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garybug

Contactless Debit Cards

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I recieved, unsolicited I might add, a new debit card from my bank. I called to check it was genuine, as my existuing card still has over 2 years before expiry. Turns out it is genuine, and part of a 'trial' to see if customers are happy with it. The card has 4 'wave' curved lines on the top RHS

This raises a few issues I reckon:

  • First off, no-one asked me if I wanted it
  • Could they be 'scanned' invisibly, e.g. by sitting next to someone
  • Could a fraudster send out a card, using this as an excuse, to have a legitimate card with a valid, medium term expiry date chucked in the bin, & a 'fake' card used to record a PIN number (far fetched & probably not workable - granted..)

Maybe I'm being a luddite, but something about the process of not requiring a chip & pin (which is not fraudproof I'm led to believe anyway) make me uncomfortable..

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I recieved, unsolicited I might add, a new debit card from my bank. I called to check it was genuine, as my existuing card still has over 2 years before expiry. Turns out it is genuine, and part of a 'trial' to see if customers are happy with it. The card has 4 'wave' curved lines on the top RHS

This raises a few issues I reckon:

  • First off, no-one asked me if I wanted it

  • Could they be 'scanned' invisibly, e.g. by sitting next to someone

  • Could a fraudster send out a card, using this as an excuse, to have a legitimate card with a valid, medium term expiry date chucked in the bin, & a 'fake' card used to record a PIN number (far fetched & probably not workable - granted..)

Maybe I'm being a luddite, but something about the process of not requiring a chip & pin (which is not fraudproof I'm led to believe anyway) make me uncomfortable..

'fraudproof' is a relative concept - if the comparison is against using cash, then debit cards etc are actually much more secure and reliable, but people get paranoid about them as they don't know the technology so well.

edit to add: as a rule, even where not covered in the small print, credit/debit card issuers cover most fraud themselves as to do otherwise would make them look bad, afaik, and the overall % costs to them are small.

Edited by Si1

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Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable

Send it back with a note saying, "I'lle ha' nunne o' ye vyle wytchery in mye housse."

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just imagine how nice it would be to put all your shopping into your trolley, and walk straight out of the shop and something automatically scan what you had bought and charge you.

Thats the sort of technlogy we need. I also never understoof why these credit card companies didnt push through finger print readers. Admittedly the records would probably have been requested by the police for their database, so maybe a bad idea :ph34r:

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Thats the sort of technlogy we need. I also never understoof why these credit card companies didnt push through finger print readers.

it's just cost / benefit

fingerprint readers would cost a lot more than chip and pin, and given that, the fraud levels are acceptable with chip and pin, they are worth it for a cheaper system. It's all about relative costs, again.

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just imagine how nice it would be to put all your shopping into your trolley, and walk straight out of the shop and something automatically scan what you had bought and charge you.

Thats the sort of technlogy we need. I also never understoof why these credit card companies didnt push through finger print readers. Admittedly the records would probably have been requested by the police for their database, so maybe a bad idea :ph34r:

With the amount of personal info being traded around by companies for cash, would you really trust them with your fingerprints?? I pay cash at supermarkets as much as possible, as I do not want to provide Tesco information about my shopping habits.

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Metal-> Paper -> Card -> Chip -> Contactless -> ....

Implanted?

:ph34r:

It's the next logical phase I reckon, so this seems the very thin end of the wedge to me. Would you agree to an implanted chip for 'convenience..'

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It is only for individual payments of up to £10. And even these are only in certain retailers that have the hardware in place. They have an automatic fraud detection system behind most as well. How well this works in anyones guess - however I wouldn't be too worried about losing hundreds or thousands on it.

I was actually subject to a 4 figures debit card fraud a few weeks back. Dodgy strip club in Germany. Currently being looked at by my Banks fraud team. They were actually spot on. Automated system stopped a 3rd dodgy transaction going through. Called me the next day and cancelled the card straight away. If they give me my cash back I will love them !!

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Would you agree to an implanted chip for 'convenience..'

Dunno about implanted, but swallowed with salt and vinegar would be OK.

Edited by hedgefunded

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With the amount of personal info being traded around by companies for cash, would you really trust them with your fingerprints?? I pay cash at supermarkets as much as possible, as I do not want to provide Tesco information about my shopping habits.

For me finger prints and credit cards would be another erosion of privacy and what happens when they lose the data. I can change a pin but not finger prints. Cash is king...but in our control society it is frowned on because it can not be easily traced by our masters. Cash now equals money laundering.

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just imagine how nice it would be to put all your shopping into your trolley, and walk straight out of the shop and something automatically scan what you had bought and charge you.

that what i like about the big Sainsbury's near me, you scan your shopping with a gun on your way round, and pack your bags at the same time. You get to see the running total £ so you can see if you really can afford that bottle if whiskey, instead of waiting till you get ot the till have have a slight embarasment when you have ot ask to put the bottle back.

you get ot the till, (special dedicated till for the gun only, normally no more than 1 person infront when there is 30 people queued for every other till) hand the gun over, and anythnig that didnt scan, leave all your shopping in the trolley, pay and your on your way

its a fantastic idea, and one i go out of my way to use, as it makes shopping easier and quicker, i haveo nly seen 1 Sainsbury's do this, and no other supermarket does

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With the amount of personal info being traded around by companies for cash, would you really trust them with your fingerprints?? I pay cash at supermarkets as much as possible, as I do not want to provide Tesco information about my shopping habits.

In an ideal world where the government wasnt working against us, and 90% of what we were told werent lies then yes I wouldnt have any problem with it. But I live in a country where I dont trust the government, media, police or courts.

A fingerprint is the ultimate convenience, you always have it with you. It cant be stolen, as there are pulses in live fingers and none in dead cut off ones. :-)

Although Im sure Tesco love knowing what people buy so they can look at customer dermagraphics to better target products, I cant think of too much they can do to harm you by knowing if you like their own brand beans or Heinz. The only thing I can think of (in Sarah Connor mode) is that paying by credit card and or using a store card tracks where you are at a specific time, which cash does not.

Edited by Johnny Storm

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that what i like about the big Sainsbury's near me, you scan your shopping with a gun on your way round, and pack your bags at the same time. You get to see the running total £ so you can see if you really can afford that bottle if whiskey, instead of waiting till you get ot the till have have a slight embarasment when you have ot ask to put the bottle back.

you get ot the till, (special dedicated till for the gun only, normally no more than 1 person infront when there is 30 people queued for every other till) hand the gun over, and anythnig that didnt scan, leave all your shopping in the trolley, pay and your on your way

its a fantastic idea, and one i go out of my way to use, as it makes shopping easier and quicker, i haveo nly seen 1 Sainsbury's do this, and no other supermarket does

Errr Waitrose have had it implemented at a large number of their stores for a good few years now.

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Cash now equals money laundering.

Agreed - I moved 18k in cash a few weeks back & had to jump through hoops to not only pull it out - but also to deposit it. Bought a bike over the weekend for 1.5k & paid cash for that too - the shop assistants face was a picture...

Out of principle, i.e. the gov can keep their beady eyes & filthy mitts off, I only use cash now.

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i have only seen 1 Sainsbury's do this, and no other supermarket does
Errr Waitrose have had it implemented at a large number of their stores for a good few years now.

cool, like i said i have only seen 1 Sainsbury's do this, and we dont have any large Waitrose's near me

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that what i like about the big Sainsbury's near me, you scan your shopping with a gun on your way round, and pack your bags at the same time. You get to see the running total £ so you can see if you really can afford that bottle if whiskey, instead of waiting till you get ot the till have have a slight embarasment when you have ot ask to put the bottle back.

Don't be a silly billy: of course you can "afford" it. This is after all plastic we are talking about. ;)

Give it a while and we'll all be "affording" stuff we never really intended to buy. Like the admission to the car park, invisibly swiped even before we'd decided whether we really wanted to walk quite that far to the store, or the 17:20 to Doncaster, having leant through the carriage window just a little too far to peck the gf on the cheek, or that film screening which we got swiped for, having taken the wrong turn from the bogs, not to mention all those congestion charges, £100 parking fines and disputed speed violations. Ah yes, what a wonderful world it will be, especially for the hackers!

Of course, it won't be so good for the poor old till assistants. Shame seeing as the superstores seem to be the only job creators in the country. S'pose they'll find work stacking / merchandising. Yep, every aisle will have a retrained till assistant, brandishing a tray of nu-flava-Philadelphia caked crackers and urging you to "give it a try". Oh joy!

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A fingerprint is the ultimate convenience, you always have it with you. It cant be stolen, as there are pulses in live fingers and none in dead cut off ones. :-)

A fingerprint certainly can be stolen. The police do it routinely as part of investigations ;) I'm sure it would be quite simple to manufacture an artificial fingerprint that you can put on a live finger. Your security data can then be stolen anywhere without your knowledge.

They can also malfunction, especially if you do manual work.

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A fingerprint certainly can be stolen. The police do it routinely as part of investigations ;) I'm sure it would be quite simple to manufacture an artificial fingerprint that you can put on a live finger. Your security data can then be stolen anywhere without your knowledge.

They can also malfunction, especially if you do manual work.

Yes, one of the biggest myths about biometrics is that there is no way to 'steal' them. And try changing your fingerprints like you change your password!

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A fingerprint is the ultimate convenience, you always have it with you. It cant be stolen, as there are pulses in live fingers and none in dead cut off ones. :-)

dude, if the data it represents can be read, by definition it can be stolen and emulated.

I think you'd be surprised by exactly what can be done. Take a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_analysis

When you've read that, ask yourself "how hard is print hacking? Then ask yourself how you'd go about changing your hacked and therefore useless finger print.

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A fingerprint certainly can be stolen. The police do it routinely as part of investigations ;) I'm sure it would be quite simple to manufacture an artificial fingerprint that you can put on a live finger. Your security data can then be stolen anywhere without your knowledge.

It is

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Thats the sort of technlogy we need. I also never understoof why these credit card companies didnt push through finger print readers. Admittedly the records would probably have been requested by the police for their database, so maybe a bad idea :ph34r:

Far too many false negatives with fingerprints (something like 1 in a 100 , and the banks required 1 in 100,000 to be viable, when I last read about it)

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dude, if the data it represents can be read, by definition it can be stolen and emulated.

I think you'd be surprised by exactly what can be done. Take a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_analysis

When you've read that, ask yourself "how hard is print hacking? Then ask yourself how you'd go about changing your hacked and therefore useless finger print.

It's a good job we've got 10 digits in total then - unless you come from Norwich, in which case there are benefits from being inbreeding socialists.

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It's a good job we've got 10 digits in total then - unless you come from Norwich, in which case there are benefits from being inbreeding socialists.

... all of which makes you wonder whether f-print tech wasn't really just a ploy to separate yakuza from the fruits of their crimes! :P

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edit to add: as a rule, even where not covered in the small print, credit/debit card issuers cover most fraud by spreading the cost across all customers through higher charges as to do otherwise would make them look bad, afaik, and the overall % costs to them are small.

Corrected.

Edited by CrashConnoisseur

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