys knowledge.

As I decanted it (To remove the lees and crystalised sugar sediment), we all drank our first share: and watched the wine turning brown as it oxidised in the air in the decanter!

Opened a bottle of Premier Cru St. Esteph last year: and it was 'orrible! been given to me and not cellared properly.

All wine also unfortunately can suffer a Malolactic (Secondary) Fermentation: and change its character completely.

Buying very old wine for thousands of pounds and thinking of actually drinking it, is rather silly: it's an investment.

Rather like buying an early Ferrari GTO (£10,000,000 now?) and parking it in Tesco's carpark!

Normally the cork dries out and the wine turns to vinegar: one can be lucky however, if it has been kept cellared in perfect humidity and temperature and regulary turned. This is normally only in the original maker's cellars.

Okay; Tannin and aging. Am I right in saying that Tannins somehow precipitate out of the wine causing the flavour to change and this is what creates sediments, especially in Red wines?

So what causes a wine to "turn", if you exclude the possibility of air getting in?

Also, what do I buy from Sainsburys today to end up with a 70 quid bottle in a few years????

Old wine as an investment; Why? Surely the point of wine is to drink. So, why bother buying a 100 year old bottle of wine if it's utter sh1te? I can understand paying large money for a jug of wine that is 1000's of years old, purely for the rarety factor of having something from very ancient times but not much else. I don't think that old wine is comparable to an old car. The wine was only ever intended for one purpose when it was made - to be drunk - the Ferrari to be driven. At least with the latter, can use it repeatedly and will perform the same way as it did when it was new; the former you can use only once and will probably be far below it's former standard. Where then is the sensible investment theory behind the wine? You aren't actually getting a better product by leaving it in a cellar. Be nice if a Ferrari 250 GTO left in a garage for 50 years came out looking just as good but with the performance of a F430!!!

[R K]

I don't know if anyone saw James May and Oz Clarke's Wine Adventure series.

They had a comedic wander through France a couple of years ago in an old Jaguar, and then another one going around California in an RV. May was an avowed anti wine-ponce and Clarke is of course a well known wine ponce.

I can't find the start of the French series on youtube, but here's a clip if anyone's interested. Others are up there.

I've never spent more than a tenner (outside a restaurant) on a bottle of wine, except Champagne, mostly because I'm a tightwad.

[mitchbux]

IMO it isn't just about taste. It is about the way it 'sits'. I have never been able to drink red wine without getting a thick head, until someone introduced me to Chateau Margaux.

All coloured alcoholic beverages have 'congeners' - impurities which give one a hangover. CM doesn't appear to have any ill effects, Mayhap 'cos its' been fermenting so long that the congeners, ferment out or summat. It's s lovely drink which I could never ever afford myself, which is why I included it in the 'luxury' thread.

The man who gave me this wine was a millionnaire, and could well afford it, but even he was drinking it for a special occasion.

AJ, I generally suffer from the same problem when I drink reds, even one glass (I was OK until I had children :angry: ).

It might be worth you trying the Ravenswood wines, not cheap, but I don't get a bad head with them.

[6538]

I was amazed to see how the cheapo communes & others 'doctor' their wine acidity/taste by buying "off the peg" 'modified' yeasts which add 'notes' & different flavours to the end product (no matter what the methode, ceppage etc)

Personal summer favorite >

Lidl CAVA - usually less than £4.00 a bottle (tastes great) chilled to zero add a touch of Creme de Cassis for a 'fizzy' Kir!

I wouldn't have thought that using specific yeast would be considered "doctoring" your wine. Surely it's better and more professional that just letting any old rubbish that happens to be on the grapes ferment the wine?