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International Aid

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i.e it's protected from cuts.

I agree with health, apart from the obvious culls required in Management BUT surely, it's time to tend to our own country first?

Is it time we slashed international aid?

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Well that would be right given that as far as I can see, most of Englanders are foreigners to the London City State therefore the National Health Service is in effect international aid to the occupied provinces.

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Tory Position

They are talking about "root-and branch" reform including reducing the number of countries receiving aid (eg China off the list, once current commitments are fulfilled).

And to put it in context...

We could cut our aid budget savagely and make next-to-no contribution to closing Gordon Brown's budget deficit. The development budget is tiny compared to the NHS, education and welfare budgets. Aid may be no substitute for free trade but it can make an important contribution to tackling hunger, disease and preventing the failed states of tomorrow that produce terrorism and refugee problems.

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Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable
i.e it's protected from cuts.

I agree with health, apart from the obvious culls required in Management BUT surely, it's time to tend to our own country first?

Is it time we slashed international aid?

If I can't get a pawpaw from Lidl in any season from next year onwards, it'll be because of people like you.

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Is it time we slashed international aid?

To nothing. If people want to give to charity they can and do. However money should never be taken from the public on the pretext to pay for services and then give that money away to charity. Its criminal.

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If I can't get a pawpaw from Lidl in any season from next year onwards, it'll be because of people like you.

what's a pawpaw?

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i.e it's protected from cuts.

I agree with health, apart from the obvious culls required in Management BUT surely, it's time to tend to our own country first?

Is it time we slashed international aid?

won't it just be frozen in nominal terms - so in real terms will fall a fair bit over coming years?

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what's a pawpaw?

Paw Paw is a village in the U.S. state of Michigan. As of the 2000 census, the village population was 3,363. It is the county seat of Van Buren County.

Or it could be a fruit.

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Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable
what's a pawpaw?

A bear necessity.

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Paw Paw is a village in the U.S. state of Michigan. As of the 2000 census, the village population was 3,363. It is the county seat of Van Buren County.

Or it could be a fruit.

I say F*ck the poor people. They are nt going to pay us back, they need to learn the hard way. No, I am not joking.

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I just wonder how a country with £700 billion pound debt can talk about helping poor countries. I mean, how high does that figure have to be before we're classed as "poor"?

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Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable
I just wonder how a country with £700 billion pound debt can talk about helping poor countries. I mean, how high does that figure have to be before we're classed as "poor"?

You might have to consider the slight annoyance of having to get back in the fields, growing your own food and running a donkey if the aid money doesn't flow.

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The idea of ringfencing anything right now is preposterous.

Britain is at the begining of a drawn out depression that in my opinion will last until 2025-2030. A Japan style 'lost decade' but for a bit longer.

The only way out of this is to reduce overheads (costs) and return money back to the private sector (e.g. lowering income tax and possibly corporation tax).

The fact that UK governments still want to steal money from my pocket and give it to other countries is flawed on two counts: First, that they do not grasp the enormity of what Britain faces, and the previously unthinkable solutions that we will have to administer in order to get ourselves out of this hole. Secondly that by 'giving' money to failed states will somehow reduce the number of refugees and terrorists is also not correct. To give money to a failed state is by definition giving money to corruption, and stating that he who holds the power (ie the gun/govt office) gets the prize. To give money to an NGO to spend there is quite simply money down the drain - I have worked alongside many NGO's and I view 99.5% of them to be ineffective leaches run by people who I wouldn't hire as a clerk. To suggest that we must give our money to other countries in order to avoid terrorist attacks, or 'asylum seekers' turning up on our shores is bulls**t. We have been giving money away for decades, and it hasn't stopped either of these things from happening.

I believe that it once again shows our politcal elite's complete inexperience in running a dynamic project, or a business of any complexity, successfully, and to budget. If they had this experience they would know that you can throw as much money at something as you like (e.g. the NHS), but the product will only be as good as the 'systems' in place, the work culture, and the ability of the people hired, esp in the key positions.

I read a couple of weeks ago that next year will be the first year where income tax will be less than welfare payouts. The next government needs to cut and trim waste in as many areas as possible, and then use that money to give people a larger proportion of their own earned income. People can then pay off their debts quicker, can save quicker, and then can use their savings, to either spend in the consumer economy, or take a financial risk and invest in a business. That is what we need to get out of the mess we are in right now.

The state of the nations finances is dire, we stand a 1 in 3 chance of having our debt downgraded, and the opposition is talking of 'ringfencing' aid and health. What makes them so special? why not ringfence education, defence, the police force etc etc,.... what about dole, or the varous quangos???

All options must be open, the politicians need to understand the seriousness of our finanical situation, and they need the guts to make the tough decisions; tough decisions that leaders are expected to take in times of crisis.

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The state of the nations finances is dire, we stand a 1 in 3 chance of having our debt downgraded, and the opposition is talking of 'ringfencing' aid and health. What makes them so special? why not ringfence education, defence, the police force etc etc,.... what about dole, or the varous quangos???

it's just politiking - honestly they'll happily reduce it thru inflation and devaluation of the £.

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To nothing. If people want to give to charity they can and do. However money should never be taken from the public on the pretext to pay for services and then give that money away to charity. Its criminal.

Especially if you consider a lot of that aid is just bribes, have I become too cynical or are we all genuinely waking up to the corruption in government that's always been there?

Sure I have no evidence to support my theory, but take China for example they are much richer than us and sure as hell don't need our 'aid'. Even private charity companies only need to donate something like 50% of all profit to their causes after they cream off most of their revenue in fake costs in the first place..

I'ts...all...a...scam

I'm pretty sure when China made a big deal about giving aid to Sichuan province after the earthquake it was more of a public advert for 'helping the people' than real aid, IE the figures it was spouting and the actual aid reaching the ground were quite different. And in usual Chinese style I'm guessing in the beginning the aid was top notch then once the publicity died away and the marketing effect was no longer needed, ie it was no longer on the top of everyones mind in China the aid slowly fell away.

I've heard a rumour to this effect though I did guess this was the case at least somewhat beforehand.

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Sure I have no evidence to support my theory, but take China for example they are much richer than us and sure as hell don't need our 'aid'. Even private charity companies only need to donate something like 50% of all profit to their causes after they cream off most of their revenue in fake costs in the first place..

As I noted up-thread, the Tories have specifically said that China is coming off the list.

They also claim to be addressing the problems of "poor people in rich countries giving to rich people in poor countries", with several policies laid out to do so. Whether those policies will be effective is another matter -- but given that this thread is about what Cameron is saying, surely it would be more interesting to debate the Tories' recent statements, than to blindly go over the old chestnuts again.

The 0.7% target appears to be something that the UK has already signed up to (for whatever that's worth).

Edited by huw

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As I noted up-thread, the Tories have specifically said that China is coming off the list.

They also claim to be addressing the problems of "poor people in rich countries giving to rich people in poor countries", with several policies laid out to do so. Whether those policies will be effective is another matter -- but given that this thread is about what Cameron is saying, surely it would be more interesting to debate the Tories' recent statements, than to blindly go over the old chestnuts again.

The 0.7% target appears to be something that the UK has already signed up to (for whatever that's worth).

Let's hope they manage to do better than they did with the Pergau Dam corruption scandal.

As I recall, aid of questionable value was given conditional on Malaysia buying arms from manufacturers who were closely linked to the Tory Party - Douglas Hurd in particular come out of it smelling of sh1t.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/polit...ll-1426425.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/major-ap...ct-1400809.html

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Most spend these days is just slush funding, and aid is no exception.

They get the cameras down to film £100 worth of rice coming off the back of a lorry, where total cost of such a truckload is £1 Million.

Same as the Millenium Dome. It just doesn't cost £1 billion to build a tent. That's why the £300 million that King Tony added to the project, can't be accounted for. It's was used to grease palms or keep some other distant project from going over budget.

Same as the Olympics. It didn't cost the Ancient Greeks the equivalent of £12 billion, and it shouldn't cost us that either.

The rest going into scratching backs or diveted into some other area of running the country that needs to be kept hush-hush.

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50 years and the 3rd world is still a mess after all the aid they have been given......stop ll foreign a=id now unless it is a disaster earthquake etc...lets get the NHS up to scratch and at least a few dentists we can go to befor we waste in on foreigners

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50 years and the 3rd world is still a mess after all the aid they have been given......stop ll foreign a=id now unless it is a disaster earthquake etc...lets get the NHS up to scratch and at least a few dentists we can go to befor we waste in on foreigners

The same argument says that foreigners should stop buying our bonds ;)

By all means leave the third world alone, that also means stopping bombing them, stealing their stuff, rigging their politics and markets, etc.

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Britain is still a **LOT** richer than many, many other countries, even after the financial problems we're currently facing.

Have you people ever actually been to a poor country and seen the way most people live? From where I'm sitting and from the little I've seen, it doesn't look particularly nice.

Sure, some of the money will "vanish", but that's no different to projects in the UK, so if my tax money can help someone in *real* poverty get a meal/water/whatever, I'd rather it went there than to pay for cigarettes and alcohol for someone on benefits in England (not saying that everyone on benefits is a drunk smoker, but some are).

Have some heart, people.

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Britain is still a **LOT** richer than many, many other countries, even after the financial problems we're currently facing.

Have you people ever actually been to a poor country and seen the way most people live? From where I'm sitting and from the little I've seen, it doesn't look particularly nice.

Sure, some of the money will "vanish", but that's no different to projects in the UK, so if my tax money can help someone in *real* poverty get a meal/water/whatever, I'd rather it went there than to pay for cigarettes and alcohol for someone on benefits in England (not saying that everyone on benefits is a drunk smoker, but some are).

Have some heart, people.

a busted economy is in no position, morally to hand more debt to its own people to the benefit of anyone else.

didnt Brown give CHina £100K just before the Olympics....CHina a country with surplus cash , and UK deficit increasing year on year?

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Britain is still a **LOT** richer than many, many other countries, even after the financial problems we're currently facing.

Have you people ever actually been to a poor country and seen the way most people live? From where I'm sitting and from the little I've seen, it doesn't look particularly nice.

Sure, some of the money will "vanish", but that's no different to projects in the UK, so if my tax money can help someone in *real* poverty get a meal/water/whatever, I'd rather it went there than to pay for cigarettes and alcohol for someone on benefits in England (not saying that everyone on benefits is a drunk smoker, but some are).

Have some heart, people.

Yes. I have and I do. I currently work in South Sudan clearing landmines. The country is a mess, the govt types are multi-millionaires, and young kids in rags go through the town rubbish heap to scavenge what the other locals throw away.

If you feel that way, then fine, donate to charity. What concerns me is my tax money going into these places, where most, not some of it does vanish. I agree with you about benefits in England also, and do not want my hard earned money being given away to these guys either. I would rather support decent charities that are run efficiently, out of my own choice, not be forced by threat of prison, to give taxes to the govt to pay for this.

I do have a heart. I want these people to learn to stand on their own two feet. I have witnessed with my own two eyes how foreign aid almost immediately creates a dependancy culture, people choose not to work, or be productive, only to hussle and steal. The idea of giving people my money, the product of hours (days) of my life, the only life I will ever have, - yet to ask nothing in return from them - not even to request that they work for their money, and learn to produce is something I no longer accept. I have also decided to no longer accept accusations of not having a heart, or be made to feel guilty that I want to choose who I support with the product of my labour and my life. To choose based on respecting the struggle of an individual, or a country, and not based on a corrupted view of morality and my obligations to complete strangers.

Discuss! <_<

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Especially if you consider a lot of that aid is just bribes, have I become too cynical or are we all genuinely waking up to the corruption in government that's always been there?

Sure I have no evidence to support my theory, but take China for example they are much richer than us and sure as hell don't need our 'aid'. Even private charity companies only need to donate something like 50% of all profit to their causes after they cream off most of their revenue in fake costs in the first place..

I'ts...all...a...scam

I'm pretty sure when China made a big deal about giving aid to Sichuan province after the earthquake it was more of a public advert for 'helping the people' than real aid, IE the figures it was spouting and the actual aid reaching the ground were quite different. And in usual Chinese style I'm guessing in the beginning the aid was top notch then once the publicity died away and the marketing effect was no longer needed, ie it was no longer on the top of everyones mind in China the aid slowly fell away.

I've heard a rumour to this effect though I did guess this was the case at least somewhat beforehand.

Everything is exactly as it always has been, the difference is the magic box you are sat in front of.

Whether knowledge means change we will see. I am hoping so, personally.

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