What Was The Greatest Battle

[Quoth]

A GP friend of mine once told me that every Summer he sees no end of women who return from holiday 'encounters' in Greece where they got something far more painful than just a close encounter with a bushy moustache!

So what are you saying? They still pump with Spartan blood?

*cough*

Q

[pl1]

2. Those Welsh blokes in that sheep station in South Africa with that bloke who kept telling people to only blow the bl**dy doors off!

Trumped up nonsense designed to deflect the greatest defeat on the British Imperial Army by a native force a few hours earlier.

Although 'Hookie' sure did give 'em hell!

[Quoth]

Trumped up nonsense designed to deflect the greatest defeat on the British Imperial Army by a native force a few hours earlier.

However gallant the defence may have been the high number of VC's awarded certainly was spin to cloud the defeat of the previous day!

Q

[athe]

However gallant the defence may have been the high number of VC's awarded certainly was spin to cloud the defeat of the previous day!

Whilst certainly written from a British perspective, the book "The Washing of the Spears" gives a very interesting account of the rise of the Zulu Nation under Shaka, and the subsequent war. The section on Rorke's Drift, based on campaign diaries and dispatches, paints a very different, but no less heroic picture of the battle from the film. The book is very much worth a read.

Trumped up nonsense designed to deflect the greatest defeat on the British Imperial Army by a native force a few hours earlier.

Although 'Hookie' sure did give 'em hell!

Hook gets a bit of an unfair rap in the film.

[athe]

Trumped up nonsense designed to deflect the greatest defeat on the British Imperial Army by a native force a few hours earlier.

Although 'Hookie' sure did give 'em hell!

Also this is a little harsh. Chelmsford had taken most of the fighting force away to chase a Zulu feint, leaving only a skeleton fighting force at the camp at Isandlwana. Of the 1300 British killed there only around 500 were infantry, the rest being irregulars, native levies, and some artillery men (but only 2 cannon). These men held out for almost 10 hours against a force of 20,000. Tactically disastrous in terms of the leadership, but the men at Isandlwana fought to well beyond the last bullet.

It was also strategically disastrous for Cetshwayo who had been hoping for a negotiated peace settlement, but in fact goaded the British into a full military response rather than the minor expeditionary force it had sent to that point, leading to the end of the Zulu nation as an independent state.

edited for spelling

[Quoth]

Whilst certainly written from a British perspective, the book "The Washing of the Spears" gives a very interesting account of the rise of the Zulu Nation under Shaka, and the subsequent war. The section on Rorke's Drift, based on campaign diaries and dispatches, paints a very different, but no less heroic picture of the battle from the film. The book is very much worth a read.

It is interesting to note that Hlobane, which could be regarded as a colonial mini-Isandhlwana, also had quite a high VC count.

Regards,

Q

[indirectapproach]

A long time ago I listened to a very interesting thing on radio 4 about Isandluwana.

They interviewed the elderly grandsons of the Zulus who had fought their.

All the grandsons spoke about the great respect their grandfathers had for the men they killed that day and how their victims had fought like lions.

Apparently Cetswayo wept when he saw what was left of his army afterwards because he knew he had lost the war because he had lost so many of his best troops.

It made stirring listening at the time.

Having read some written accounts I'm not so sure now. Didn't the position of a large number of the skeletons indicate a lot of people had been killed in flight and isn't this mirrored by the desperate attempt to save the colours?

Maybe the Zulu had the good manners to avert their gaze from the panic and focus on the courage, of which I am sure there was a great deal.

[jonewer]

Having read some written accounts I'm not so sure now. Didn't the position of a large number of the skeletons indicate a lot of people had been killed in flight and isn't this mirrored by the desperate attempt to save the colours?

Maybe the Zulu had the good manners to avert their gaze from the panic and focus on the courage, of which I am sure there was a great deal.

Yes, there was a rout. Some soldiers fled when the firing line broke (jolly sensible thing to do if you ask me). Other stood and fought because they couldnt do much else. The veld would have been as high as your head at the time, broken ground, and the river in flood when the got there.... few made it across and those that did were killed by hostile Zulus on the Natal side of the river.

I walked the route that the fugitives took from Isandlwahna to the eponmymous Fugitives Drift and then picked up the trail on the other side to Rorke's Drift.

One of the things that was really haunting was the pattern of the cairns (the skeletons were buried and the graves marked with white stone cairns. One skeleton=small cairn. Whole bunch=big cairn), and the way you would see a string of small cairns with the occaisonal knot of large cairns, where an NCO had rallied his troops and a stand fought. The whole frenetic scene played out in your imagination as you walked.....

edit- I hate to sound cynical but the whole save the colours thing is really flashmanesque romaticised victorian bunkum.

[dremmler]

try this if you're interested- brilliant resource!

http://www.britishbattles.com/zulu-war/isandlwana.htm

[pl1]

Also this is a little harsh. Chelmsford had taken most of the fighting force away to chase a Zulu feint, leaving only a skeleton fighting force at the camp at Isandlwana. Of the 1300 British killed there only around 500 were infantry, the rest being irregulars, native levies, and some artillery men (but only 2 cannon). These men held out for almost 10 hours against a force of 20,000. Tactically disastrous in terms of the leadership, but the men at Isandlwana fought to well beyond the last bullet.

It was also strategically disastrous for Cetshwayo who had been hoping for a negotiated peace settlement, but in fact goaded the British into a full military response rather than the minor expeditionary force it had sent to that point, leading to the end of the Zulu nation as an independent state.

edited for spelling

I don't think Benjamin Disraeli would have completely disagreed with me & Chelmsford's decision to split his force must rank as one of the more idiotic decisions of Victorian times.

I remember reading when Hook's daughters saw the film Zulu, they walked out in protest at his depiction.

[jonewer]

I remember reading when Hook's daughters saw the film Zulu, they walked out in protest at his depiction.

I wouldnt blame them. The film depicted Hook as some kind of criminal. He wasnt. At All.

I don't think Benjamin Disraeli would have completely disagreed with me & Chelmsford's decision to split his force must rank as one of the more idiotic decisions of Victorian times.

In hindsight maybe. In reality, there were easily enough men to defend the camp had they formed a defensible firing line that couldnt be flanked. Which would have been a pretty good idea, specially considering that it was an excellent piece of ground to fight a defnsive battle. But they didnt. Which is why they died.

Blaming Chelmsford for that is like blaming Harold for sending the militia home after Stamford Bridge. Hindsight is always 20/20.

[indirectapproach]

If the Brits had formed a Laager they would probably not have been overrun.

[TW11]

All this talk about Rorke's Drift made me watch Zulu again last night. Great film.

I went to Rorke's Drift last year. It's nicely done - not at all commercialised. They haven't even bothered with the road - 40 minutes off the main road on a dirt track - a bit challenging for the VW Polo hire car I was in, but for me it just added to the whole experience. In fact I gave up on the track from the south cos I thought the car was going to get wrecked. Was just about doable on the track from Dundee side.

Also went to Isandhlwana and Blood River. Left me with a lot of respect for the Zulu. The whole area is worth a visit if that's your thing. Lots of Anglo/Zulu/Boer battlefields.

[profitofdoom]

If the Brits had formed a Laager they would probably not have been overrun.

Making up for it now though.

[hilltop]

Me vs PC World.

Brand new printer that wouldn't print.

I lost that particular battle, but I'm determined to win the war.

They're evil bar5tards - the lot of them.

Good for you. Do not weaken. You have persuaded me not to buy from PC World. That's PC WORLD.

[indirectapproach]

"If the Brits had formed a Laager they would probably not have been overrun."

"Making up for it now though."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana

"The discovery of the British line so far out from the camp has led Ian Knight to conclude that the British were defending too large a perimeter."

That bit is at the end of the article.

Compare with,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana

[profitofdoom]

"If the Brits had formed a Laager they would probably not have been overrun."

"Making up for it now though."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana

"The discovery of the British line so far out from the camp has led Ian Knight to conclude that the British were defending too large a perimeter."

That bit is at the end of the article.

Compare with,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana

It wasn't a serious reply.A pun on Laager/Lager implying the Brits are P***heads.

[indirectapproach]

Please forgive me for being so dull.

I should have said,

"If the Brits had had a Lager, they wouldn't have been overrun."

[jonewer]

All this talk about Rorke's Drift made me watch Zulu again last night. Great film.

I went to Rorke's Drift last year. It's nicely done - not at all commercialised. They haven't even bothered with the road - 40 minutes off the main road on a dirt track - a bit challenging for the VW Polo hire car I was in, but for me it just added to the whole experience. In fact I gave up on the track from the south cos I thought the car was going to get wrecked. Was just about doable on the track from Dundee side.

Also went to Isandhlwana and Blood River. Left me with a lot of respect for the Zulu. The whole area is worth a visit if that's your thing. Lots of Anglo/Zulu/Boer battlefields.

I went there a long time ago. Glad to hear its not over-commercialised.

Shame David Rattray got murdered though.....

Spioen Kop is well worth a visit also. Its got a dinky nature reserve around it too.

[Krackersdave]

Bannockburn.....

Scots outnumbered 4 to 1.....

Outcome 11,700 dead Englishmen and freedom for a small nation....

Wow - can you imagine the effort needed to kill 12 thousand Englishmen??

All joking aside it's a classic example of an excellent commander vanquishing a larger force by using the landscape to control and restrict of the movements of the much more mobile enemy force.

Good old - fix 'em place and grind em down.

[TW11]

I went there a long time ago. Glad to hear its not over-commercialised.

Shame David Rattray got murdered though.....

Spioen Kop is well worth a visit also. Its got a dinky nature reserve around it too.

The shop there had some pictures up of David Rattray and I had read up on him before I went. I spoke to the locals about him. He is held in very high regard.

It was only after my visit that I read a book on the Boer war and I realised where Liverpool football club got the name for the Kop end of Anfield (and I call myself a Liverpool fan, too). Wish I went to Spion Kop now.

I wasn't massively keen on going to SA at all, it ticks all the boxes of places not to visit: potentially dangerous, no pub culture and bloody hot; but I would go back in an instant. Absolutely awesome place.