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Abstra

Third World America

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Guest The Relaxation Suite
They live in tent City's and behave like this.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...GCA&q=sicko

The American nightmare! You can have it. Don't come here unless you like hanging from lamposts! LOL.

The US is closer to disunity now than at any time since 1860, IMO. A lot of British people don't understand the American notion of the "state" at all, so might laugh at this statement, but America is a society that was born of revolution, and the average US citizen is less dependent on the state than the average European as well, so has less to lose. And now you've got 37 million angry armed people in CA realising their state is bankrupt and they can't pay public workers. My advice would be get sa far away from CA sa you can because if anything happens it'll happen there first.

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The US is closer to disunity now than at any time since 1860, IMO. A lot of British people don't understand the American notion of the "state" at all, so might laugh at this statement, but America is a society that was born of revolution, and the average US citizen is less dependent on the state than the average European as well, so has less to lose. And now you've got 37 million angry armed people in CA realising their state is bankrupt and they can't pay public workers. My advice would be get sa far away from CA sa you can because if anything happens it'll happen there first.

American Pschi seems to be a hatred of anything not capatalist. Its like a Religion, capatalism and the markets will solve all ill's. No wonder they all turn to the church for a sense of security. Their society offers none that I can see.

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They live in tent City's and behave like this.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...GCA&q=sicko

The American nightmare! You can have it. Don't come here unless you like hanging from lamposts! LOL.

nice link Abstra, just been watching it for the last 30 mins, still on now.

'r' seems to think that a big shakeup is coming in US healthcare..... :ph34r:

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nice link Abstra, just been watching it for the last 30 mins, still on now.

'r' seems to think that a big shakeup is coming in US healthcare..... :ph34r:

Needs to be shaken up. If you make a claim then following years your condition and medications could be excluded if you repeat. The poor sod who had multiple heart attacks was stuffed from the start and then his wife gets cancer. Multiple deductibles. It's abysmal. So people take shortcuts and end up dying early.

The guy who was rejected from medical plan because he was too thin!!!!! FFS he wasn't anorexic.

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There won't be any armed revolution because most of them are too fat and unfit. And can't be arsed.

Edited by Dubai

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The US medical system is a form of rent seeking. You are not permitted to practice medicine unless licensed and the number of people trained and thus licensed is restricted to ensure high profit margins for the doctors. They say they must earn a lot to pay for the training, yet willingness to pay is not the restriction, it is the number of trainee places. The vast bulk of a doctors work is not even highly skilled. They see patient after patient with the common complaints and diagnosis together with text book treatment could be offered by much less skilled workers. It is simply a body of knowledge as exists in every other field. The licensing requirements prevent others from diagnosing a case of athletes foot ensuring the patient must pay a high doctors fee. You local GP is not a surgeon and will never operate. Having them learn surgery is over training.

The solution is simply to open up the medical profession to different grades of practitioner and allow anyone that wishes to train. Doctors fees will fall as a result, but this will in turn discourage new entrants. By its nature it should be a low paid profession. For every doctor that sees it as a mechanism to self enrichment, there will be others that see it as service, who wish to do it simply to help people.

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The US medical system is a form of rent seeking. You are not permitted to practice medicine unless licensed and the number of people trained and thus licensed is restricted to ensure high profit margins for the doctors. They say they must earn a lot to pay for the training, yet willingness to pay is not the restriction, it is the number of trainee places. The vast bulk of a doctors work is not even highly skilled. They see patient after patient with the common complaints and diagnosis together with text book treatment could be offered by much less skilled workers. It is simply a body of knowledge as exists in every other field. The licensing requirements prevent others from diagnosing a case of athletes foot ensuring the patient must pay a high doctors fee. You local GP is not a surgeon and will never operate. Having them learn surgery is over training.

The solution is simply to open up the medical profession to different grades of practitioner and allow anyone that wishes to train. Doctors fees will fall as a result, but this will in turn discourage new entrants. By its nature it should be a low paid profession. For every doctor that sees it as a mechanism to self enrichment, there will be others that see it as service, who wish to do it simply to help people.

The fact is that the US medical Insurance system is ripping off the entire American populace. The fundamental design of the system is rubbish but the US people have gotten used to it and even accept it. They need to use the NHS model, end off!

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The US medical system is a form of rent seeking. You are not permitted to practice medicine unless licensed and the number of people trained and thus licensed is restricted to ensure high profit margins for the doctors. They say they must earn a lot to pay for the training, yet willingness to pay is not the restriction, it is the number of trainee places. The vast bulk of a doctors work is not even highly skilled. They see patient after patient with the common complaints and diagnosis together with text book treatment could be offered by much less skilled workers. It is simply a body of knowledge as exists in every other field. The licensing requirements prevent others from diagnosing a case of athletes foot ensuring the patient must pay a high doctors fee. You local GP is not a surgeon and will never operate. Having them learn surgery is over training.

The solution is simply to open up the medical profession to different grades of practitioner and allow anyone that wishes to train. Doctors fees will fall as a result, but this will in turn discourage new entrants. By its nature it should be a low paid profession. For every doctor that sees it as a mechanism to self enrichment, there will be others that see it as service, who wish to do it simply to help people.

The fly in your cheap medical care ointment is medico-legal responsibility.

In the UK, there have been great attempts to get non-medics to do the work of doctors, from nurse practitioners, extended scope physios, medical care practitioners, surgical care practitioners, doctors' assistants, nurse consultants, extended scope pharmacists and many others. Even within medicine, there is a move to shift specialist work from medical consultants to GPs "with a special interest" (GPwSI)

None of these groups (apart from GPwSIs) are willing to take legal responsibility for their mistakes and hide behind protocols. Under your solution, they will be forced to take responsibility for their mistakes, and the true clinical risk associated with their clinical decision-making will be revealed.

As a GP, I would be more than happy to have the sort of competition you describe, so long as clinical practitioners are made responsible for the consequences of their actions, whether they're doctors, nurses or YTS trainees.

Last week I got a call from a mental health practitioner about a couple of patients - this practitioner was not a CPN, psychologist or psychiatrist. She was a 'graduate mental health professional'. She wanted to inform me that the patients had expressed having suicidal thoughts. The sole purpose of her call was to cover her ass in case they killed themselves. In fact, the referral by the GP to the community mental health team was made because the patients were depressed and experiencing suicidal ideation, with a view for CBT, alternative drug therapy +/- psychiatric assessment. The patient consultation with this practitioner was useless. And costly. And time-delaying. It is a false economy allowing patients to be seen by people who are not willing to take responsibility for definitive treatment plans.

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Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable
The US medical system is a form of rent seeking. You are not permitted to practice medicine unless licensed and the number of people trained and thus licensed is restricted to ensure high profit margins for the doctors. They say they must earn a lot to pay for the training, yet willingness to pay is not the restriction, it is the number of trainee places. The vast bulk of a doctors work is not even highly skilled. They see patient after patient with the common complaints and diagnosis together with text book treatment could be offered by much less skilled workers. It is simply a body of knowledge as exists in every other field. The licensing requirements prevent others from diagnosing a case of athletes foot ensuring the patient must pay a high doctors fee. You local GP is not a surgeon and will never operate. Having them learn surgery is over training.

The solution is simply to open up the medical profession to different grades of practitioner and allow anyone that wishes to train. Doctors fees will fall as a result, but this will in turn discourage new entrants. By its nature it should be a low paid profession. For every doctor that sees it as a mechanism to self enrichment, there will be others that see it as service, who wish to do it simply to help people.

Get into training then, and let us know how you get on.

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None of these groups (apart from GPwSIs) are willing to take legal responsibility for their mistakes and hide behind protocols.

Right, that is why the renumeration is higher, one fatal mistake can be the end of one's career.

We can't ask say, nurses to do even more, and still be paid relatively at the same level, but shoulder disproprtionally greater responsibility. The specialised roles have worked fine for decades, why ask everyone to do a bit of everything now? The NHS is not a supermarket, where everyone can do bit of everything. Mistakes in Tescos generally do not kill people.

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The US medical system is a form of rent seeking. You are not permitted to practice medicine unless licensed and the number of people trained and thus licensed is restricted to ensure high profit margins for the doctors.

I think this is too narrow an interpretation ... it's high profit margins for corporations operating in the health/insurance/drugs fields. In turn they pay their key employees well, but IMO the licensing, insurance terms etc. is the result of a corporate-capture of the state, rather than a practitioner-capture. It's been a while since I saw the documentary but that's what I took from it.

Would be interesting to see what percentage of political donations comes from MDs, vs medical corporations.

Edited by huw

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I think this is too narrow an interpretation ... it's high profit margins for corporations operating in the health/insurance/drugs fields. In turn they pay their key employees well, but IMO the licensing, insurance terms etc. is the result of a corporate-capture of the state, rather than a practitioner-capture. It's been a while since I saw the documentary but that's what I took from it.

Would be interesting to see what percentage of political donations comes from MDs, vs medical corporations.

+1

I dont understand. Americans seem to go on about patriotism alot. To me patriotism is more than the land you live on, more than the traditions of your forefathers. Its about having solidarity with your fellow citizens. How they can allow this to happen to the fellow countrymen? Kinda shits on any sense of shared Americanness?

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Very depressing.

So is it possible to visit the US have an accident come home with 100k worth of medical debt? I cant see how handing the postoffice 80 quid holiday insurance will cover that no?

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Most of you are ignorant-sorry. My coverage is fine-I have no problem to date and the insurance company pay out in quicktime. BTW I am 58 and my insurance covers everything (with a tiny deductible) for around $3K per year. Compare that with NI contributions on my $60K salary.

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Guest An Bearin Bui
I think this is too narrow an interpretation ... it's high profit margins for corporations operating in the health/insurance/drugs fields. In turn they pay their key employees well, but IMO the licensing, insurance terms etc. is the result of a corporate-capture of the state, rather than a practitioner-capture. It's been a while since I saw the documentary but that's what I took from it.

Would be interesting to see what percentage of political donations comes from MDs, vs medical corporations.

I would agree - it's the insurance companies in particular that engage in rent-seeking because their activity is purely profit-driven. It's a manifestation of the mistaken thinking in the US that the profit-driven free market has the answer to everything. They fail to undertand that people don't 'shop' for medical care in the way that they shop for groceries or a car. First of all, as a patient you're not an informed consumer so you have no way of deciding what hospital/doctor/drug is suitable for you, secondly very few people can afford to pay for medical costs e.g. heart bypass out of pocket so insurance is an absolute necessity and thirdly not underwriting the risk of insurance companies means that you give them no option but to avoid risk (as they're not charities) so that means not covering anyone who might need expensive care.

It's a mess and I can't believe the USA is letting people die because of twisted ideas about economics. Economists were putting forward good models on why healthcare doesn't function like other markets decades ago. That's why the most successful healthcare systems have some form of underwriting of insurance risk e.g. Germany. The US now has the bizarre scenario where the counterparty risk for obscure credit transactions of a company like AIG is being paid for by the taxpayer but not the risk of healthcare insurance firms covering the seriously ill. Surreal...

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+1

I dont understand. Americans seem to go on about patriotism alot. To me patriotism is more than the land you live on, more than the traditions of your forefathers. Its about having solidarity with your fellow citizens. How they can allow this to happen to the fellow countrymen? Kinda shits on any sense of shared Americanness?

America is not a melting pot. It is a tossed salad. The ingredients may all be in the same bowl but they remain separate entities. Look at the various social, state, cultural and racial divides that exist, all side-by-side but with little integration. You really can live one of several different lives, ala Sex&TheCity, Desperate Housewives, P-Diddy, Latino etc etc. They love their country and God, but would happily ignore their fellow citizens. The gap in quality of life between the poor and middle class is astounding.

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Guest An Bearin Bui
Most of you are ignorant-sorry. My coverage is fine-I have no problem to date and the insurance company pay out in quicktime. BTW I am 58 and my insurance covers everything (with a tiny deductible) for around $3K per year. Compare that with NI contributions on my $60K salary.

Right, so why do 47 million Americans not have insurance? Why are so many hospitals going bankrupt in the US due to the provision of emergency medical care to the uninsured? Why are medical bills one of the leading causes of bankruptcy in the US?

Seems you'd benefit from thinking beyond just your own situation to look at the wider society.

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The US medical system is a form of rent seeking. You are not permitted to practice medicine unless licensed and the number of people trained and thus licensed is restricted to ensure high profit margins for the doctors. They say they must earn a lot to pay for the training, yet willingness to pay is not the restriction, it is the number of trainee places.

True.

The vast bulk of a doctors work is not even highly skilled. They see patient after patient with the common complaints and diagnosis together with text book treatment could be offered by much less skilled workers.

True in some cases.

It is simply a body of knowledge as exists in every other field. The licensing requirements prevent others from diagnosing a case of athletes foot ensuring the patient must pay a high doctors fee. You local GP is not a surgeon and will never operate.

False. They can do small ops.

Having them learn surgery is over training.

They don't learn surgery. To do that they would have to train to be surgeons post-qualification. Medical students study surgery, but they in no way learn to be surgeons. And that study is vital for GPs to diagnose, refer, communicate and cooperate effectively with surgeons.

The solution is simply to open up the medical profession to different grades of practitioner and allow anyone that wishes to train.

So long as there is some regulation or accreditation of examination and practise.

Doctors fees will fall as a result, but this will in turn discourage new entrants. By its nature it should be a low paid profession.

It never has been. It's quite hard to do well, and cockups are valued highly negatively by customers so I don't think a good one, or one accredited to high standards, will ever be cheap. Of course, you could have a more multitiered system where less trained, less competitively selected people offer lower risk basic care (which is happening in any case) but you would still need a few people who knew quite a lot and you would have probably have to put up with a slightly increased disaster rate.

For every doctor that sees it as a mechanism to self enrichment, there will be others that see it as service, who wish to do it simply to help people.

No one does it simply to help people. If these altruists are just as capable as anyone else then they should already be doing medicine. And giving away at least half their income so they can help even more people.

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A great documentary.

Made me immensely proud of our National Health Service.

But how amazing is France? massive amount of assistance for it's citizens during issues with health or general life; 3 months off work after the guy had got over cancer with the government paying 65% of his salary and his company paying 35% (my Dad was dumped onto stat. sick pay after 2 weeks into a lenghty spell on life support last year), home helps for new mothers, time off to move home, just a real sense of the citizens being in control. The country being truly run for the benefit of everybody.

And that's where it got depressing for me because, for how proud I am of the NHS, I'm now equally depressed at how relatively badly you will be treated here if you lose your job and need to rely on the state to help you through that tough time when compared to France, and how we are ensuring all students are leaving college as debt slaves.

The American woman in the restaurant said it best; The French have it so good because the government are scared of the citizens, not the other way around. Which is exactly how it is here and in the US.

What's that Jefferson quote?

"When the government fears the people there is liberty;

when the people fear the government there is tyranny."

I'm coming over all socialist.

Edited by pete.hpc

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A great documentary.

Made me immensely proud of our National Health Service.

But how amazing is France? massive amount of assistance for it's citizens during issues with health or general life; 3 months off work after the guy had got over cancer with the government paying 65% of his salary and his company paying 35% (my Dad was dumped onto stat. sick pay after 2 weeks into a lenghty spell on life support last year), home helps for new mothers, time off to move home, just a real sense of the citizens being in control. The country being truly run for the benefit of everybody.

And that's where it got depressing for me because, for how proud I am of the NHS, I'm now equally depressed at how relatively badly you will be treated here if you lose your job and need to rely on the state to help you through that tough time when compared to France, and how we are ensuring all students are leaving college as debt slaves.

The American woman in the restaurant said it best; The French have it so good because the government are scared of the citizens, not the other way around. Which is exactly how it is here and in the US.

What's that Jefferson quote?

"When the government fears the people there is liberty;

when the people fear the government there is tyranny."

I'm coming over all socialist.

I think you are a very confused boy.

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Drop the arrogance and explain yourself

As you like Jefferson quotes: -

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

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