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bogbrush

Bored Of Blaming Bankers?

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If we're going to get anything from the aftermath of this crapheap, I believe the real lesson has to be that this was caused by the people. The people of this nation (and most of the Western World) are the problem, because we have lost sight of some really basic fundamental facts like

* you come into this world with nothing

* nobody owes you anything

* anyone promising you stuff for nothing is a shyster, especially if he's campaigning for public office.

* borrowing puts you in the power of another

It's the public who vote in governments that promise them their cake and who chose to borrow for stuff. You don't like bankers? Fine, don't borrow from them, then they have no power over you. You don't buy into their false currency? Fine, hold your savings in commodities or useful stuff.

Sure, they're frauds and shits but many individuals - and the nation collectively through the government - live their lives through conspiring in the fraud. As far I see it, it's pretty rich to live off the fraud and then cry foul when it falls apart.

I'm not a religious man but sometimes I can see why religious laws came about; people seem to have a habit of behaving like children, and children need rules to stop them hurting themselves. So you get the 10 Commandments, or Islam forbids charging interest and so on. In the absence of credible religion consensus (if that's how we're going, I hope) we're going to need a collective growing up to happen. And that starts with taking responsibility.

The people caused this mess.

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- people can be manipulated

- even if you don't borrow from the bankers, their lending to others drives up asset prices and fixed costs -- they do have power over you

- even if you try to withdraw from the fraudulent economy, you'll still be assessed for tax meaning you're forced to participate

- any bunch of people would have had a similar outcome, given the same direction of the educational, opinion-forming, banking and political elites.

People can't resist before they have an understanding what is being done.

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Guest Steve Cook
- people can be manipulated

- even if you don't borrow from the bankers, their lending to others drives up asset prices and fixed costs -- they do have power over you

- even if you try to withdraw from the fraudulent economy, you'll still be assessed for tax meaning you're forced to participate

- any bunch of people would have had a similar outcome, given the same direction of the educational, opinion-forming, banking and political elites.

People can't resist before they have an understanding what is being done.

precisely

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Guest BoomBoomCrash
If we're going to get anything from the aftermath of this crapheap, I believe the real lesson has to be that this was caused by the people. The people of this nation (and most of the Western World) are the problem, because we have lost sight of some really basic fundamental facts like

* you come into this world with nothing

* nobody owes you anything

* anyone promising you stuff for nothing is a shyster, especially if he's campaigning for public office.

* borrowing puts you in the power of another

It's the public who vote in governments that promise them their cake and who chose to borrow for stuff. You don't like bankers? Fine, don't borrow from them, then they have no power over you. You don't buy into their false currency? Fine, hold your savings in commodities or useful stuff.

Sure, they're frauds and shits but many individuals - and the nation collectively through the government - live their lives through conspiring in the fraud. As far I see it, it's pretty rich to live off the fraud and then cry foul when it falls apart.

I'm not a religious man but sometimes I can see why religious laws came about; people seem to have a habit of behaving like children, and children need rules to stop them hurting themselves. So you get the 10 Commandments, or Islam forbids charging interest and so on. In the absence of credible religion consensus (if that's how we're going, I hope) we're going to need a collective growing up to happen. And that starts with taking responsibility.

The people caused this mess.

'collective', strange choice of words from someone so vociferous in their condemnation of the very idea of there being a state.

Edited by BoomBoomCrash

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Guest The Relaxation Suite
The people caused this mess.

Some of the people. Most of the people in my family work full-time, save most of their earnings and have done so all their lives. They own second-hand cars and obtained mortgages on houses they could realistically afford to pay off in 25 years or less.

So we must turn our attention to the prats who feel they deserve brand new BMWs, five bedroom McMansions and three holidays to Thailand every year despite being very ordinary people on rather less than ordinary wages.

Sadly, the governments of the world are currently trying to make the former pay for the latter by destroying their savings. Why? Because the governments of the world fallin into the second category. It is the election system that is at fault - when govts. promise the great unwashed the earth for nothing.

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I'm not a religious person, but it's quite interesting the religious aspect of finance. I didn't even know what usary was until I started reading this site. And as for Jesus throwing the money lenders out of them temple, Christ he had a good idea!

As for it's we the peoples fault, I don't think so. It's definitely Kirsty Allsops fault. She blatantly encouraged the greed, and said it was without risk.

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If we're going to get anything from the aftermath of this crapheap, I believe the real lesson has to be that this was caused by the people. The people of this nation (and most of the Western World) are the problem, because we have lost sight of some really basic fundamental facts like

* you come into this world with nothing...

Most people come into the world with nothing, some people come into the world with quite a lot. It is really important not to expect something for nothing if you aren't one of those people; and to expect nothing less if you are.

This is called the efficient market hypothesis.

Edited by the wizard

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If we're going to get anything from the aftermath of this crapheap, I believe the real lesson has to be that this was caused by the people. The people of this nation (and most of the Western World) are the problem, because we have lost sight of some really basic fundamental facts like

* you come into this world with nothing

* nobody owes you anything

* anyone promising you stuff for nothing is a shyster, especially if he's campaigning for public office.

* borrowing puts you in the power of another

It's the public who vote in governments that promise them their cake and who chose to borrow for stuff. You don't like bankers? Fine, don't borrow from them, then they have no power over you. You don't buy into their false currency? Fine, hold your savings in commodities or useful stuff.

Sure, they're frauds and shits but many individuals - and the nation collectively through the government - live their lives through conspiring in the fraud. As far I see it, it's pretty rich to live off the fraud and then cry foul when it falls apart.

I'm not a religious man but sometimes I can see why religious laws came about; people seem to have a habit of behaving like children, and children need rules to stop them hurting themselves. So you get the 10 Commandments, or Islam forbids charging interest and so on. In the absence of credible religion consensus (if that's how we're going, I hope) we're going to need a collective growing up to happen. And that starts with taking responsibility.

The people caused this mess.

The final and common feature of the speculative episode - in stock markets, real estate, art , or junk bonds-is what happens after the inevitable crash. This, invariably, will be a time of anger and recrimination and also of profoundly unsubtle introspection. The anger will fix upon the individuals who were previously most admired for their financial imagination and acuity. Some of them, having been persuaded of their own exemption from confining orthodoxy, will, as noted, have gone beyond the law, and their fall and ,occasionally, their incarceration will now be viewed with righteous satisfaction.

There will also be be scrutiny of the previously much-praised financial instruments and practices-paper money; implausible securities issues; insider trading; market rigging; more recently, program and index trading- that have facilitated and financed the speculation. There will be talk of regulation and reform. What will not be discussed is the speculation itself or the aberrant optimism that lay behind it. Nothing is more remarkable than this: in the aftermath of speculation, the reality will be all but ignored.

...whereas it is acceptable to attribute error, gullibility, and excess to a single individual or even to a particular corporation, it is not deemed fitting to attribute them to a whole community.....

John Kenneth Galbraith

A short History of Financial Euphoria.

(my edition) 1990.

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...I believe the real lesson has to be that this was caused by the people...

Bloody brilliant! Well said that man. We now have lots of the wealth of this country locked up in over-priced houses. Redistribution, that old Labour buzz word, has yet to make a comeback. Yet until it does, we will still be the country of haves (that's me, thank you very much), and have nots (that's my kids, aw, shame).

My view, that I've voice on this site a few times, is that only when the majority of the people manage to shaft themselves, will they force the politicians, who normally only follow public opinion in any case, to change things. That's why, for example, I believe that when there is a critical mass of over 65s that still vote, they will have the power to force the rest of society to pay for their retirement by putting up income tax (on the rest of the society :-).

It is likely the Tories will win the next election, but it is equally likely that turnout will be reduced even more, thus invalidating even more the legitimacy of any win. Is it five years, ten years, 15 years before the establishment is forced to make a U-turn? It will come, just as the housing crash has come.

Interesting, if frightening, times. Now where's my Yellow Pages? I need to find "steel gate manufacturers."

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- people can be manipulated

- even if you don't borrow from the bankers, their lending to others drives up asset prices and fixed costs -- they do have power over you

- even if you try to withdraw from the fraudulent economy, you'll still be assessed for tax meaning you're forced to participate

- any bunch of people would have had a similar outcome, given the same direction of the educational, opinion-forming, banking and political elites.

People can't resist before they have an understanding what is being done.

+1

Blame is still with the banks/government.

people have it instilled in them that you work to buy a house, you take on a mortgage to own your own house. Debt is fine, it is how you buy a house and a car.

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It's definitely Kirsty Allsops fault.

And / or Anthea.

Seriously though peoples greed had a lot to do with this mess.

Bankers (with Erics liar loans) just allowed the people to be greedy.

Lax government allowed the bankers to risk the financial system.

For me the problem started with the people and worked upwards.

It did not start with the government and work downwards.

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And / or Anthea.

Seriously though peoples greed had a lot to do with this mess.

Bankers (with Erics liar loans) just allowed the people to be greedy.

Lax government allowed the bankers to risk the financial system.

For me the problem started with the people and worked upwards.

It did not start with the government and work downwards.

it did start with the government, it started with state education when the seeds are planted for becoming a good slave.

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it did start with the government, it started with state education when the seeds are planted for becoming a good slave.

that is some wierd conspiracy theory you have there.

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that is some wierd conspiracy theory you have there.

not really, ever read Dumbing Us Down: the Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling by john gatto? you should.

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I'm with the OP on this one.

* you come into this world with nothing

* nobody owes you anything

* anyone promising you stuff for nothing is a shyster, especially if he's campaigning for public office.

* borrowing puts you in the power of another

The people caused this mess with their greed.

All the banks did was enable the greed to grow.

All the goverments did was not rein-in the banks risky stance.

The cause of the problems were the greedy people.

The effect of the problems are hitting everyone now.

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I'm with the OP on this one.

* you come into this world with nothing

* nobody owes you anything

* anyone promising you stuff for nothing is a shyster, especially if he's campaigning for public office.

* borrowing puts you in the power of another

The people caused this mess with their greed.

All the banks did was enable the greed to grow.

All the goverments did was not rein-in the banks risky stance.

The cause of the problems were the greedy people.

The effect of the problems are hitting everyone now.

the banks didn't just enable greed to grow, they actively encouraged it. The banks caused it, people got greedy on credit - had the banks not been giving away credit so freely then the situation would not have arisen.

in the days that people had to see a bank manager to get a loan there was none of this debt and mess, people saved their money and didn't buy what they couldn't afford.

In the days when banks are falling over themselves to give you cash over the phone and cc companies are posting approved applications to you on a daily basis then the feckless, caught up in the boom acted like kids in a sweet shop.

BUT, the feckless that mewed, spunked money on holidays, cars and clothes, btl's - their debts combined are a drop in the ocean compared to what the banks have managed to gamble away.

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The view of a number of posters seems to be that it's not peoples fault because they were encouraged.. In some cases posters have argued you're pressurised.

This is my point; it's about being grown up.

Remember at school the whole thing were you were in trouble and you told the teacher that so-and-so told you to do it? Then she says "If he told you to put your hand in the fire would you?" and then you're supposed to say "No miss" and move on?

Well this is what I'm talking about. Sure there is temptation and encouragement; pressure even, but in the end humans have got to learn to be responsible for their own actions. It's no good bleating on about how people can be manipulated - we have to take responsibility for the mess we make ourselves, and even for the power we give to people by behaving as we do.

Right now I see bankers as drug pushers and this recession as some credit cold turkey; trouble is that the pushers are lining up to find more stuff. The responsibility to get off this thing lies with ourselves, nobody else is going to help, and if we do then Goldman Sachs and the rest can play with their toys as much as they like but they'll make no money beyond the modest returns from facilitating wealth storage and transactions. You can't run a New World Order on that.

Nobody had to do any of this, they did it to themselves.

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BUT, the feckless that mewed, spunked money on holidays, cars and clothes, btl's - their debts combined are a drop in the ocean compared to what the banks have managed to gamble away.

In a World where it didn't matter to us because we don't depend on them for juice it wouldn't matter, they'd be like any casino loser. Our debt makes them "indispensible".

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'collective', strange choice of words from someone so vociferous in their condemnation of the very idea of there being a state.

:blink:

Baffled. It's a word with a definition, nothing to do with the state.

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No, its the bankers.

100%

they : circumvented LAWS, International Laws to enable money to become cheap and risk free.

they : lent on the rise in value of assets that THEY caused the rise of.

they : promised investors, pension funds and governments that the new investments were SAFE

they : created a network of middlement to ensure that any charges of imprudent lending fell on the shoulders of others.

they : created a bonus culture where cheifs were rewarded for profits yet to materialise

they : persuaded governments to leave them to a Light touch regime of controls with the promise of riches to the treasuries

they : GAVE ex politicians lucrative positions on retirement, indeed in the US, even supplied the politicians and "experts".

On NO, to say the bankers were not to blame is to ignore the trail of MONEY that leads directly back to them.

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- people can be manipulated

Far easier when they have no core position of their own. I know people of modest means who passed this whole thing by. We have to look at that group and find out what distinguishes them.

I suspect we'll find maturity to be the key differentiator.

- even if you don't borrow from the bankers, their lending to others drives up asset prices and fixed costs -- they do have power over you

No, all they make you do is rent for longer; they allow you to buy beyond your means, and that's the trap.

- even if you try to withdraw from the fraudulent economy, you'll still be assessed for tax meaning you're forced to participate

Participate in the transaction element only, and there's little money and no power over you for them in that.

- any bunch of people would have had a similar outcome, given the same direction of the educational, opinion-forming, banking and political elites.

That's why people need to grow up and stop needing to be told what to do.

People can't resist before they have an understanding what is being done.

Quite. And let's hope the lesson of this event isn't lost. I hope it becomes vastly worse because although that's a hideous thought, it's the only hope to snap out of it. Debt really isn't wealth, it's slavery. Teach your kids that and you've done half your duty as a parent.

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No, its the bankers.

100%

they : circumvented LAWS, International Laws to enable money to become cheap and risk free.

they : lent on the rise in value of assets that THEY caused the rise of.

they : promised investors, pension funds and governments that the new investments were SAFE

they : created a network of middlement to ensure that any charges of imprudent lending fell on the shoulders of others.

they : created a bonus culture where cheifs were rewarded for profits yet to materialise

they : persuaded governments to leave them to a Light touch regime of controls with the promise of riches to the treasuries

they : GAVE ex politicians lucrative positions on retirement, indeed in the US, even supplied the politicians and "experts".

On NO, to say the bankers were not to blame is to ignore the trail of MONEY that leads directly back to them.

All nasty stuff, but until it was made compulsory to utilise their drug we have to be more self-critical. In an informed population, whose fault is it really when you get lung cancer from smoking? Philip Morris? Afraid not.

Time for us all to grow up and tell them we don't want their drug. Their power will fade in an instant.

How else are you going to fix this? Try to breed nice bankers? Make banking illegal? I doubt it.

Edited by bogbrush

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