Nhs Cuts

[Guest skullingtonjoe]

If you don't like politicians that lie to you , you are going to rapidly run out of options. They all lie to you, in one way or another

Yep

[piece of paper]

nope, CST is correct.

when it all becomes clear, you definetly get a feeling of sadness & enlightenment at the same time I think.

I still get this from time to time when I figure the next thing out.

Thanks to all reading that helped me get educated. I have never felt happier in my life, same goes for Mrs GOM.

Are you sure that this post was meant for this site?

p-o-p

[CokeSnortingTory]

As you said previously - trying to have a reasonable debate with some people who don`t know what they are talking about is a waste of time; I`m beginning to agree with you more and more

I've had plenty of experience with a close member of my family who had severe mental health problems - although she's OK now. 30 years of Valium was no help.

You should really re-read your own comments - they are more enlightening than you may think.

[Guest skullingtonjoe]

I've had plenty of experience with a close member of my family who had severe mental health problems - although she's OK now. 30 years of Valium was no help.

You should really re-read your own comments - they are more enlightening than you may think.

OK - but that`s one individual (and I`m sorry to hear that btw - I`ve used valium (or diazepam) and it`s highly addictive and not a very pleasant experience at all).

There has been research to suggest that there are genetic links in occurences of schizophrenia - certainly, I can think of some immediate family members who acted in very destructive, irrational and impulsive ways. I take a lot of Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) and they have turned my life around to the point where I can accept being accused of `contradicting myself` with only mild feelings of umbrage, instead of throwing my computer through a window.

From my own experience of life and having had to live in my own brain I believe there is merit to what you have said about external factors, but if you expose two people to the same stimuli you will get two different brain responses, even if they are imperceptible. I believe that I was born with dysfunctional neurotransmitters and that I cannot respond to certain stimuli in a reasonable manner. The environment I grew up in may well have exacerbated my problems, no doubt about that at all. Of course, without proof, it is only a belief, not a fact.

I don`t think that makes me a `benefit scrounger` or a `malingerer`, but if people think otherwise that is their prerogative in a reasonably free society

Edited August 6, 2009 by skullingtonjoe

[CokeSnortingTory]

OK - but that`s one individual (and I`m sorry to hear that btw - I`ve used valium (or diazepam) and it`s highly addictive and not a very pleasant experience at all).

There has been research to suggest that there are genetic links in occurences of schizophrenia - certainly, I can think of some immediate family members who acted in very destructive, irrational and impulsive ways. I take a lot of Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) and they have turned my life around to the point where I can accept being accused of `contradicting myself` with only mild feelings of umbrage, instead of throwing my computer through a window.

From my own experience of life and having had to live in my own brain I believe there is merit to what you have said about external factors, but if you expose two people to the same stimuli you will get two different brain responses, even if they are imperceptible. I believe that I was born with dysfunctional neurotransmitters and that I cannot respond to certain stimuli in a reasonable manner. The environment I grew up in may well have exacerbated my problems, no doubt about that at all. Of course, without proof, it is only a belief, not a fact.

I don`t think that makes me a `benefit scrounger` or a `malingerer`, but if people think otherwise that is their prerogative in a reasonably free society

Yes, but to an extent we are arguing at cross purposes - I'm not denying the existence of mental illnesses, or that they can be genetic.

What I am saying is that a lot of what gets called "depression" is unhappiness/distress that is caused by external factors.

As an adjunct to that, an ontological case of "depression" is probably a sign of a more significant mental illness, so again I'm not sure that "depression" is the correct description of the illness.

[Guest skullingtonjoe]

Yes, but to an extent we are arguing at cross purposes - I'm not denying the existence of mental illnesses, or that they can be genetic.

What I am saying is that a lot of what gets called "depression" is unhappiness/distress that is caused by external factors.

As an adjunct to that, an ontological case of "depression" is probably a sign of a more significant mental illness, so again I'm not sure that "depression" is the correct description of the illness.

Agreed. But exactly how do we say that a person has crossed the line from being `depressed` to being `unhappy`? (and vice-versa) Or - as you may feel - is being depressed a case of extreme unhappiness / distress?

At this point I have to bow out from this discussion as I think it`s pretty much like asking `how long is a piece of string?` Psychiatrists cannot pin down a firm definition of the concept of `depression` and I believe it will be used as a `catch-all` category for mental illnesses that cannot be readily identified. I don`t believe that we will ever find a clear answer.

I am sorry if I seemed a little irked previously - I am very touchy about mental illness and even the slightest hint of what I may perceive to be a `denial` is enough to send me off into a rant. I think it`s pretty clear that I`m not very happy with the way my life has turned out, but I am trying to find some kind of sense and meaning to my existence in the best way I can, (which is very difficult as most people are defined by their jobs - take away the job and, sadly, you often destroy the person).

[bpw]

If you are any good, as an academic, and in a useful faculty (engineering, science etc.) then move to the USA where there are lovely Universities in very livable towns with comparatively low-cost, fab, homes. The message is clear, the UK wants the young to pay for the sins of the old. There are no reasonable prospects for anyone under 45 get out and let them rot.

Purely from a self-preservation standpoint, that's entirely sensible: he stands a better chance of keeping his job for longer under Labour, or of avoiding a pay cut. Dominic Grieve has already said that cutting doctors' salaries is on his agenda, and we've been training up more doctors than there is a need for over the last decade or so (something like three new medical schools have opened).

For the last year or so, the university department in which I work has been appointing a lecturer 'A' (starting salary £26k) every time a senior lecturer (£46k) or prof (£58k) leaves or retires. I've been informally advised to delay putting in my application for promotion to SL until 'it's absolutely bulletproof' (my boss's words), because the assessment panels have been instructed by the senior university management to nit-pick like mad and throw out any applications they can. Cutting back on senior staff and replacing them with more junior ones is a well-established way for the public sector to make savings without actually reducing the workforce, and so if your friend is a hospital consultant (i.e. the most expensive type of employee in the place barring senior management), I can understand him feeling vulnerable.

Edited August 6, 2009 by bpw

[Minos]

Same old tedious threads, this site is rapidly becoming a caricature of itself. So many wise people, who seem to be knowledgable on so many subjects. FWIW I don't think we would be in any better shape than if the tories were in power now or if they get in power in the spring. Carry on with your black and white thinking if you must, labour/socialism bad and tories/free market good. Maybe, just maybe the situation is slightly more nuanced, more grey than you describe it. I wonder if you people will ever wake up to the fact that the game is rigged, whoever is in power ? Or perhaps you will go to your graves still railing at whatever straw man/windmill is held up in front of you.

Some of us realize that it is the system that is at fault and not the pantomime villians that draw the tedious boos of the dullards and the imbeciles.

The nebulous system at fault again. Maybe, just maybe, it's you and I that's at fault.

[Guest skullingtonjoe]

The nebulous system at fault again. Maybe, just maybe, it's you and I that's at fault.

At this point George Allan - the ultimate academic snake-oil merchant - would step in and try and sell us on his brand of systems thinking. (That`s while he`s not telling IT students that they can be earning £50,000 as soon as they graduate!)

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

Friend of ours is a consultant psychiatrist, he told us yesterday that their hospitals budget has been cut by 6% and that he actually fears for his job. So far, so mundane.

Then he came out with something that made me want to bang my head on the floor, weep, hug him and punch him in the face all at the same time he said (and I quote):

'This means I'll definitely be voting labour at the next election, the tories will cut even deeper'

I was left to reflect on the irony of a quite clearly insane consultant psychiatrist.

Everyone in the UK has lost sight of the simple fact that STUFF HAS TO BE PAID FOR

Psychiatrists are just as likely to belive in NuFascist's fairy tales as anyone else.

The people will go bankrupt first, the state will follow swiftly afterwards. No amount of central bank funny money will save a nation that has bankrupted its own people.

Edited August 6, 2009 by UK Debt Slave

[frozen_out]

Everyone in the UK has lost sight of the simple fact that STUFF HAS TO BE PAID FOR

Psychiatrists are just as likely to belive in NuFascist's fairy tales as anyone else.

I think this hits the nail on the head for me. Everyone bar a few seem to have forgotten this simple fact - you don't get 'owt for nowt. It seems though that people truly believe you can keep pushing the day of reckoning, when things actually have to be paid for further and further back, perhaps beyond their own life expectancies. So in effect 'they' never have to pay for things. The cost is passed on to their children and grandchildren. This is effectively what this government is trying to do, move the cost of it's last 10 years folly a generation down the line, so the eventual crisis and collapse can be blamed on something else.

It's the ultimate DFS buy now pay later scheme, played out on a grand scale.

[Austin Allegro]

This is very much the attitude where I work.

'Things may be bad but just imagine how much worse they would be if the Tories got in' is a common type of statement. along with 'just think how high IR's would be if the Tories were in power? they were 15% the last time they were in, Labour are great as I am now saving £x a month on my mortgage'

This stuff is ingrained and the brainwashing certainly works. People just cannot see what is going on for themselves so believe everything that fat odious PM we have says. The fact he has caused much of this mess with his prudence is wasted on them. I cannot argue my point with them as they know I am a right leaning borderline Tory supporter anyway so apparently my opinion does not count.

I've come up against this attitude myself. The 'Labour good/Tories evil' meme is endemic in the university educated, professional/white collar classes, with the only exception being banking, the armed forces and some sections of the law. It's beyond rational thinking - it's a visceral fear of being seen as 'nasty'.

[Si1]

So in effect 'they' never have to pay for things. The cost is passed on to their children and grandchildren. This is effectively what this government is trying to do, move the cost of it's last 10 years folly a generation down the line, so the eventual crisis and collapse can be blamed on something else.

I thnk this is the intention, and it is of course evil.

I don't think the plan will work out like that - the market won't allow it, in the long run.

[Si1]

I've come up against this attitude myself. The 'Labour good/Tories evil' meme is endemic in the university educated, professional/white collar classes, with the only exception being banking, the armed forces and some sections of the law. It's beyond rational thinking - it's a visceral fear of being seen as 'nasty'.

aren't you describing mainly the vested interests who've coined it out of the Brown Boom - the discontents (of which there are many) are much less vocal but equally political

Edited August 6, 2009 by Si1

[kenny dalglish]

Yes, but to an extent we are arguing at cross purposes - I'm not denying the existence of mental illnesses, or that they can be genetic.

What I am saying is that a lot of what gets called "depression" is unhappiness/distress that is caused by external factors.

As an adjunct to that, an ontological case of "depression" is probably a sign of a more significant mental illness, so again I'm not sure that "depression" is the correct description of the illness.

If it suits you to call it something else, do so. The common name for it is depression. Agreed it could have it's origin in another mental illness, but then again not always. Agreed also that it could have it's origin externally.

But as I think, as I alluded to earlier, what causes it is in some ways irrelevant. First of all, it is very difficult to pin down the root causes. It is mostly guessswork. Life experiences can possibly contribute, so can possibly pysiological conditions. People with conditions as far ranging as tinnitus and temporomandibular joint (TMJ) disorder can report depression as can people who have psorias or have recently given birth. In some cases an underlying cause can be found, such as a hormonal imbalance and this can be treated and can also in turn alleviate or remove the depression. But not always. Many people suffer terribly with the illness for years without a cure or a detection of an underlying cause.

And the notion that somehow knowing the cause of your illness (which is at best a guess anyway) will somehow help the illness is spurious. It is true that once somebody is on the road to recovery that they may better understand the issues that contributed to it, but this is often not the case for those in the grip of depression. I think that this is one of the great misundersandings of people who have never experienced this illnes. Depression literally changes you. It can remove or inhibit your zest for life, reduce your immune system, affect your ability to think, destroy/enhance your appetite, remove your sex drive, everything. MIR research has shown that people with depression literally have different brain activity to normal people, the illness literally rewires your brain. This is a whole different kettle of fish to someone who simply feels " a bit down" or "out of sorts", you feel depression in a physical way, anybody who has suffered from depression will tell you that it is a world apart from the day-to-day sadness/unhappiness that we all feel.

The cure for depression (if there is such a thing) seems to be varied, often a combination of talking therapies and medication. And again, just because your particular relative did not fair too well on valium does not mean that in a 2+2=4 sort of way that you can state categorically medication does not work. There are millions of people around the world that have benefitted from the use of medications including (but not restricted to ) the new generation of SSRI medications that have superceded the old tricylclics (sp?) such as valium. I am not defending the use of the medications either, frankly I abhor the fact that western medicine and the pharmacutical companies have a wholly suspect and mutually beneficial relationship together. Nor am I going to deny that there are people who have had no beneft from the medications, nor am I going to deny the fact that there are people who have been damaged in some cases severely by the medication or indeed have been driven to suicide by adverse reactions to them. Unfortunately there are no easy answers to any of this as anybody with depression will testify to.

Anyway to reiterate my initial point, stating that depression does not exist is exactly the sort of knee jerk remark that will always get my goat and will often get a volley from me. There seems to be way to much over simplification on these boards and fair enough, most people are ignorant about most things, but I do take exception when ignorant and loose remarks are made about subjects that have a real and severe effect on peoples lives. And more than that any such person reading these threads might assume that because these remarks go unchallenged that they are somehow representative of the consenus. Well they don't represent me.

[kenny dalglish]

The nebulous system at fault again. Maybe, just maybe, it's you and I that's at fault.

...er...that is my point

[Aidan Ap Word]

I think this is the intention [to leave all paying for anything in the last years of craziness to the kids], and it is of course evil.

I don't think the plan will work out like that - the market won't allow it, in the long run.

I suspect so to. But I am not sure how the market can protect us from such selfishness in the medium term (> 5 years) because the sheople's memories are just too short.

*sigh*

Sorry: not negating your point ... just worried that you might be a little too optimistic here?

Aidanapword

[Si1]

I suspect so to. But I am not sure how the market can protect us from such selfishness in the medium term (> 5 years) because the sheople's memories are just too short.

*sigh*

Sorry: not negating your point ... just worried that you might be a little too optimistic here?

Aidanapword

you mean if labour get back in power after 1 term out?

yeah, that scares me too. My hopes rest with Harriet becoming leader of the opposition...go girl!

Edited August 6, 2009 by Si1

[interestrateripoff]

Friend of ours is a consultant psychiatrist, he told us yesterday that their hospitals budget has been cut by 6% and that he actually fears for his job. So far, so mundane.

Then he came out with something that made me want to bang my head on the floor, weep, hug him and punch him in the face all at the same time he said (and I quote):

'This means I'll definitely be voting labour at the next election, the tories will cut even deeper'

I was left to reflect on the irony of a quite clearly insane consultant psychiatrist.

Trouble is he's assuming that the Govt will have money.

Just where does this person think the tax revenue will come from to keep his salary. Does he think Labour can magic more money than the tories?

Although I do think this is Labours plan to try and stay in power, it's there only hope unless they can engineer a recovery that lasts till around xmas 2010.

[Injin]

Trouble is he's assuming that the Govt will have money.

Just where does this person think the tax revenue will come from to keep his salary. Does he think Labour can magic more money than the tories?

Although I do think this is Labours plan to try and stay in power, it's there only hope unless they can engineer a recovery that lasts till around xmas 2010.

I'd say 95% of the population thinks of the government as some supernatural force like the wind, with infinite wealth and power etc.

A bit like a 3 year old thinks of his dad.

[Si1]

Trouble is he's assuming that the Govt will have money.

Just where does this person think the tax revenue will come from to keep his salary. Does he think Labour can magic more money than the tories?

I don't think you understand the nasty psychology well enough - these b*stards are less concerned about their personal wealth, so much as them having more than the next person. It's a bit subliminal, but they feel good about (1) their ascendant position and (2) the suffering of others - it helps them cement their own fantasies of benign power over the lives of others. If they are actually a bit poorer it makes little odds providing most people are poorer still.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Si1

[grumpy-old-man-returns]

No. You're missing the point. I'm doubting that "depression" is an internal medical condition - or at least to the extent that it is recognised.

It really matters whether we call it "unhappiness" or "depression", and it really matters whether it is caused by internal or external factors.

I would say that letting people think that there is something ontologically "wrong" with them, when in fact the problem is caused by the society that is making that suggestion is far more criminal.

having just read all your replies, imo you have been spot-on with every one of your posts on this subject on this thread & I agree with you totally.

[grumpy-old-man-returns]

No. You're missing the point. I'm doubting that "depression" is an internal medical condition - or at least to the extent that it is recognised.

It really matters whether we call it "unhappiness" or "depression", and it really matters whether it is caused by internal or external factors.

I would say that letting people think that there is something ontologically "wrong" with them, when in fact the problem is caused by the society that is making that suggestion is far more criminal.

especially this one......

[grumpy-old-man-returns]

Depends really I guess. I mean, where does unhappiness become depression? I`ve asked this one before and a pretty good measure is when - according to one poster - `you no longer have the will to do anything`. I`ll add: `including living life`.

As a user of mental health services depression is seen as a minor condition; left untreated (by whatever means with the exception of `self-medicating` through alcohol and /or controlled substances), it can become a pernicious, chronic condition that can become worse, leading to extreme cases such as suicide.

If you can identify the source of your unhappiness, then that`s good; but it`s not an option for some people (unless they can go through years of therapy trying to identify the root of their problems and then get over them). NHS mental health services are not very good and in my experience most psychiatrists do not know what they are doing.

Depression is the least of my mental health problems, but I feel that if one were to say `there`s no such thing as cancer`, the reaction from people would be a different one.

Hi skullingtonjoe,

sounds like you have had a rough life, trust me I know how you feel.

It's difficult if you don't have a soul mate (I assume you don't?) to discuss this all with. That would be worth more than everything else together imho.

If your work environment is pressured & your boss & peers are not very nice then this add's to your issues.

Good Luck & never give up. There are a few good people out there, we just haven't met many of them

[Guest X-QUORK]

I was left to reflect on the irony of a quite clearly insane consultant psychiatrist.

That's a relief, for a second I thought you were talking about a medical professional.