Stop The Ride Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 You can't use force to free anyone. How else do you free slaves from slave owners? Or are you just choosing to make the word force mean whatever you want it to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 How else do you free slaves from slave owners? Or are you just choosing to make the word force mean whatever you want it to? Slave owners were only slave owners because the government backed up their claim. if a slve runs off, what's some bloke on a farm going to do? The only thing that makes it work is a widespread system of policing. All that happened when the slaves were freed was that the governent stopped rounding them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Nope. In the same way as I wouldn't regard not being punched in the face as a benefit. The removal of a negative is not a positive. Right. So food is not a benefit, as it simply removes negative feelings of hunger? This is going to seem like a silly question - but have you ever seen it [people banding together] happen? You don't get out much, do you? It happens everywhere, every day. It happens in schools in Scotland (I've seen it), it happens in academia in Oxford (I've seen it), it happens on a Friday night in Staines (I've seen it, and can confirm that not being punched again in the face is very much a benefit), I've also seen it on the Discovery Channel and the History Channel. When I turn on the TV I see eastern people in red doing it and western Europeans doing it under an orange flag or a green flag. Sometimes I go on demonstrations, and I see people doing it there. Sometimes they even do it under a black flag. Edited July 28, 2009 by Timm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Multiple governments within a country would have the same effect as multiple tumours in one body. Government IS the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Slave owners were only slave owners because the government backed up their claim. if a slve runs off, what's some bloke on a farm going to do?The only thing that makes it work is a widespread system of policing. All that happened when the slaves were freed was that the governent stopped rounding them up. Nope. Slaves existed before police forces. Edited July 28, 2009 by Timm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stop The Ride Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Slave owners were only slave owners because the government backed up their claim. if a slve runs off, what's some bloke on a farm going to do?The only thing that makes it work is a widespread system of policing. All that happened when the slaves were freed was that the governent stopped rounding them up. Incorrect on a question of fact, this time. There are slaves in this country. The government does not back up the claim, but does little to interfere (right up your street, I'd say). If the slaves ran off, they would not be returned. They are held by force by the slave owners and lackeys. If I find out where there is a slave and take a big stick and beat up the slave owner and free the slave, am I (according to you) not using force, or not freeing the slave, or both? It must be one of those options because you say that you cannot use force to free anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Right.So food is not a benefit, as it simply removes negative feelings of hunger? You don't get out much, do you? It happens everywhere, every day. It happens in schools in Scotland (I've seen it), it happens in academia in Oxford (I've seen it), it happens on a Friday night in Staines (I've seen it, and can confirm that not being punched again in the face is very much a benefit), I've also seen it on the Discovery Channel and the History Channel. When I turn on the TV I see eastern people in red doing it and western Europeans doing it under an orange flag or a green flag. Sometimes I go on demonstrations, and I see people doing it there. Sometimes they even do it under a black flag. Nooooo that wasn't my question. I said have you ever seen someone physically aggress against someone else ..for that other persons self protection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Nope.Slaves existed before police forces. System of policing slaves =/= police force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Nooooo that wasn't my question.I said have you ever seen someone physically aggress against someone else ..for that other persons self protection? Really? This is the conversation I was having with you: They will always be afraid that bullies will band together to control them, and will make sure to band together first. Presumably after having a frontal lobotomy. It's what people (and most mammals) do. Do they?This is going to seem like a silly question - but have you ever seen it happen? As you can see, I was talking about people banding together. I'm not sure where you got this attacking someone to make that person safer stuff from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 System of policing slaves =/= police force. What does =/= mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMAC67 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Multiple governments within a country would have the same effect as multiple tumours in one body.Government IS the problem. Exactly, government is the problem, but people continue to support it because they have been programmed to. They simply cannot help it, they cannot imagine a world beyond their cage. Countries like Somalia are in perpetual turmoil, because people keep trying to form a government. Government is simply systematic coercien, violence, and death. People aren't naturally violent, only people that have been "civilised" can make that claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 "They will always be afraid that bullies will band together to control them, and will make sure to band together first." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 What does =/= mean? I often wonder. Was trying to say doesn't equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weebag Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Exactly, government is the problem, but people continue to support it because they have been programmed to. And yet you HAVEN'T been programmed? How did that happen? Did they miss you out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Exactly, government is the problem, but people continue to support it because they have been programmed to. They simply cannot help it, they cannot imagine a world beyond their cage. Countries like Somalia are in perpetual turmoil, because people keep trying to form a government. Government is simply systematic coercien, violence, and death. People aren't naturally violent, only people that have been "civilised" can make that claim. Oh please. We are just gentle little herbivores who had violence forced on us by the state. Even in places where we have not yet managed to form a state. In uncivilised countries there is no violence. People who do not labour under the yoke of government are not greedy or scared or bullies or paranoid. They do not form into tribes or have leaders or protect what they see as "theirs" with violence. The fact is we have an instinct to band together, because that is what protected us from the big cats, and let us slaughter the grass eaters so we could slake our hunger for flesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 "They will always be afraid that bullies will band together to control them, and will make sure to band together first." I know I said that, and I know why I said it. But I have no idea why you said it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMAC67 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Of course I have been programmed you muppet, we all have. Perhaps the simple difference is that I study anthropology. Guess what, human beings are a lot older than civilisation. As an example, our current God of choice is approximately 2500 years old and is based on a local Babylonian fertility god. However, human being have been cooking their food for approximately 2million years. Our current civilisation is round about 6000 years old, our industrial age a few hundred, and the current fiat money system just under 40 years old. Put simply, what we assume is normal is anything but, it is also rather short lived although due to the short life span of the average human it is easy to see how we are suckered into believing what we see is normality. I understand that what I live in is a short lived artificial construct, just because it has existed as long as I have been on the planet does not mean that it will continue to do so. The value of your investments can go down as well as up. The fantastically clever part of the current system is that the elites quickly figured out they were outnumbered and simply couldn't afford enough people to maintain the status quo. Instead they created a system that was self regulating by propagating the belief that it was the way it was mean't to be, that is the value of religion. People then become self regulating and will maintain their own prison cell, quite brilliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I know I said that, and I know why I said it.But I have no idea why you said it. If the purpose of banding together is to bully, then the response is to bank together. To bully. Insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 If the purpose of banding together is to bully, then the response is to bank together. To bully. Insane. Yes. To both points. But I'm not banking with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Of course I have been programmed you muppet, we all have. Perhaps the simple difference is that I study anthropology. Guess what, human beings are a lot older than civilisation. As an example, our current God of choice is approximately 2500 years old and is based on a local Babylonian fertility god. However, human being have been cooking their food for approximately 2million years. Our current civilisation is round about 6000 years old, our industrial age a few hundred, and the current fiat money system just under 40 years old. Put simply, what we assume is normal is anything but, it is also rather short lived although due to the short life span of the average human it is easy to see how we are suckered into believing what we see is normality.I understand that what I live in is a short lived artificial construct, just because it has existed as long as I have been on the planet does not mean that it will continue to do so. The value of your investments can go down as well as up. The fantastically clever part of the current system is that the elites quickly figured out they were outnumbered and simply couldn't afford enough people to maintain the status quo. Instead they created a system that was self regulating by propagating the belief that it was the way it was mean't to be, that is the value of religion. People then become self regulating and will maintain their own prison cell, quite brilliant. Interesting. How much of the programming do you think is nature, and how much nurture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankster Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Government is an absolutely mental idea. If we didn't have them by historical accident, no one would ever advocate them. There is no social or economic situation where anyone woudl opt to make a government. There just isn't. It's just a mad relic from the days when people believed some men were the sons of gods and all that crap. What would you replace governments with, though? Military rule? Sharia Law? Libertarianism / anarchism? An absolute monarchy? A Criminocracy? There really are some very silly ideas being promoted on HPC these days! Edited July 28, 2009 by blankster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weebag Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Of course I have been programmed you muppet, we all have. Perhaps the simple difference is that I study anthropology. Thanks for that 'im better than you becuase I study anthropology' ******. If you have been programmed too, then your studies are also part of the programming - and you have no free will. Which again is complete ******. Im notsaying that the (any) government is the answer to our problems - just that life would not be all sunshine and roses without one. For millions of years we had no organised governments - but, as you study anthropology, what DID we have? Was there a heirarchy? Did someone / a group of people have overall control? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 What would you replace governments with, though? Military rule? Sharia Law? Libertarianism / anarchism? An absolute monarchy? A Criminocracy? There really are some very silly ideas being promoted on HPC these days! What do you replace fire with? What do you replace rape with? What do you replace religious insanity with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMAC67 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 You simply do not understand Weebag, you really have to do some reading, and then some thinking. I cannot discuss it rationally with you because you simply do not have a framework of reference. People are not naturally violent, they are peaceful, they do not form heirarchies unless they are civilised. Civilisation started with agriculture, violence and war are endemic within civilisation (from the latin Civitas meaning city). It is a short term arrangement that will die off with the reduced availability of energy. Governments are a relatively new arrangement and is only valid within civilised society. Civilisation due to its inherent self destructive nature will simply cease to exist. I always thought it would be long after I have gone, but it would appear now that this is not the case. Multiple governments, got that already, doesn't work, never will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 What do you replace fire with?What do you replace rape with? What do you replace religious insanity with? Sorry, is fire evil now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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