Catch22 Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I seems I'm to late, but thanks for the PM edit: I don't have this or any thread on email alert, as I would never get any work done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest X-QUORK Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So often the case, that fervent aetheists transmogrify into Agnosticism later in life............... Hedging their bets. It doesn't imply some near-death wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salamander Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I seems I'm to late, but thanks for the PMedit: I don't have this or any thread on email alert, as I would never get any work done No worries. The mods beat you to it. Thanks for trying though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman holiday Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Hedging their bets. It doesn't imply some near-death wisdom. Pascal's wager might be appropriate given the economic nature of this forum. Opps, edited for name of wise one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prescience Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Hedging their bets. It doesn't imply some near-death wisdom. So at a stroke, you're smarter than Voltaire? In order to "Hedge any bet or position" one actually has to do something........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skinty Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So I guess you are working in the Expert Systems, Neural Networks and AI areas Skinty? Biologically inspired self organising neural networks and other models that produce emergent phenomena. However logic must still be used: as it is in Boolean Algebra, e.g. Only because they are implemented on a computer that uses logic. I could theoretically piece them together using real neural cells that do the same thing. I understand them and describe them to others using analogies of other physical systems. I do have to admit to being confused as to why people think that if you see logic as nothing more than a concept and a tool that allows one to reason about the world that this should lead to mysticism, agnosticism, and fascism. I think I have missed some underlying assumption somewhere in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catch22 Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 No worries. The mods beat you to it. Thanks for trying though. I cannot post a link to the photo because my photobucket web link has been blocked. It was fine when I posted charts and stuff. Says all you need to know about this managed society we live in. Our government undertakes the industrial slaughter of innocents, for the direct benefit of the bankers, arms manufactures, and oil related industries. Yet a link to a photo of those deeds is deemed offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoth Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I cannot post a link to the photo because my photobucket web link has been blocked. It was fine when I posted charts and stuff.Says all you need to know about this managed society we live in. Our government undertakes the industrial slaughter of innocents, for the direct benefit of the bankers, arms manufactures, and oil related industries. Yet a link to a photo of those deeds is deemed offensive. The deeds are offensive enough without the need for photographic justification. I'm sure that those that find that image offensive would find images of 7 July victims equally offensive. Regards, Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest X-QUORK Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So at a stroke, you're smarter than Voltaire?In order to "Hedge any bet or position" one actually has to do something........................ Sigh. No, I don't think I'm smarter than Voltaire, nor Rowan Williams for that matter. Does it follow that my atheist beliefs are incorrect? What about all the seriously bright atheists? I think this might be an intellectual cul-de-sac you've led us down. As for your hedging pedantry, Voltaire did do something, he changed his position from atheist to agnostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichB Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 In the matter of honour killings I'm struggling to remember the last Christian one that made the news. Let me help you: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/4606957.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northam...ire/6424747.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1409164.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2247153.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/503707.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7128924.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4884826.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/4375915.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/t...dio/4110455.stm Still, its all those evil muslims right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman holiday Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 For those interested, this BBC documentary is worth a viewing:http://www.abdn.ac.uk/modern/node/164 Quality viewing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salamander Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Let me help you:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/4606957.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northam...ire/6424747.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1409164.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2247153.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/503707.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7128924.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4884826.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/4375915.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/t...dio/4110455.stm Still, its all those evil muslims right? Virtually all of your stories relate to individuals acting alone, or with the assistance of individuals they have paid. "Honour killings" frequently involve family or community members condoning or assisting in the murder(s). There is a big difference IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prescience Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Let me help you:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/4606957.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northam...ire/6424747.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1409164.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2247153.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/503707.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7128924.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4884826.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/4375915.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/t...dio/4110455.stm Still, its all those evil muslims right? The Thread Title mentions religion: where are the religious connotations in the webrefs you cite? Couldn't find one! And furthermore, where are the "Honour Killing" relationships? Simply, there aren't any. All societies suffer a certain incidence of violence and murder. And since Torquemada et al, I know of no incidence of religiously motivated killings or punishments amongst Christian states in the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwick-Watcher Posted July 24, 2009 Author Share Posted July 24, 2009 Let me help you:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/4606957.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northam...ire/6424747.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1409164.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2247153.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/503707.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7128924.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4884826.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/4375915.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/t...dio/4110455.stm Still, its all those evil muslims right? Remind me to spend a couple of hours trawling the web to find examples of honour killings amongst the muslim world. These all seem to be husbands/partners of people, not their brothers, nephews, cousins etc. Nowhere in these articles does the religion of the killer seem to have been an issue. Here's a few to get started http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6743357.stm http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/2250-...rned-Alive.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights http://www.stophonourkillings.com/ Additionally these killers in your examples all seem to have worked alone in a fit of rage, rather than attacking in a cowardly group on a pre-meditated basis. Still keep apologising for them if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichB Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So why do you feel there is so much difference between someone acting alone to exact revenge for a slight and the more tightly knit societies having their kinsmen taking the action? I am genuinely concerned that you see one as fine, and the other as a religious issue. The others do not mention christianity as a cause as the religion of white british males tends to be assumed. Or perhaps you don't believe that either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichB Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Because from what you post, it is abundantly clear you haven't got a degree (or two) which actually requires you to understand the question and find information to prove or disprove a question or statement put to you. Yeah, yeah, keep on with the adhominems - it'll make people respect you no end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prescience Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So why do you feel there is so much difference between someone acting alone to exact revenge for a slight and the more tightly knit societies having their kinsmen taking the action? Because the customs and social and religious mores of nation states dating back three or four hundred years are not apposite to be imported to countries which gave up burning people at the stake and etc back in the 16th Cent. I am genuinely concerned that you see one as fine, and the other as a religious issue. The others do not mention christianity as a cause as the religion of white british males tends to be assumed. Or perhaps you don't believe that either? Assuming most white men in Britain - a Godless morally bankrupt society - are "Christian" is about as logical as assuming everyone who follows Islam is a terrorist. You have proven zero relationship or connection between the cases you site: and British religion. I note also by the way that you do not cite any of the multitude of murder cases happening today amongst for example, Afro-Carribean communities in major cities such as London. No I wonder why this can be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salamander Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So why do you feel there is so much difference between someone acting alone to exact revenge for a slight and the more tightly knit societies having their kinsmen taking the action?I am genuinely concerned that you see one as fine, and the other as a religious issue. The others do not mention christianity as a cause as the religion of white british males tends to be assumed. Or perhaps you don't believe that either? I don't see one as fine. I said they were different. However, I do feel that group vengeance can never be justifiable and is more dangerous. When an individual wants to harm someone who they believe has harmed them that's one thing. Such individuals will always exist but In a healthy community, those who have not been harmed may be able to persuade the individual concerned (if informed) that disproportionate action should not be followed, or at least not become directly involved. When the members of that same community encourage or participate in the disproportionate response to something that does not even involve them that is a much more dangerous scenario. Your examples were primarily in the former category and so contributed nothing to the point I think you were trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichB Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I note also by the way that you do not cite any of the multitude of murder cases happening today amongst for example, Afro-Carribean communities in major cities such as London.No I wonder why this can be? Simple media bias. These were the main ones that came up from the search box on news.bbc... Assuming most white men in Britain - a Godless morally bankrupt society - are "Christian" is about as logical as assuming everyone who follows Islam is a terrorist. I would suggest that the vast majority of those on their documentation will state CofE or Catholic. I think it a much better assumption that the one you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichB Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Because the customs and social and religious mores of nation states dating back three or four hundred years are not apposite to be imported to countries which gave up burning people at the stake and etc back in the 16th Cent. So, its ok for people to act alone, but not in concert? Its ok for people to act when they are angry, but not when someone else is angry? Its ok to do something appalling in cruelty and effect for a vague feeling of personal slight, but not to do it for a well thought out and lucid set of reasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Claudius Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 fwiw I'm pretty sure a few people got their kneecaps blown off for seeing catholic / protestant girls during the troubles. A few abortion doctors in America could be forgiven for harbouring fearful thoughts towards some of their christian country men also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichB Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I don't see one as fine. I said they were different. However, I do feel that group vengeance can never be justifiable and is more dangerous.When an individual wants to harm someone who they believe has harmed them that's one thing. Such individuals will always exist but In a healthy community, those who have not been harmed may be able to persuade the individual concerned (if informed) that disproportionate action should not be followed, or at least not become directly involved. When the members of that same community encourage or participate in the disproportionate response to something that does not even involve them that is a much more dangerous scenario. Your examples were primarily in the former category and so contributed nothing to the point I think you were trying to make. So if any one of those had got his heavy mate to help out, that would be bad? If they paid someone to deal with it would that be a problem? How about if it wasn't them being slighted - but say their neighbours kids? That ok then for a mob to kill someone? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/6569005.stm I am not saying that honour killing is ok - I am saying it is only really any different in the terminology used, and that the white british folk are plenty as bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichB Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 fwiw I'm pretty sure a few people got their kneecaps blown off for seeing catholic / protestant girls during the troubles.A few abortion doctors in America could be forgiven for harbouring fearful thoughts towards some of their christian country men also. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8087376.stm Hundreds of mourners have attended the funeral of US abortion doctor George Tiller, who was shot dead at a church in Wichita, Kansas, last Sunday.Anti-abortionists had vilified Dr Tiller for being one of the few US doctors to perform late-term abortions. His funeral was conducted in a different church to that in which he was killed by a single gunshot. A man aged 51, who is believed to be an anti-abortionist, has been arrested and charged with the murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salamander Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So if any one of those had got his heavy mate to help out, that would be bad? If they paid someone to deal with it would that be a problem?How about if it wasn't them being slighted - but say their neighbours kids? That ok then for a mob to kill someone? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/6569005.stm I am not saying that honour killing is ok - I am saying it is only really any different in the terminology used, and that the white british folk are plenty as bad. They're all "worse" than individual revenge as they are involving people in a crime in which they have no direct interest. However, the first two examples involve people who like violence anyway (heavy and hitman) so are not particularly relevant. The third example, yes, that is just as bad. If you read my posts I have not made any direct reference to Islam. Any ideology/groupthink that encourages disproprortionate responses and exhorts others to take part in "mob revenge" is not healthy for any community. Edit: i.e. I agree with your last point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.C. Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Biologically inspired self organising neural networks and other models that produce emergent phenomena.Only because they are implemented on a computer that uses logic. I could theoretically piece them together using real neural cells that do the same thing. I understand them and describe them to others using analogies of other physical systems. I do have to admit to being confused as to why people think that if you see logic as nothing more than a concept and a tool that allows one to reason about the world that this should lead to mysticism, agnosticism, and fascism. I think I have missed some underlying assumption somewhere in this thread. Interesting, I was having a discussion about this last month, we never resolved it but drained a rather nice glenmorangie trying. Do you think AI will ever work in a Turing test sort of way given that no matter how complex or abstract the simulated mind it will always have to be reduced to logic at some point if we wish to run the simulation on a computer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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