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bogbrush

How's Somalia Doing?

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I must confess to not following this closely; all that the MSM reports is pirates.

Does anyone have any sound facts about what it's like there now? How ungoverned is it, and how does that work out?

How are they bailing out the banks and is their central bank buying Somalian bonds yet? :lol:

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Damn good question.

I look forward to learning something.

PS. Bogbrush, do you have anything to do with Weebag?

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As there hasn't been any government there for a while Somalia is now an Injinesque anarchist utopian paradise.

There are no pirates, only misunderstood fishermen trying to peacefully sell their wares to passing ships.

They are leading the world in scientific advancement, unfettered markets, wonderful heathcare provision, no crime and everyone is happy.

There are also no warlords, just peaceful business men offering each other a fair days pay for a fair days work.

If you hear any different it is because you are a brainwashed sheep listening to the evil Murdoch empire and government propaganda. ;)

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No, just his brother.

:lol:

Anyway, I thought I'd have a quick look. This was the second news link: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...lWmrrwD99NG7JO1

Thousands of Somalis fleeing fighting around the capital have massed in a northern town, trying to cross the Gulf of Aden and sneak into Yemen, the U.N. refugee agency said Tuesday. The exodus comes as the country's beleaguered president prepared for a meeting with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton next week. The UNHCR said nearly a quarter of a million Somalis had fled their homes since May 7, when newly unified Islamist insurgents launched a concerted attack on Mogadishu, the capital.

<snip>

Thirty-thousand Somalis have already made the crossing this year but more than 300 people have died or gone missing in the process. Redmond said aid agencies were fighting "a losing battle" trying to persuade Somalis not to go on the dangerous journey, where deaths from drownings, shootings, hunger or dehydration are common. "These people are obviously reaching the end of their rope. They see no future in Somalia and many of them are so desperate that they're willing to risk their lives and the lives of their families to escape," he said.

<snippity>

The impoverished Horn of Africa nation has not had a functioning government since clan leaders overthrew a socialist dictator in 1991 then turned on each other. Since then, clan rivalry has been complicated by sectarian tensions, the emergence of strong criminal gangs and the involvement of other countries.

Anarchy. Ain't it great to see man working in harmony and peacefull trade?

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Can we ship Injin there?

On second thoughts - ANYWHERE without an internet connection would be fine!

I'd hate to lose Injin. He may be wrong in his core belief*, but at least he thinks. More importantly, he makes others do so.

Anyway, I like to think of him in some beaten up Somalian hotel, his knees pressed up against the ironwork of his balcony with a drink in one hand, his netbook in the other, bashing out his thoughts from the front line.

*Actually, I don't think he has as much faith in anarchy as one might think.

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OK, very good. :lol: But seriously I would like to know.

It is a warzone.

There is no economy or functioning government, people are dying of disease & starvation etc etc

Not a good place to holiday or invest.

The pirates have calmed down a bit, they now realise people with much bigger guns will kill them and there are many nation's navies patrolling the waters.

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I cannot contribute any information whatsoever about Somalia. Oh, I can. Liverpool used to hve a lot of large, bossy, comparatively well off Somalian ladies who turned up at the Maternity Hospital to have their babies then stayed on. Isn't our Health Service/immigration system obliging.

Anyway, the OP raises a good point about the short attention span of our media, who instead feed us essential information about Big Brother and Amy Winehouse. Mental soya.

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How sad.

In antiquity, Somalia was an important center for commerce with the rest of the ancien world. Its sailors and merchants were the main suppliers of frankincense, myrrh and spices, items which were considered valuable luxuries by the Ancient Egyptians, Phoenicians, Mycenaean and Babylonians with whom the Somali people traded.According to most scholars, Somalia is also where the ancient Kingdom of Punt was situated. The ancient Puntites were a nation of people that had close relations with Pharaonic Egypt during the times of Pharaoh Sahure and Queen Hatshepsut. The pyramidal structures, temples and ancient houses of dressed stone littered around Somalia are said to date from this period. In the classical era, several ancient city-states such as Opone, Mosyllon and Malao that competed with the Sabaeans, Parthians and Axumites for the wealthy Indo-Greco-Roman trade also flourished in Somalia.

It seemed to be doing alright when it had a King.

Edited by Timm

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia

The Somali experience since the collapse of the state, and especially the failure of international intervention, has offered a clear challenge to elements of conventional economic, political and social order theory and the very premises under which Western diplomacy and development agencies operate,[9] and in particular, in the words of anthropologist Peter D. Little, "assumptions about the role of states in maintaining order and services"

In a 2007 study of the current state of education in Somalia since the collapse of central authority in 1991, Abdullahi Sheikh Abdinoor found that "the Somali people have adapted rather well, under the circumstances, to the absence of the state, despite continuing insecurity and lawlessness prevailing in the country."[9] Following the destruction of educational systems and infrastructure during the civil war, nascent educational institutions have emerged in anarchy; teachers and other educators who saw the need for education "quite spontaneously" opened their own institutions.[9] For-profit educational institutions were established simultaneously by entrepreneurial businessmen.[2]

For centuries, the Somali community, as opposed to the state, has been in charge of Islamic education in all aspects, providing financial and administrative support.[9] The majority of the schools are provided by the free market, sustained by school fees (typically $10 per month[17]); in cases where there are state-supported public schools, private schools are often coveted for their academic excellence, outperforming their public competitors in academic achievement tests.[9] The number of primary schools have risen from 600 before the civil war to 1,172 schools today, with an increase of 28% in primary school enrollment over the last 3 years.[25] Enrollment in secondary schools has also increased since 1998.[15] In Mogadishu, the Benadir University, the Somalia National University, and the Mogadishu University are three of the eight universities providing tertiary education in Southern Somalia.

Better than when it had a state, in other words.

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I must confess to not following this closely; all that the MSM reports is pirates.

Does anyone have any sound facts about what it's like there now? How ungoverned is it, and how does that work out?

How are they bailing out the banks and is their central bank buying Somalian bonds yet? :lol:

I can't comment on the place in general - I suspect it's an unremittingly awful hell-hole, but others may know the reality - but I know that it has (or maybe had, that could have changed) surprisingly good mobile phone networks:

http://www.economist.com/business/displays...y_id=E1_VPNRDTV

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4020259.stm

It does demonstrate that having no government can make certain things works better I guess.

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Quote from the FCO page:

a suicide bomb attack on 18 June, killing the Somali Security Minister...

Says it all, really.

Wikitravel doesn't pull any punches either, describing Mogadishu as 'the most lawless and dangerous city on Earth' and that 'independent travel is suicidal'. As for transport arrangements, 'It is possible to drive into the city by truck, but this is considered a risky activity, unless you employ a small battalion of local militia which are readily available for hire.'

The Institute for Advanced Motorists doesn't appear to hold much sway there, either:

Some reports say that to get through intersections near markets crowded with people, those wealthy enough to have vehicles fire machine guns into the air to clear a path. Safe travel through Mogadishu is only possible by convoy with heavily armed guides and guards, which actually can be hired quite easily. Even with guards, the likelihood of being injured, kidnapped, and/or killed is still very high. The only traffic rule that can be agreed upon is the traffic drives on the left side of the road.
.

The choice of local accomodation sounds enticing, too:

The Manager is very helpful, the staff is attentive, and the food is good ... a BBC producer was shot in the back and killed in front of the hotel in 2005, and two French citizens abducted by gunmen in 2009.

And apparently the main local souvenirs on offer in the city's markets are firearms and forged passports.

The place sounds like it would make a simulating change to the Costa del Hell, at any rate. And I'm sure that the landing fees at the airport would be to Michael O'Leary's liking.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia

Better than when it had a state, in other words.

Interesting.

I bet you liked this bit:

Journalist Kevin Sites, after a trip to anarchic Somalia, reported that "Somalia, though brutally poor, is a kind of libertarian's dream. Free enterprise flourishes, and vigorous commercial competition is the only form of regulation.

Somalia has some of the best telecommunications in Africa, with a handful of companies ready to wire home or office and provide crystal-clear service, including international long distance, for about $10 a month." Installation time for a land-line is just three days, while in the neighboring Kenya waiting lists are many years long. In other African countries public monopolies and licensing restrictions raise prices and hamper the spread of telecommunications. Abdullahi Mohammed Hussein of Telecom Somalia stated that "the government post and telecoms company used to have a monopoly but after the regime was toppled, we were free to set up our own business", The World Bank reported in 2007 that only about 1.5% of the population had a telephone resulting in the emergence of ten fiercely competitive telephone companies. According to the CIA World Factbook, private telephone companies "offer service in most major cities" via wireless technology, charging "the lowest international rates on the continent", while The New York Times has noted the private provision of mail services. The Economist cited the telephone industry in anarchic Somalia as "a vivid illustration of the way in which governments…can often be more of a hindrance than a help."

However, where Somalia is working, it seems to be because it has reverted to the Xeer: the clan based legal system. That sounds a bit more like minarchy to me.

Where it is not working, people are fleeing or dying.

Edited by Timm

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I'd hate to lose Injin. He may be wrong in his core belief*, but at least he thinks. More importantly, he makes others do so.

Anyway, I like to think of him in some beaten up Somalian hotel, his knees pressed up against the ironwork of his balcony with a drink in one hand, his netbook in the other, bashing out his thoughts from the front line.

*Actually, I don't think he has as much faith in anarchy as one might think.

LOL - i agree believe it or not - I quite enjoy some of his posts for their sheer daftness, and he does at time, make you think.

Its just such a shame that he cannot maintain a debate without resorting to 'banking is fraud' and 'goverment = men with guns' - without that, he may get a little more respect.

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Guest X-QUORK
The place sounds like it would make a simulating change to the Costa del Hell, at any rate. And I'm sure that the landing fees at the airport would be to Michael O'Leary's liking.

If O'Leary can make a Euro out of it he'll do it. Come to think of it, what better way to accclimatise to Mogadishu than 8 hours on a Ryan Air flight?

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Better than when it had a state, in other words.

Better - but still worse than all countries with a state.

From you same link.

The international aid group Médecins Sans Frontières stated that the level of daily violence during this period was "catastrophic".[14] A statistic from 2000 indicated that only 21% of the population had access to safe drinking water at that time, and Somalia had one of the highest child mortality rates in the world with 10% of children dying at birth and 25% of those surviving birth dying before age five.[3] Additionally, "adult literacy is estimated to have declined from the already low level of 24% in 1989 to 17.1% in 2001."[15] A more recent 2003 study reported that the literacy rate was 19%.[16] The impact on human development in Somalia of governmental collapse and ensuing civil war was profound, leading to the breakdown of political institutions, the destruction of social and economic infrastructure and massive internal and external migrations.[15]

According to a study by the libertarian think tank the Independent Institute,:[8]

In 2005, Somalia ranked in the top 50 percent in six of our 13 measures, and ranked near the bottom in only three: infant mortality, immunization rates, and access to improved water sources. This compares favorably with circumstances in 1990, when Somalia last had a government and was ranked in the bottom 50 percent for all seven of the measures for which we had that year’s data: death rate, infant mortality, life expectancy, main telephone lines, tuberculosis, and immunization for measles and DTP."

Sounds wonderful - must book a holiday immediately.

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Its just such a shame that he cannot maintain a debate without resorting to 'banking is fraud' and 'goverment = men with guns' - without that, he may get a little more respect.

If you think about it though, what else are they? By that I mean what is the essential difference between the government and some guy up the road that makes you feel that you have to hand a large share of your money to one and not to the other? What extra thing would he need to achieve the same compliance?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia

The Somali experience since the collapse of the state, and especially the failure of international intervention, has offered a clear challenge to elements of conventional economic, political and social order theory and the very premises under which Western diplomacy and development agencies operate,[9] and in particular, in the words of anthropologist Peter D. Little, "assumptions about the role of states in maintaining order and services"

In a 2007 study of the current state of education in Somalia since the collapse of central authority in 1991, Abdullahi Sheikh Abdinoor found that "the Somali people have adapted rather well, under the circumstances, to the absence of the state, despite continuing insecurity and lawlessness prevailing in the country."[9] Following the destruction of educational systems and infrastructure during the civil war, nascent educational institutions have emerged in anarchy; teachers and other educators who saw the need for education "quite spontaneously" opened their own institutions.[9] For-profit educational institutions were established simultaneously by entrepreneurial businessmen.[2]

For centuries, the Somali community, as opposed to the state, has been in charge of Islamic education in all aspects, providing financial and administrative support.[9] The majority of the schools are provided by the free market, sustained by school fees (typically $10 per month[17]); in cases where there are state-supported public schools, private schools are often coveted for their academic excellence, outperforming their public competitors in academic achievement tests.[9] The number of primary schools have risen from 600 before the civil war to 1,172 schools today, with an increase of 28% in primary school enrollment over the last 3 years.[25] Enrollment in secondary schools has also increased since 1998.[15] In Mogadishu, the Benadir University, the Somalia National University, and the Mogadishu University are three of the eight universities providing tertiary education in Southern Somalia.

Better than when it had a state, in other words.

You didn't write this wiki entry yourself did you?

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Its just such a shame that he cannot maintain a debate without resorting to 'banking is fraud' and 'goverment = men with guns' - without that, he may get a little more respect.

I'm with Injin and your brother on this.

Where I differ with Injin is what to do about it. Injin is quite sure he knows the best solution, and I am sure only that he is wrong, although I'm less sure about that these days, which is probably why I keep scrapping with him.

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