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bill still

Anarchy Is Not Good Economy

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In this Forum, it's difficult to discuss the current economic situation when anarchists are onboard who won't even agree than any governmental system, no matter how it is configured, is worthwhile. Therefore, no economic system would suit their aims either. It's pretty tough to discuss the economy rationally when no economy is their answer. I suspect that most of the "anarchists" on this Forum do not understand the ramifications of anarchy. In short, it is hostile to both government and freedom.

Edited by bill still

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It would seem to me that revolution could well be destructive anarchy as seen in France in the late 18th century, as you described above.

However, its very, very hard to see anything close to a revolution with, crucially I believe, the media being controlled to protect the world elites. So I would say your point is moot.

Incidentally, once you know about the moneymasters/illuminati, its amazing how often they could be alluded to, or their plans challenged, in the media but IT NEVER HAPPENS!

Does this frustrate you as much as me Bill?!

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Freedom is an odd concept when you start to think about it.

If I am required to do or not do something by another or group of others, I am not free.

While there are laws or customs, where my actions have consequences I am not free.

To take it to the most extreme, while there is cause and effect, I am not free. If I jump off a cliff breaking both my legs, I am no longer free to walk, but then I have never been free to fly.

True freedom is only for the gods, mortals can only dream of such things.

Probably not quite what you were thinking, but it's a free world ;)

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Two separate issues here, and it could end up making the thread a bit confusing. Anarchism, and there are many different types of anarchism from Collectivist anarchism(Bakunin), Anarcho Communist (Kroptkin), Anarcho capitalist(Ron Paul), Anarco syndicalist (Chomsky)etc..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_schools_of_thought

The popular media-concept of anarchism is total lawlessness, and the OP of the thread has given examples from the French Revolution, and this is in my opinion a separate topic.

I would say that the French revolution was not an example of media-concept-anarchy, regardless of what the mainstream intellectual's say, or even an attempt at an anarchist society. The French revolution was a shift in power away from one group of elites(the royals) to another group of elites( the richest members of the bourgeoisie) via control of the The Third estate. The people were being used as the tool that made that power shift possible, and as soon as that powershift had taken place the ambitions, hopes and wishes of the people were halted in their tracks, just as they were once the US had won independence from Britain.

The Violence seen at the time of the period known as The Terror was as nothing compared to the violence inflicted on the French population in the years proceeding the revolution by the Royals, and further more, the Great Terror was in reaction to the threat of foreign armies that were attempting to invade France and reinstall the monarchy. The commanders of these armies had issued orders to kill everyone defending Paris, therefore death for anyone convicted of treason at this time would be an act of self defense.

I like Mark Steels defense of the French Revolution, Chomsky has good thoughts on the matter also.

http://www.marksteelinfo.com/audiovideo/default.asp

Noam Chomsky: Government In The Future 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Onzu7TYRt0...feature=related

Edited by enrieb

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Yup. No problem.

Freedom is an odd concept when you start to think about it.

If I am required to do or not do something by another or group of others, I am not free.

While there are laws or customs, where my actions have consequences I am not free.

To take it to the most extreme, while there is cause and effect, I am not free. If I jump off a cliff breaking both my legs, I am no longer free to walk, but then I have never been free to fly.

True freedom is only for the gods, mortals can only dream of such things.

Probably not quite what you were thinking, but it's a free world ;)

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From what I remember, the greatest proponent of uber libertarianism on this forum does not want anarchy.

He wants education.

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It would seem to me that revolution could well be destructive anarchy as seen in France in the late 18th century, as you described above.

However, its very, very hard to see anything close to a revolution with, crucially I believe, the media being controlled to protect the world elites. So I would say your point is moot.

Incidentally, once you know about the moneymasters/illuminati, its amazing how often they could be alluded to, or their plans challenged, in the media but IT NEVER HAPPENS!

Does this frustrate you as much as me Bill?!

You would almost think they had some sort of control over the media.............

sFun_whistle.gif

post-16847-1249954396.gif

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I don't know. I guess I'm immune to it. When I first put MM out, I thought it would cause a huge explosion, but there was just a little thud.

You would almost think they had some sort of control over the media.............

sFun_whistle.gif

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The French revolution was then controlled by the elites, just as it would be today for their own purposes. Once anarchy reigns, worse moves in to seize control.

It would seem to me that revolution could well be destructive anarchy as seen in France in the late 18th century, as you described above.

However, its very, very hard to see anything close to a revolution with, crucially I believe, the media being controlled to protect the world elites. So I would say your point is moot.

Incidentally, once you know about the moneymasters/illuminati, its amazing how often they could be alluded to, or their plans challenged, in the media but IT NEVER HAPPENS!

Does this frustrate you as much as me Bill?!

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"But the age of chivalry is gone. That of sophisters, economists, and calculators, has succeeded; and the glory of Europe is extinguished for ever."

Rationalism is the problem, which has lead to further terrors in modern history. Before the world was magian and full of wonders. Beware the economists and calculators!

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Are you saying you liked this?

Hehehe. You are much more educated than I.

"But the age of chivalry is gone. That of sophisters, economists, and calculators, has succeeded; and the glory of Europe is extinguished for ever."

Rationalism is the problem, which has lead to further terrors in modern history. Before the world was magian and full of wonders. Beware the economists and calculators!

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Are you saying you liked this?

Hehehe. You are much more educated than I.

Well, I do not know about being much more educated. You have obviously put a lot of effort into your particular field. But I am more skeptical of dogmatism wherever I find it. I think the more widely read we are and the more history we look at the more we know we don't know in a strict and ideological sense. The Italian philosopher Vico talked of "fantasia" an imaginative quality which could appreciate another ages thoughts in terms of themselves. I think this quality has been largely lost, our minds are too disciplined by a rationalist approach, and perhaps this is the prime condition by which real freedom and dignity are lost [as opposed to the abstractions].

As a "pre-Raphaelite", I liked the post. Edmund Burke was an interesting thinker, but sadly his ideas have largely been reduced and distorted, then commandeered by the libertarian brigade.

It is like everyone has a fragment of the truth and runs with it as if it were the whole truth. With this in mind, I would suggest an imaginative "syncretic" approach is needed besides our typically analytical frame of mind, which would help us to both appreciate the multiplicity of ideas out there and escape from the confinement of our own peculiar ones.

Edited by roman holiday

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A few years ago I read a news article about a ranking of living standards in African nations; Somalia, that awful, horrible, anarchic hell-hole, was rated higher than the vast majority of nations in Africa which have governments (I tried to find it but there was nothing obvious on Google and I don't seem to have a bookmark). Of course this was before the 'War on Terror' devastated the country by trying to force a government on them again... which shows the fundamental problem with anarchy today: a country with no government can generally be pushed around by a country which has one.

Through the 20th century government in the democratic nations was generally useful despite its numerous flaws, because the benefits of centralisation outweighed the costs (in non-democratic nations, of course, it was generally murderous and utterly corrupt and only survived because of the benefits centralisation provided in maximising state violence). Today, however, we're heading into an era where Injin will be able to buy a twenty megaton protest vote in his local Nukes'r'Us store -- or the equivalent impact from bio-weapons, nanotech, dropping an asteroid on your head, etc -- and a centralised government will just be a target-rich environment. The choice then will be minimal, consensual government, total anarchy or electrodes in the brain... so take your pick.

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A few years ago I read a news article about a ranking of living standards in African nations; Somalia, that awful, horrible, anarchic hell-hole, was rated higher than the vast majority of nations in Africa which have governments

Bad article written by someone who's never been to africa.

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Bad article written by someone who's never been to africa.

Pretty easy to compare somalia before and after the state vanished though.

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From what I remember, the greatest proponent of uber libertarianism on this forum does not want anarchy.

He wants education.

My experience is that most libertarians are not anarchists and that most anarchists are actually socialists. Anarchy is not even close to synonymous with libertarianism.

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No government is going to be perfect - its impossible.

The thing is, its better than the alternative and we have to work to change government so it is as perfect as it can be.

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Pretty easy to compare somalia before and after the state vanished though.

Woman worth 50 camels, a man worth 100 camels.

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Anarchy is the route chosen by those left behind in a belief system or society that benefited the rest.

The belief system or society is an enhancement of the need for basic human survival, and as such, it creates notions and lies upon which people become disproportionately advantaged. Those that are left behind grow increasingly cynical of the falsehoods society bases itself on.

When absolute anarchy rules, the need for human survival becomes paramount. In this scenario, those left behind do as well as the rest.

That's why there is always an anarchistic element to all societies and why there is borderline anarchistic opinion voiced on this forum and others. It's a chance for the people locked out by others' lies to regain control, or at least they see it like that.

Its true anarchy benefits no-one. But the alternative, some utopia, should be based on truths, not lies. Then it is inclusive and alternatives need never even exist. Perhaps it is only after a reset, a descent into anarchy, that a new belief system can be born and those left out before can join and thrive.

Edited for spelling and grammar.

Edited by AvidFan

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