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bill still

Gold Money

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The goldbugs know so little of monetary history that they have bought the bankers line that gold will control the quantity of money -- and they are right -- but not in our favor -- in the favor of those who want to control the world. Don't start your investigation with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. That's the mistake. By then, all the action was long over and you'll never understand the problem with money.

Gold has NEVER worked well as money -- for the poor folk. Gold is the money of the rich. I'm all for becoming rich. But that's not a good system of government -- rule by the rich. That's called "plutocracy." You never hear that word any more because it tends to focus the argument correctly. A republic is not a plutocracy -- it's a combo.

If you really believe in the concept of the righteousness of self government, you have to vest the most important power of government in the elected representatives closest to the people -- the lower house of Congress.

If not, then your argument is that those rascals in Congress will print too much money and only a golden clasp -- right out of the Wonderful Wizard of Oz -- will control the flow of greenbacks. This is the plutocrat line. Very simple.

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Gold has NEVER worked well as money -- for the poor folk. Gold is the money of the rich. I'm all for becoming rich. But that's not a good system of government -- rule by the rich. That's called "plutocracy." You never hear that word any more because it tends to focus the argument correctly.

Substitute property for gold in the above, and you have our society.

The difference is that property has intrinsic value. It's expensive being poor.

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I agree with this point. Gold is not the only mechanism to prevent printing of money. Transparency about the amount of money in circulation and education on monetary inflation is the key.

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Guest UK Debt Slave
The goldbugs know so little of monetary history that they have bought the bankers line that gold will control the quantity of money -- and they are right -- but not in our favor -- in the favor of those who want to control the world. Don't start your investigation with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. That's the mistake. By then, all the action was long over and you'll never understand the problem with money.

Gold has NEVER worked well as money -- for the poor folk. Gold is the money of the rich. I'm all for becoming rich. But that's not a good system of government -- rule by the rich. That's called "plutocracy." You never hear that word any more because it tends to focus the argument correctly. A republic is not a plutocracy -- it's a combo.

If you really believe in the concept of the righteousness of self government, you have to vest the most important power of government in the elected representatives closest to the people -- the lower house of Congress.

If not, then your argument is that those rascals in Congress will print too much money and only a golden clasp -- right out of the Wonderful Wizard of Oz -- will control the flow of greenbacks. This is the plutocrat line. Very simple.

The people who controlled the gold monetary system are the same people who control the fiat monetary system.

Rothschilds still control the global gold market from London to this day.

The advantages of gold are that if you manage to get some, it's a better hedge against inflation that paper.......but only just. Gold prices should be much higher than they are currently in light of the terrible state of the economy and the huge growth of paper credit in the last 10-15 years.

It's all a rigged game. That's how they must keep it. They mustn't allow the middle class an exit strategy from their power games and that's why gold will not be a good substitute from paper unless the whole syste collapses........in which case, guns n beans will be the most tradeable commodities.

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Guest UK Debt Slave
I agree with this point. Gold is not the only mechanism to prevent printing of money. Transparency about the amount of money in circulation and education on monetary inflation is the key.

Agreed.

The best weapon against greedy bankers and lying corrupt venal politicians is a well educated populace

well, they've done a sterling job of preventing that haven't they? ;)

Edited by UK Debt Slave

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The goldbugs know so little of monetary history that they have bought the bankers line that gold will control the quantity of money -- and they are right -- but not in our favor -- in the favor of those who want to control the world. Don't start your investigation with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. That's the mistake. By then, all the action was long over and you'll never understand the problem with money.

Gold has NEVER worked well as money -- for the poor folk. Gold is the money of the rich. I'm all for becoming rich. But that's not a good system of government -- rule by the rich. That's called "plutocracy." You never hear that word any more because it tends to focus the argument correctly. A republic is not a plutocracy -- it's a combo.

If you really believe in the concept of the righteousness of self government, you have to vest the most important power of government in the elected representatives closest to the people -- the lower house of Congress.

If not, then your argument is that those rascals in Congress will print too much money and only a golden clasp -- right out of the Wonderful Wizard of Oz -- will control the flow of greenbacks. This is the plutocrat line. Very simple.

Quite right,.

Money needs to be left up to the market.

If I contract to be paid in chocolate, or beer or time off that's my perogative. All a reasonable court system or dispute resolution system should do is make sure I am paid up if it goes badly.

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Agreed.

The best weapon against greedy bankers and lying corrupt venal politicians is a well educated populace

well, they've done a sterling job of preventing that haven't they? ;)

They don't need to prevent people from being educated. So many of them are pointless it wouldn't matter if you provided world class education. They'd rather watch football and eat curry.

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If I contract to be paid in chocolate, or beer or time off that's my perogative. All a reasonable court system or dispute resolution system should do is make sure I am paid up if it goes badly.

Logistics and settlement seem to be a major barrier in your economy.

I think I can kiss goodbye to eating oranges and kiwi fruit if we ever see it. Luckily I'm partial to turnips.

Is credit still allowed?

Edited by Alan B'Stard MP

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Logistics and settlement seem to be a major barrier in your economy.

Nah, theres just no false constraints or false groupings. Absent a system that forces us to be together, we aren't linked. "We" don't need a solution. I can make my own, you can make yours.

I think I can kiss goodbye to eating oranges and kiwi fruit if we ever see it.

Why on earth would that be?

Is credit still allowed?

Course it is.

When have I ever said there is anything wrong with credit?

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Guest UK Debt Slave
They don't need to prevent people from being educated. So many of them are pointless it wouldn't matter if you provided world class education. They'd rather watch football and eat curry.

If people were well educated, they'd still watch football and eat curry, and why not? They just do something else as well which governments and bankers don't want them to do.......THINK

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Why on earth would that be?

Because I don't see how you trade effectively with a farmer in NZ without the passing of promises?

When have I ever said there is anything wrong with credit?

:blink:

Youre just being polite because we have visitors.

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Because I don't see how you trade effectively with a farmer in NZ without the passing of promises?

Have you tried talking to him?

Sheesh.

:blink:

Youre just being polite because we have visitors.

My problem is with credit being passed off as money, and fraudulant contracting based on the ignorance of the public and the connivery of the bankers.

If you want to openly offer credit, defining it properly and letting everyone know what you are about, go for it. Course you'll have to abandon all chance of restitution if you do because you stand no loss. But like I said, up to you.

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Gold has NEVER worked well as money -- for the poor folk.

all imposed monetary srandards f*** over the poor, gold standard or otherwise.

you are completely missing the point.

the point is that it doesn't matter what people use as money - what does matter is whether people have been forced to use something as money

If you really believe in the concept of the righteousness of self government, you have to vest the most important power of government in the elected representatives closest to the people -- the lower house of Congress.

yes because handing control of the money supply from the crooks in the Fed to the crooks in Congress will fix everything :lol::lol::lol: .

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Have you tried talking to him?

Sheesh.

Yes. But I can't throw my chicken into low earth orbit. Anyway youre allowing credit so point ended.

My problem is with credit being passed off as money, and fraudulant contracting based on the ignorance of the public and the connivery of the bankers.

If you want to openly offer credit, defining it properly and letting everyone know what you are about, go for it. Course you'll have to abandon all chance of restitution if you do because you stand no loss. But like I said, up to you.

I have no problem with that. I don't think I could argue a case that depositors (of savings) arent currently being lied to.

Edited by Alan B'Stard MP

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Substitute property for gold in the above, and you have our society.

The difference is that property has intrinsic value. It's expensive being poor.

I was just about to post exactly that - good job I checked the post history!

Property may not be money, but it is wealth.

And more to the point, it can be used not only as a store of wealth, but also to extract the much of the value created by the labour of the poor.

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My problem with fiat is the distortions it creates.

If we are to continue with the current model that includes a central bank that monitors and tries to control credit creation / broad money expansion, then see if you agree with the following at least:

1. Putting the entire economy on a 3% positive incline year-on-year means that if there's a downturn, growth will fall but hopefully stays above 0% or only dips below it briefly. Banks and other financial institutions have no real coping method for mortgages and loans that and underwater (no net equity). The system seeks a method by which some form of growth is always maintained, so this situation occurs rarely and all loans remain "liquid" under their original terms.

2. A positive 3% growth target is exponential, as indeed are all year-on-year percentage increase targets. The system is made inherently unstable by money trickling down into parts of the economy that begin expanding at the same exponential rate but delayed by 6 months, a year, two years, etc. during the upswing of a business cycle. This causes clashes between price distortions (energy, food, wages, tax, etc.).

3. Because economic growth occurs by speculative (or perhaps calculated) capital allocation and risk pricing "at the ragged edge" of investment, we have usury mechanisms - loan pricing, exotic instrument pricing, etc. that are all used to cream-off money for profit by banks.

4. Inflation caused by monetary expansion is a hidden tax on the populous.

5. The "game" has been structured in such a way that risk taking is a necessary part of wealth preservation. For example, if I'm taxed 40% on my savings interest, I cannot stand still with respect to the rate of change of the general price level of things to ensure my accumulated wealth at least stays constant in real terms. We're all storing our hard-earned fruits of labour in leaky buckets. I should at least be able to sleep at night and know my money will buy the same item in 10 years time as it does today, if I make reasonable effort to seek out a safe but fair rate of return on my savings through usury loans. I shouldn't have to worry about being taxed 40% on savings interest. I should see a return close to say M2 or M3 (M4 in the UK) money supply growth rates, tax free.

6. In order to maintain the quantity of money (no new money is created, not withstanding the current quantitative easing on both sides of the Atlantic), when new money is loaned into existence, it's inevitable that some people will have to lose in order that others gain from the ability to purchase the item the loan is secured on, at today's price level.

7. Because everyone chases gains of at least the money supply growth rate, it is inevitable that bubbles form. Even if all assets classes are in balance and growing at the same rate in fiat terms, as soon as there's a consensus that one asset class is a potential out-performer, in pours the money and huge price distortions occur, making the early birds richer (the bankers) and the rest of humanity poorer.

If you can fix all of the above, then a fiat system might work as it's designed to. To afford price stability and therefore wealth to a nation, provide a simple medium of exchange, provide a store of wealth and provide a mechanism for expansion.

Edited for spelling.

Edited by AvidFan

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The rich will always try to corner the market.

They did very well with gold for a long time, and now they do well with Fiat.

They have always done well with Land.

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The people who controlled the gold monetary system are the same people who control the fiat monetary system.

Thats not true!

With money they just need more trees to churn out more paper making your money worthless but gold does not grow on trees and whilst i'm sure they can manipulate the price to some degree they can not turn it in to 1930's DM.

i'm not that rich but as a hedge against the printing press i have brought silver.

i find it strange that Bill seems so anti gold and history has shown it has worked well as money over the past 500 years even if them days are now gone.

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The rich will always try to corner the market.

They did very well with gold for a long time, and now they do well with Fiat.

They have always done well with Land.

they manipulate fiat far more easily than gold

they can only manipulate gold for so long

there seems to be few on here who wish for land to be centralised or taxed and this would be a policy that would lead to economic disaster

im with this guy

link

The battle between Jefferson and Hamilton, however, is of very great significance, and precisely because it represented a clash between two fundamentally contrasting systems of political principle. Jefferson's political philosophy is summed up in the phrase: ''That government is best which governs least." It received its finest expression in our own Declaration of Independence: man is endowed by God with certain natural rights; "to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," and when government becomes destructive of that end, the people have the right to change the form of government accordingly. Thus Jefferson, as John Locke had done a century before, drastically shifted the moral emphasis from the State to the individual. In the absolutist and feudal era from which the world was beginning to emerge, divine right settled only on the kings, the nobility; in short, the State and its rulers. To Jefferson, the divine rights were conferred on each and every individual, not on rulers of government.

The Great Jeffersonian Lesson

What were these natural rights? The fundamental right, from which all others are deduced, is the right to life. Each individual has the moral right to live without coercive interference by others. To live, he must be free to work and acquire property, to "pursue happiness." In political terms, the one important natural right is self-defense; defense of one's life, liberty, and property from invasive attack. Government's function, then, is to use its power of force to prevent and combat attempts to use force in the society. If the Government extends its powers beyond this "cop-on-the-corner" function, it in itself becomes the greatest tyrant and plunderer of them all. Since the Government has virtual monopoly of force, its potentialities for evil are far greater than that of any other institution. The people must constantly keep their Government small and local, and even then must watch it with great vigilance lest it run amok. That is the great Jeffersonian lesson, and it is one that all Americans must begin to learn again.

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Thats not true!

With money they just need more trees to churn out more paper making your money worthless but gold does not grow on trees and whilst i'm sure they can manipulate the price to some degree they can not turn it in to 1930's DM.

i'm not that rich but as a hedge against the printing press i have brought silver.

i find it strange that Bill seems so anti gold and history has shown it has worked well as money over the past 500 years even if them days are now gone.

I think bill was quite clear on that - gold standard does not benefit the poor.

How many people born poor - under a commodity currency - died rich?

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I think bill was quite clear on that - gold standard does not benefit the poor.

How many people born poor - under a commodity currency - died rich?

does it benefit savers

does it benefit those with integrity

does it force the politicians to spend what they collect and to not push the bill on to future generations

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does it benefit savers

Are you saying you want to save your gold and so reduce it's availability?

Maybe youre a plutocrat and don't even realise it ;)

Does there even need to be monetary savings??? A ridiculous idea maybe - but can such a paradigm be shown to be plausible? I feel sometimes that money should only be used a medium of transporting wealth - not wealth itself.

Edited by Alan B'Stard MP

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they manipulate fiat far more easily than gold

they can only manipulate gold for so long

there seems to be few on here who wish for land to be centralised or taxed and this would be a policy that would lead to economic disaster

im with this guy

link

While the merits of a gold standard are clear (limited supply etc), the main problem must be that those with a lot of wealth may already own a lot of gold?

If there were any rumours of returning to a gold standard, you can bet any amount of fiat money that the bankers will be the first to load up with the stuff.

As long as a fiat currency is trusted, with the supply strictly and transparently limited, it will be a good trading token. The worth of the token is simply what we (and the markets) associate with it.

I also agree that we should be free to trade in or out of said currency. The markets (even by auction) can dictate the value of anything we may want to trade in ultimately. A money token just makes the process simpler.

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Agreed.

The best weapon against greedy bankers and lying corrupt venal politicians is a well educated populace

well, they've done a sterling job of preventing that haven't they? ;)

I hear you, but the message is a simple one that most understand. This is the reason why people are suspicious (rightly so too) about QE.

The bit people don't understand (or know about) is what banks do with money/credit, which is further confused by the price inflation indexes which attempt to interpret the affects of it. It makes the whole money system complicated and chaotic when it really need not be.

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