Guest Skinty Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Ah, Skinty!You are hereby falling into the intellectual trap of viewing a Deity as identical to human beings. Assuming for the sake of the hypothesis that there is a Deity: and that Deity is omnipotent, then they couldn't be the same as humans could they. Thus gender cannot figure in the logic. It is the arrogance of humankind that they must always drag everything down to their own inconsequential level. In order that humans can identify and not feel too inferior. I'm not falling into the trap, I'm the one laying the trap for them. I don't believe in a God at all and I completely agree with what you are saying. If such a 'God' did exist then we'd be unable to comprehend it effectively in that way, nor do I see why we would have to worship it either! It's just a little argument I use to wind certain people up My own position is that a thing is only a thing if it has limits, otherwise it is 'no-thing', or nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingsgate Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 That train of thought is a uniquely religious one.If it wasn't for the fear of a big bad sky daddy sending you to eternal damnation for all time then you would be unable to resist the temptation to run around committing unspeakable atrocities against your fellow man. You may want to read up on just what your fellow christians are doing in the name of Jesus over in the Congo. Personally I do not find torturing and murdering your own children for witchcraft a very 'moral' thing to do... Primitive people, primitive religious beliefs. They may may profess to be "christians" but all this witchcraft stuff stems from their older more innate beliefs. Zombies, voodoo, witches, magic spells on people, etc. I am not a Christian though. Our "civilised" version of it may not be as bad as what's going on in the Congo, but you don't have to look too far to see savagery closer to home - like protestant mobs throwing stones and petrol bombs at mothers and their little kids on their way to school, just because they were catholics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankster Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 As a hardline atheist, I'm against all religions because they promote lies as truth. The Christmas story - the greatest lie ever told! Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or whatever would all fall foul of advertising standards by a long way if they were applied to religions. But I don't think religions are necessarily evil, even if they are lies, if they are put to good use and benefit people. The original popularity of Christianity and Islam had a lot to do with them being more humane and tolerant that the pagan religions they replaced, but times have moved on since those days and we all know a lot more about how the universe and how it actually works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest X-QUORK Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I can honestly say, if it wasn't for my beliefs, I would in fact be pursuing quite a selfish life to the detriment of pretty much everyone else (including myself, as I see it). Thank you for confirming my point about religion being a social control mechanism for those lacking an internal moral compass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadoube Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 But "no-thing" does indeed exist. Least that's what the Japanese would say.That's the problem if you ask me, we in the west limit ourselves with binary thinking. A mathematician would also say nothing exists. The problem is that we in the UK limit ourselves in our thinking (binary or otherwise) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadoube Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Vile people. A comment about those posting in this thread? A trifle harsh if so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest X-QUORK Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Ah, Skinty!You are hereby falling into the intellectual trap of viewing a Deity as identical to human beings. Assuming for the sake of the hypothesis that there is a Deity: and that Deity is omnipotent, then they couldn't be the same as humans could they. Thus gender cannot figure in the logic. It is the arrogance of humankind that they must always drag everything down to their own inconsequential level. In order that humans can identify and not feel too inferior. No, I think Skinty was just taking what is written in the Bible and using it as tool to highlight idiocy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman holiday Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I'm not falling into the trap, I'm the one laying the trap for them. I don't believe in a God at all and I completely agree with what you are saying. If such a 'God' did exist then we'd be unable to comprehend it effectively in that way, nor do I see why we would have to worship it either! It's just a little argument I use to wind certain people up My own position is that a thing is only a thing if it has limits, otherwise it is 'no-thing', or nothing. So does the thing called logic have limits... or is it nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prescience Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 A mathematician would also say nothing exists. You are obviously unfamiliar with Anthropic Theory: which is exercising the minds of leading mathematicians all overthe World, presently....................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skinty Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So does the thing called logic have limits... or is it nothing? Logic is a human construct and by all means is limited. Try writing artificial intelligence that has to adapt to the real world using logic and you'll see what I mean! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prescience Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So you're a Chaos Theory Bunny then Skinty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catch22 Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Islamic Apologist. Wouldn't you be happier posting on Stormfront, the home of white pride world wide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwick-Watcher Posted July 24, 2009 Author Share Posted July 24, 2009 As a hardline atheist, I'm against all religions because they promote lies as truth. The Christmas story - the greatest lie ever told! Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or whatever would all fall foul of advertising standards by a long way if they were applied to religions. But I don't think religions are necessarily evil, even if they are lies, if they are put to good use and benefit people. The original popularity of Christianity and Islam had a lot to do with them being more humane and tolerant that the pagan religions they replaced, but times have moved on since those days and we all know a lot more about how the universe and how it actually works. Er Pagans weren't necessarily Viking pillagers raping their way across Britain. They worshipped trees and water - a bit like modern day environmentalists. To accept the mysterious power of nature is true belief. Christmas - I especially love the fact that we teach children not to lie, but then we lie about Santa coming down the chimney and delivering presents. When they find out its a lie what does that teach them about truth and lies? Also will he need a CRB check before continuing his deviant practice of sneaking into kids' bedrooms while they're asleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Deflation Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Religions don't start wars or oppress women, people do. Religions don't start up by themselves. They are created by people in order justify oppressing women and starting wars. I have no need for religion in my life, but if other people want to peacefully believe in a god that's fine. Peacefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skinty Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So you're a Chaos Theory Bunny then Skinty? Something along those lines. Dynamical systems, self organisation, free-energy etc It all works very well for me at the moment I find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prescience Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 A nice little example of the compassion, caring and love exercised by Islam. http://www.civilliberty.org.uk/newsdetail.php?newsid=640 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman holiday Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Logic is a human construct and by all means is limited. Try writing artificial intelligence that has to adapt to the real world using logic and you'll see what I mean! If it's just a human construct doesn't that mean it can't itself provide definitive truths that would be objectively valid? And then how do we distinguish between truth and error, nonsense and non-nonsense? And then wouldn't everyone's point if view be as valid as everyone elses [including the dogmatist's] ....without much point of rational criticism? And with no common humanity what would stop force trumping reason and civilization collapsing into barbarity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skinty Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 If it's just a human construct doesn't that mean it can't itself construct definitive truths that would be objectively valid? It's a very effective concept that we can use to reason about the world. In the same way that numbers do not physically exist but we can use the concept of numbers for counting. Can anything be absolutely true or false for example? Pure logic is limited in that the world is uncertain and we do not have full knowledge of its state. This why techniques such as fuzzy logic or probability theory have come about so that we can reason more successfully in uncertain environments. I'm not denying that logic is an extremely useful tool that we should apply to our lives, but assuming that it's some underlying law of reality is similar to assuming that good and evil would exist without the human race around to judge things as being so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman holiday Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 It's a very effective concept that we can use to reason about the world. In the same way that numbers do not physically exist but we can use the concept of numbers for counting.Can anything be absolutely true or false for example? Pure logic is limited in that the world is uncertain and we do not have full knowledge of its state. This why techniques such as fuzzy logic or probability theory have come about so that we can reason more successfully in uncertain environments. I'm not denying that logic is an extremely useful tool that we should apply to our lives, but assuming that it's some underlying law of reality is similar to assuming that good and evil would exist without the human race around to judge things as being so. Well, conundrums of these sorts have always lead the finest of philosophers and mathematicians [interesting the link between logic, maths and geometry] into the transcendent realms of metaphysics and mystic religions. The irony, from our perspective, is the most rational of thinkers sought a solid footing for reason. Without a footing, and considering logic just a secretion of the brain, how can we avoid subjectivism, relativism and irrationalism? Maybe the future is just fascism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest X-QUORK Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Could this then been seen as a dishonourable killing? This was the result of the actions of the Industrial Military Complex, masquerading as Christian Western Democracies. The powers that be need you to hate/fear Muslims, because quite frankly most oil is in Muslim states. That way it makes you living with your governments actions, more palatable. I cannot wait for the general election. Yes I know the Industrial Military Complex rigs the two party democracy game, but you know what they say "a change is as good as a rest" Catch 22 We are on the same side on this one, but I'd politely ask you to remove that picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spaniard Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Well, conundrums of these sorts have always lead the finest of philosophers and mathematicians [interesting the link between logic, maths and geometry] into the transcendent realms of metaphysics and mystic religions. The irony, from our perspective, is the most rational of thinkers sought a solid footing for reason. Without a footing, and considering logic just a secretion of the brain, how can we avoid subjectivism, relativism and irrationalism? Maybe the future is just fascism. For those interested, this BBC documentary is worth a viewing: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/modern/node/164 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoth Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Catch 22We are on the same side on this one, but I'd politely ask you to remove that picture. Seconded. Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salamander Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Catch 22We are on the same side on this one, but I'd politely ask you to remove that picture. +1. Provide a link if you want, but please with an appropriate warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumble Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 All religion does is create war! I hate people who knock on doors too who interrupt your day (especially days you have off work!) We do not need religion thrown at our faces thanks there are enough problems going on in the world!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prescience Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 It's a very effective concept that we can use to reason about the world. In the same way that numbers do not physically exist but we can use the concept of numbers for counting.Can anything be absolutely true or false for example? Pure logic is limited in that the world is uncertain and we do not have full knowledge of its state. This why techniques such as fuzzy logic or probability theory have come about so that we can reason more successfully in uncertain environments. I'm not denying that logic is an extremely useful tool that we should apply to our lives, but assuming that it's some underlying law of reality is similar to assuming that good and evil would exist without the human race around to judge things as being so. So I guess you are working in the Expert Systems, Neural Networks and AI areas Skinty? However logic must still be used: as it is in Boolean Algebra, e.g. I still much appreciate the words of Voltaire on his deathbed: as a life long aetheist, he was asked about what he thought of God, now he was near death. "Well, lets's say as God and I pass on opposite sides of the street, we raise our hats to each other!" So often the case, that fervent aetheists transmogrify into Agnosticism later in life............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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