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The Ayatollah Buggeri

British Airways - £148m Loss In Q 1

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Telegraph

Executive summary: BA lost £148m between April and June, the first time they've reported a loss in this quarter since privatisation. Revenue down 16% (adjusting for currency fluctuations, 12% literal), cost savings of 6% achieved. Walsh says 'there's more to be done'.

Assuming the thrust reversers can't be deployed on these losses in the foreseeable, the questions then become, (i) how big are their cash reserves, and (ii) what happens if they go down? EU competition law would tend to preclude a government bailout...

Edited by The Ayatollah Bugheri

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Interesting times ahead for BA.

I have a feeling the EU rules would be relaxed due to exceptional circumstances. Many national flag carriers will end up in the same boat I feel.

Obviously the likes of Branson won't be happy.

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Vastly overpaid staff, typical of a denationalised industry. It cannot compete and is in steady decline.

File under Air Italia.

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I have a long-haul BA stewardess friend of some 15 years service, earning circa 50k for serving dinners/drinks and being on perennial standby to assist an evacuation.

She is lovely but just does not get how precarious her situation is - she whinges about how she wants to reduce her hours as work is too stressful. So she got a 75% contract (the airline must love girls like her right now).

Then she whinges because she wants to work short-haul to have more time at home - so eventually they put her on a course to convert back.

But in all our emails she never mentions anything about the fact that her job may go soon, and she has few transferable skills and none that would earn her the kind of packages she is used to (cue the horny pilot jokes).

In my last email to her I said something along the lines of "let us hope you still have any kind of job this time next year, it is not looking good is it, what is the word amongst crew?" and she has not replied. Obviously I struck a chord of despair - one can imagine them sitting around drinking down route, afraid to discuss the situation (or at least the ******** middle class Brit girls like her, I imagine the europeans girls and gay lads are more "open").

She is a lovely lass in the kind of nice but dim way - her and her 13,000 cabin crew colleagues (yes, 13,000!) are flying into oblivion I fear. The airline simply cannot service it's highly paid senior staff and its massive ex-civil service pension liabilities anymore, the retirees are living too long - BT is in the same position as are all other ex-gov organisations which inherited final salary pension schemes. Doomed!

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I have a long-haul BA stewardess friend of some 15 years service, earning circa 50k for serving dinners/drinks and being on perennial standby to assist an evacuation.

£50K to pour drinks. Can't think of any problems with that scenario :rolleyes:

Edited by Grime- skint wouldbe ftb

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Something radical has got to give, and pretty quickly.

It seems to me that at the moment, BA are implementing cost-cutting measures that are saving relatively little money and alienating their customers. First they scrap catering on short-haul and now they're reducing the baggage allowance on transatlantic flights from two suitcases to one. Their direct rivals have not done this and these are precisely the sorts of frills that people expect when they pay legacy airline prices. If BA carry on like this then about the only thing that will distinguish them from the LoCos is the airports they use and that they will transfer checked baggage through connecting flights.

My guess is that BA's only hope is to seriously slash the staff costs that CB describes and ruthlessly prune loss-making routes. They can't go on losing almost three times as much revenue as they're recouping through efficiency savings indefinitely before going bust.

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My guess is that BA's only hope is to seriously slash the staff costs that CB describes and ruthlessly prune loss-making routes. They can't go on losing almost three times as much revenue as they're recouping through efficiency savings indefinitely before going bust.

Does Willie have any other choice but to take the company to the brink before the staff will back down and accept whatever changes are necessary? That's how it looks from outside.

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What a load of rubbish is spoken about British Airways.

These are the facts. My sister has been BA Cabin Crew for 6 years at Gatwick- Does a mix of long haul (Barbados, Orlando, Jamaica, Tampa, St Lucia, Bermuda) and short haul (slowly diminishing and rumours that a lot of it is going to be passed to FlyBE). She used to work for Easyjet before she joined BA and this is FACT - She earned more at Easyjet than she does now at BA !!!!

I wont discuss her salary on this forum but needless to say it is below what my other sister gets as a Dental Receptionist.

She wouldn't change her job because she gets to travel, works with lots of different people and has a laugh. She hates office work and feels sorry for the 9 to 5'ers. On the other hand she works damned hard, gets loads of crap from middle class tosspots who think they're special or above her in some way either intellectually (She has a BSc in Physics with medical physics from UCL) or economically (her husband is the Tech Director of a large Web Development Agency). Its funny how people stereotype but I have never had more stimulating intellectual conversations than when I mingle with BA crew down route. Sure there are a few airheads but no more than any office in London, in fact most people who claim to be in intellectual or high flying jobs actually either end up being total bores or brainless d*cks obsessed with their status either dropping in snippets about how much money they have or how important they are, all the time I nod, unwilling to even mention my own situation but dying to do so.

What people fail to understand is that some BA crew at Heathrow who have been there for more than 10 years are on what they term "old contracts" and are indeed earning £40,000 (This would be a good year with Sydney, Hong Kong, Singapore and lots of LA trips). The other 90% of BA cabin crew at Heathrow are earning about £25k - £30k. The crew at Gatwick (about 2000 of the 15000 total) have been on the "new contracts" that Willie Walsh wants to force on Heathrow for 3-4 years now (about half of what they are on at Heathrow doing exactly the same job). Heathrow are kicking up a stink but are willing to take pay cuts all be it not as much as BA would like. What Heathrow are upset about are cuts in T's & C's for instance which would mean that they would have just one nights stay on an LA trip. Now that is 12 hours there (arriving jet lagged)....10 hours rest and then 12 hours flying back (staying awake for most of the night - getting 4 hours sleep in a bunk). Even Virgin are not doing that and it questions there commitment to quality service.

Anyway the 2nd Point. So we wanted our Mum and friend to go on a holiday to Barbados so we tried to arrange hotline tickets (£500+ by the way, no big discounts unless it is spouse). When you book it they give you detailed availability so you can pick trips when demand is low. We looked for Sept, Oct, Nov and almost every flight (daily) had no more than 10 seats available and forget it if you want Club. So we tried St Lucia, then Kingston, then Bermuda...every flight almost full. But how could this be? Surely a failing business would have signs of failure. Glasgow and Edinburgh this week, I needed to pop up for a quick meeting, looked on BA found a seat on a Glasgow, no luck on the Edinburgh. Got to the airport and had to fly Jump Seat as there was not one seat available.

So what is going on? Well first of all they are still reeling from hedging fuel at the peak price, paying out huge fines, trying to cover pension deficits, funding terminal 5, paying midde managers they made redundant earlier this year four times their old salary in contracts etc etc.

HEATHROW (Not BA Gatwick who are on half BA Heathrow cabin crews salary) need to take cuts and get real that is for sure but in my opinion this "crisis" has been over played by management and blamed (via a PR war as well as direct attack) on staff wages in order to finally destroy the T's & C's built up over many years by the unionised HEATHROW BA Crew. This recession was spotted by management as an Opportunity more than a year ago (It was originally called Operation Columbus - So called because the idea was to merge with Iberia, create a new company requiring new staff contracts - destroying the "old BA Contracts" legally but unfortunatey for BA the Iberia merger wasnt agreed).

If you believe that a business such as BA will go under then you have to have the brain of a small pea. Can you imagine, it would literally half the amount of flights in and out of the UK. Do you think a developed country trying to be a World Business Hub would let this happen because Virgin with Bransons debt mountain aren't going to step up to the plate to cover the route losses (they can hardly stay afloat with what they have on at the moment).

BA will be here when your childrens children children are off on their travels and secretly you all know that is the truth.

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There are Cabin Crew at BA that I know well who earn 60,000 pounds and do 2 5 day trips a month. On old contract.

But a third of them are on old contract. WITH final salary pensions. And then there are the Spanish Practices. Like requiring 2 local nights rest after a diversion from London. Even if its to Bournemouth.. Not willing to share the same bus to the aircraft as the pilots.. It goes on and on and on.

BA lose 2.7 million a week. Ryanair post profits of about the same a week. One has cash of 1.3bn the other has cash on its books of 2.54bn. Guess which one has the most cash..

Ryanair kick ass.

PS

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On the other hand she works damned hard, gets loads of crap from middle class tosspots who think they're special or above her in some way either intellectually (She has a BSc in Physics with medical physics from UCL) or economically (her husband is the Tech Director of a large Web Development Agency). Its funny how people stereotype but I have never had more stimulating intellectual conversations than when I mingle with BA crew down route.

Its not exactly brain surgery though is it? :rolleyes:

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What Heathrow are upset about are cuts in T's & C's for instance which would mean that they would have just one nights stay on an LA trip. Now that is 12 hours there (arriving jet lagged)....10 hours rest and then 12 hours flying back (staying awake for most of the night - getting 4 hours sleep in a bunk).

No sympathy; sorry. Ten hours is long enough to get a decent night's sleep between shifts. And besides, it's going to be longer than that. If you arrive in LA, say, late afternoon local time, the next flights home will leave at around a couple of hours later (i.e. the planes take 2-3 hours to turn round). So even if the FAs work the next day's flight out, they're going to be on the ground and off duty for 18-20 hours at the very least.

When I worked in the cinema industry I frequently worked 12-15 hour shifts on three or four consecutive days with 5-6 hours' sleep in between. And managing a cinema is just as safety critical a job as a flight attendant's is: in the event of a fire alarm we had to evacuate safely up to 1,500 people tightly packed into small spaces, and from a building that wasn't designed to enable that evacuation to take place quickly and efficiently, like an airliner is.

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What a load of rubbish is spoken about British Airways.

These are the facts. My sister has been BA Cabin Crew for 6 years at Gatwick- Does a mix of long haul (Barbados, Orlando, Jamaica, Tampa, St Lucia, Bermuda) and short haul (slowly diminishing and rumours that a lot of it is going to be passed to FlyBE). She used to work for Easyjet before she joined BA and this is FACT - She earned more at Easyjet than she does now at BA !!!!

I wont discuss her salary on this forum but needless to say it is below what my other sister gets as a Dental Receptionist.

She wouldn't change her job because she gets to travel, works with lots of different people and has a laugh. She hates office work and feels sorry for the 9 to 5'ers. On the other hand she works damned hard, gets loads of crap from middle class tosspots who think they're special or above her in some way either intellectually (She has a BSc in Physics with medical physics from UCL) or economically (her husband is the Tech Director of a large Web Development Agency). Its funny how people stereotype but I have never had more stimulating intellectual conversations than when I mingle with BA crew down route. Sure there are a few airheads but no more than any office in London, in fact most people who claim to be in intellectual or high flying jobs actually either end up being total bores or brainless d*cks obsessed with their status either dropping in snippets about how much money they have or how important they are, all the time I nod, unwilling to even mention my own situation but dying to do so.

What people fail to understand is that some BA crew at Heathrow who have been there for more than 10 years are on what they term "old contracts" and are indeed earning £40,000 (This would be a good year with Sydney, Hong Kong, Singapore and lots of LA trips). The other 90% of BA cabin crew at Heathrow are earning about £25k - £30k. The crew at Gatwick (about 2000 of the 15000 total) have been on the "new contracts" that Willie Walsh wants to force on Heathrow for 3-4 years now (about half of what they are on at Heathrow doing exactly the same job). Heathrow are kicking up a stink but are willing to take pay cuts all be it not as much as BA would like. What Heathrow are upset about are cuts in T's & C's for instance which would mean that they would have just one nights stay on an LA trip. Now that is 12 hours there (arriving jet lagged)....10 hours rest and then 12 hours flying back (staying awake for most of the night - getting 4 hours sleep in a bunk). Even Virgin are not doing that and it questions there commitment to quality service.

Anyway the 2nd Point. So we wanted our Mum and friend to go on a holiday to Barbados so we tried to arrange hotline tickets (£500+ by the way, no big discounts unless it is spouse). When you book it they give you detailed availability so you can pick trips when demand is low. We looked for Sept, Oct, Nov and almost every flight (daily) had no more than 10 seats available and forget it if you want Club. So we tried St Lucia, then Kingston, then Bermuda...every flight almost full. But how could this be? Surely a failing business would have signs of failure. Glasgow and Edinburgh this week, I needed to pop up for a quick meeting, looked on BA found a seat on a Glasgow, no luck on the Edinburgh. Got to the airport and had to fly Jump Seat as there was not one seat available.

So what is going on? Well first of all they are still reeling from hedging fuel at the peak price, paying out huge fines, trying to cover pension deficits, funding terminal 5, paying midde managers they made redundant earlier this year four times their old salary in contracts etc etc.

HEATHROW (Not BA Gatwick who are on half BA Heathrow cabin crews salary) need to take cuts and get real that is for sure but in my opinion this "crisis" has been over played by management and blamed (via a PR war as well as direct attack) on staff wages in order to finally destroy the T's & C's built up over many years by the unionised HEATHROW BA Crew. This recession was spotted by management as an Opportunity more than a year ago (It was originally called Operation Columbus - So called because the idea was to merge with Iberia, create a new company requiring new staff contracts - destroying the "old BA Contracts" legally but unfortunatey for BA the Iberia merger wasnt agreed).

If you believe that a business such as BA will go under then you have to have the brain of a small pea. Can you imagine, it would literally half the amount of flights in and out of the UK. Do you think a developed country trying to be a World Business Hub would let this happen because Virgin with Bransons debt mountain aren't going to step up to the plate to cover the route losses (they can hardly stay afloat with what they have on at the moment).

BA will be here when your childrens children children are off on their travels and secretly you all know that is the truth.

I was referring to my friend who is Heathrow old contract - and believe me there are many more of the old "windsor witches" on 50k+ (as Peter Skellan perfectly summarised them) than just 10% of the LHR crew complement. Many are approaching retirement and to be fair to your version, as they retire the new contract crew are obviously forming the majority.

But even when they retire on 2 thirds final salary, it is killing the airline. Even when they die, their spouses inherit some of the fat pension, it never ends.

But My Mrs was short and long-haul BA LHR crew and she made this observation tonight (after she served me a choice of chicken or beef from the trolley in our living room then sneered at me - old habits and all that) - BAs problem is not just the fat salaries the cabin crew earn. Due to the unions, combined with the airline's heydeys of offering top service in club and first class cabins (where the money used to be earned to float the airline), they have ended up with absurdly over-crewed planes.

She told me about Jumbo trips our east with 17 cabin crew on board, and 2-3 flight crew. I would wager that Virgin would crew with two thirds that figure, earning half the wages/allowances and with either no or a mickey mouse pension - and similar fare prices.

And I must have a brain the size of a pea as I can see the airline failing, especially if the government has no money left to save it even if it could be made legal to do so. You are obviously too young to recall past governments standing by while the coal/steel/car industries etc died.

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And I must have a brain the size of a pea as I can see the airline failing, especially if the government has no money left to save it even if it could be made legal to do so. You are obviously too young to recall past governments standing by while the coal/steel/car industries etc died.

According to Radio Five while driving home this evening, their cash reserves are around £1.5bn. Therefore, at their current rate of loss (£196 million per quarter), they've got about two years.

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According to Radio Five while driving home this evening, their cash reserves are around £1.5bn. Therefore, at their current rate of loss (£196 million per quarter), they've got about two years.

That's a lot of dough. Presumably that includes the 650 million they just raised from investors. It is a shame the recession will last much, much longer than 2 years - and even if it ends soon, there will be a long term unemployment and business expenditure downturn hangover which will last several years.

Doomed! But for those who talk fondly of BA being the flag-carrier, remember that BA foolishly took off the union jacks years ago, leaving it open for Branson to bang them onto Virgin jets enabling Virgin to genuinely claim to be Britain's flag-carrier. Buffoons. Willie Walsh is smart, BA's one and only hope but he may have joined too late to save them.

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There are Cabin Crew at BA that I know well who earn 60,000 pounds and do 2 5 day trips a month. On old contract.

But a third of them are on old contract. WITH final salary pensions. And then there are the Spanish Practices. Like requiring 2 local nights rest after a diversion from London. Even if its to Bournemouth.. Not willing to share the same bus to the aircraft as the pilots.. It goes on and on and on.

BA lose 2.7 million a week. Ryanair post profits of about the same a week. One has cash of 1.3bn the other has cash on its books of 2.54bn. Guess which one has the most cash..

Ryanair kick ass.

PS

Oh I didnt realise Ryanair flew longhaul. Completely different business.

For a start I wouldnt fly on Ryanair if you paid me, they are in my opinion the worst airline by a million miles and I have flown Aeroflot !!! But I dont need to go into that one because they are abysmal, I dont think anyone can argue against that one.

BA are looking to drop their shorthaul, it is small fry. Comparing them to Ryanair is like comparing McDonalds to Stavros's Kebab Shop (oh no thats Easyjet, sorry).

BA have assets that Tony Ryan and Michael O'Leary can only dream of. £2.5billion...pah!! Terminal 5 alone is worth more than £5billion I think BA's assets are worth in excess of £11billion.

I have no doubt there are T's&C's at Heathrow that are unbelievable, some of those guys on old contracts are real Diva's no doubt about that but I see my sisters payslips and she has been at BA for 6 years and possibly could earn £60,000 in 4 years at a push. She does 4 days on 2 days off.

I know policemen who earn £75k, I know hairdressers that earn £150k per annum just for cutting hair, I know individuals in most careers who earn silly money but BA's own negtive PR could only state that the average wage was £29k and that was taking into account those old contracts. If a third of them were on £60k that means the other 2/3rd's are earning around £10k to make that about right.

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According to Radio Five while driving home this evening, their cash reserves are around £1.5bn. Therefore, at their current rate of loss (£196 million per quarter), they've got about two years.

A lot sooner though if the rate of loss increases which is quite possible.

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they are in my opinion the worst airline by a million miles and I have flown Aeroflot !!!

There's nothing wrong with Aeroflot. It's the small airlines from other former Soviet states you've got to worry about.

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Its not exactly brain surgery though is it? :rolleyes:

What is nowadays? other than brain surgery. I worked in law for 9 years and for most of the time I just copied text from books/websites onto Word, nothing more nothing less. My point was that everybody tries to intellectualise their job as if it is brain surgery (which actually probably just involves operating electronic machinery nowadays).

I think there are quite a few knobs out there, yourself included, that like to believe that cabin crew is just serving coffee and meals on board but then you're not alone in stereotyping.

All nurses do are clean people up and plump up cushions, glorified house keepers the lot of them.

All teachers do is recite text, ask them a challenging question and most of them are absolutely confused, out of their depth.

All bankers are just loud mouthed gamblers.

All pilots do these days is punch in a few stats and then sit back for 9 hours.

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Oh I didnt realise Ryanair flew longhaul. Completely different business.

For a start I wouldnt fly on Ryanair if you paid me, they are in my opinion the worst airline by a million miles and I have flown Aeroflot !!! But I dont need to go into that one because they are abysmal, I dont think anyone can argue against that one.

BA are looking to drop their shorthaul, it is small fry. Comparing them to Ryanair is like comparing McDonalds to Stavros's Kebab Shop (oh no thats Easyjet, sorry).

BA have assets that Tony Ryan and Michael O'Leary can only dream of. £2.5billion...pah!! Terminal 5 alone is worth more than £5billion I think BA's assets are worth in excess of £11billion.

I have no doubt there are T's&C's at Heathrow that are unbelievable, some of those guys on old contracts are real Diva's no doubt about that but I see my sisters payslips and she has been at BA for 6 years and possibly could earn £60,000 in 4 years at a push. She does 4 days on 2 days off.

I know policemen who earn £75k, I know hairdressers that earn £150k per annum just for cutting hair, I know individuals in most careers who earn silly money but BA's own negtive PR could only state that the average wage was £29k and that was taking into account those old contracts. If a third of them were on £60k that means the other 2/3rd's are earning around £10k to make that about right.

Forget the 15k PA on your sister's playslips - she will earn another 8-10k on top in flight and duty free allowances.

The "pay" figures we are talking of in earlier posts IRO 50-60k were misleading - about half of that is the allowances and duty free commission earnings. 50-60k is the total package.

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What is nowadays? other than brain surgery. I worked in law for 9 years and for most of the time I just copied text from books/websites onto Word, nothing more nothing less. My point was that everybody tries to intellectualise their job as if it is brain surgery (which actually probably just involves operating electronic machinery nowadays).

I think there are quite a few knobs out there, yourself included, that like to believe that cabin crew is just serving coffee and meals on board but then you're not alone in stereotyping.

All nurses do are clean people up and plump up cushions, glorified house keepers the lot of them.

All teachers do is recite text, ask them a challenging question and most of them are absolutely confused, out of their depth.

All bankers are just loud mouthed gamblers.

All pilots do these days is punch in a few stats and then sit back for 9 hours.

:rolleyes: Did you watch the youtube clip? Well, did you?

Thanks for the name calling (:rolleyes: again) but you were the one who ruined a vaguely useful post by feeling it necessary to rationalise your sister's vocation. Would you be ashamed of her if she was a stewardess without the physics degree? I couldn't give a flying fook about it, live and let live and all that.

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So those on the 'old' contact will never leave unless forced to and are a cost liability that will remain a (too) expensive overhead. Says alot about the previous management (assume they had bonuses and final salary pensions etc, now living the life of Riley) but if BA cannot get rid of these old practices then they are toast - or can I see a 'into public ownership' over the horizon.

I am so out of date.

I didn't realise that IPO has taken on a whole new meaning ........

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My sister is BA Heathrow cabin crew. She always claims to earn peanuts. I'm not sure I believe her though ;)

In all probability BA *will* merge with another airline, because really it's the only answer to those silly contracts.

The Govt. won't let BA go down. No way.

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