Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Guest

1 In 8 City Centre Shops Empty.oop Norf 40%

Recommended Posts

It's hard to ascertain who's been the most greedy (and thus killing the bird laying the golden egg) - property owners demanding ever-increasing rental income, or Government with the business rates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12...-tax-hikes.html

'One in eight town centre shops is vacant, three times more than last autumn, a report reveals.

The British Retail Consortium found that the picture was even bleaker in some parts of the North, where up to 40 per cent of premises stand empty.

Traders have been hit by tax rises of up to £4,000 in the last year alone, according to the Federation of Small Businesses.

Figures from the Treasury reveal that business rates will generate £24billion for the Government over the following financial year.'

oh no it won't.retail space has to be the worst investment of the next ten years.70% of the economy was consumption

Scary figures :(

I agree with you secondary retail property is a lousy investment ;)

I wonder what all those high street shops are going to end up used for?

Converted into flats maybe?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scary figures :(

I agree with you secondary retail property is a lousy investment ;)

I wonder what all those high street shops are going to end up used for?

Converted into flats maybe?

Flats? what is a flat? Do you mean luxury apartments?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[...]

Flats? what is a flat? Do you mean luxury apartments?

Well it has to be used for something ;)

I was thinking more DSS/student style bedsits :unsure:

Thats the way a lot of pubs and hotels ended up in the early 1990s :huh:

Might also go back to the "live above the shop/office" model for small businesses?

(IMHO most of the "luxury apartments" in town centres outside London will end up with DHSS tenants and students anyway)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
thats the issue,you could live in them I guess.

crucially,at the prices they're asking at the minute they are unusable.Maybe when they get cheap enough,I'll either rent one or buy one and run my little life from it.

I think SNACR is on to something when he talks about rent free and turn over rents.

the price crash will lead to much lower retns from where small business can build back up.

Thats what happens eventually when the rents go down far enough

All sorts of odd little shops appear on secondary high streets...

or residential conversion (but that requires planning permission)

In the 17-18th centuries most businessmen used the ground floor of their house as a shop or office

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's going to be very difficult for retailers. I know loads of people who are working short time e.g. losing 20% of their income from working 4 days instead of five. This means that the bills still have to be paid resulting in less money to spend on the high street. Many people aren't working and unemployment is rising fast. Retailers have to compete on price with internet prices as customers are now price-aware.

Unless it's like Notting Hill people won't want to live in/above shops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's going to be very difficult for retailers. I know loads of people who are working short time e.g. losing 20% of their income from working 4 days instead of five. This means that the bills still have to be paid resulting in less money to spend on the high street. Many people aren't working and unemployment is rising fast. Retailers have to compete on price with internet prices as customers are now price-aware.

Unless it's like Notting Hill people won't want to live in/above shops.

I was thinking of two scenarios where this happens:

- where its a sleepy small town high street which has some houses on it anyway (lots of arts and crafts type people have shops in these places as far as I can see)

- where the rent to live there is cheap (think central liverpool)

People will live above shops if the rent is cheap enough and they have little money ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was thinking of two scenarios where this happens:

- where its a sleepy small town high street which has some houses on it anyway (lots of arts and crafts type people have shops in these places as far as I can see)

- where the rent to live there is cheap (think central liverpool)

People will live above shops if the rent is cheap enough and they have little money ;)

Yes, sleepy small town high streets (places with cathedrals etc. that aattract tourists and have good universities) would be good. I wonder how many of these arts and crafts type shops are viable. I expect many were intended for 'her indoors' to run by bankers and the like. I agree it could be a way for people to move into a better area. We will see if the high street is viable soon enough because if this is the case the shops should not stay empty for long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, sleepy small town high streets (places with cathedrals etc. that aattract tourists and have good universities) would be good. I wonder how many of these arts and crafts type shops are viable. I expect many were intended for 'her indoors' to run by bankers and the like. I agree it could be a way for people to move into a better area. We will see if the high street is viable soon enough because if this is the case the shops should not stay empty for long.

Oh I dont think they are high return investments - i think they are low return "lifestyle businesses", shortly to become no return "lifestyle businesses" :(

I would say with some certainty that a lot of these secondary/tertiary high street shops will stay boarded up for at least a year :(

As to your bolded comment - i was thinking particularly about a recent trip to Canterbury when I made my original post ;)

the whole of the high street west of the cathedral to the city walls is crammed with independent shops selling cack and chintz who must be paying little/no rent or just wont survive...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obviously the logical thing to do would be to legalise certain drugs, prostitution and gun ownership, and turn them into shooting galleries, brothels and gun shops. Although probably not best to put the shooting galleries and gun shops next door to each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lows ahead for the High Street (relate darticle from a month ago)

Link

The other night, the 'Save our Shops' titled Money Programme with Mary Porta from the 'Mary Queen of Shops' series was repeated. Did anyone see it ?

It was carnage in Tewksbury and different from Marys normal championing of shops, as she had no real answers, just a few token gestures. It was weird seeing her report on such devastation of her obsession, perhaps she was scared.

A bit like forcing Krusty round some repo'd housing and rubbing her face in it

Gateshead was quoted as having 60% of shops empty :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lows ahead for the High Street (relate darticle from a month ago)

Link

The other night, the 'Save our Shops' titled Money Programme with Mary Porta from the 'Mary Queen of Shops' series was repeated. Did anyone see it ?

It was carnage in Tewksbury and different from Marys normal championing of shops, as she had no real answers, just a few token gestures. It was weird seeing her report on such devastation of her obsession, perhaps she was scared.

A bit like forcing Krusty round some repo'd housing and rubbing her face in it

Gateshead was quoted as having 60% of shops empty :o

its no great loss though is it, except for the landlord, the shop owner and the employees of course... :(

you just need to find alternative uses for the buildings ;)

someone suggested pop-up art galleries in a paper :lol:

I dont think that would go down well in gateshead though :unsure:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the whole of the high street west of the cathedral to the city walls is crammed with independent shops selling cRack and chintz who must be paying little/no rent or just wont survive...

Good Heavens! I misread that the first time. Could be an interesting business model. :blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greedy commercial landlords have a lot to answer for. But their greed would not have been possible were it not for the vast numbers of secondary site retailers who, just as gullible in the housing market, seem to be willing to part with thousands of excess rent charges to start up yet another marginal or failed business.

Local businesses rates are possibly worse. The average retailer gets precisely zero benefit from the exhorbitant rates they pay. In many cases they do not even get their rubbish collected and have to make private arrangements. The street lighting might be one service but in most streets this is already covered by the over shop flats with their council tax.

We need to look much further than just the banks and HPI to explain where a huge amount of tax payers money has disappeared.

The issue stopping the needed huge reductions in both rates and rent for businesses is the fact that for every unfortunate business suffering then closing due to poor margins and ludicrous expenses, there is always another mug willing to pay through the nose for the sake of setting up yet another marginally viable business.

For the average corporation run retail chain the story is different. Rates and rent barely impact on their running costs, the greatest proportion of which are wages..

Edited by VacantPossession

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a recent trip to Huddersfield struck by number of empty shops, born out in this report.

Needs to be a fundamental reform and rethink I think. I think the multiples have shot themselves in the foot. Every city centre looks the same now, with no variety.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lows ahead for the High Street (relate darticle from a month ago)

Link

The other night, the 'Save our Shops' titled Money Programme with Mary Porta from the 'Mary Queen of Shops' series was repeated. Did anyone see it ?

It was carnage in Tewksbury and different from Marys normal championing of shops, as she had no real answers, just a few token gestures. It was weird seeing her report on such devastation of her obsession, perhaps she was scared.

A bit like forcing Krusty round some repo'd housing and rubbing her face in it

Gateshead was quoted as having 60% of shops empty :o

Yeah I saw that programme - Frightening stuff for shop owners. It was revealing in that the programme just seemed to fizzle out without offering any real answers to their predicament. I wonder how many of these shop owners have contingency plans for a sudden dramatic drop in custom?

We discussed on here some of these problems etc on this thread about the high street:

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...p;#entry1622809

Edited by crashologist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
very good point,but I think the LL's win it.what really screws over small shops particularly are 7 year leases whether the business does well or not.The LL therefore has no interest in whether it's viable,jsut whether they can foreclose on the shopkeepers hosue.

I know a lass at the minute in exactly this position.selling cards!!!! :ph34r: and a few designer chairs.she will lsoe her home.

If she's crosscollateralised and/or given personal rent guarantees up to a decent amount, then that's the risk she took when she decided to do the whole "let's open a shop selling consumerist sht1 nobody needs, but they want when they have money in their pocket". To be honest, it's a grown up world, she's in business, if she made a decision to do what she's done, then "them's the breaks."

If she's risked her home to do so, then she's a bit mentalist. If she didn't spend a couple of grand getting proper advice on what to do before signing away her home (potentially) then she's not alone - but still mentalist - not spending a few quid to protect your home/get sane advice is barmy - but so many people say do everything on price....

Edited by Rachman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's hard to ascertain who's been the most greedy (and thus killing the bird laying the golden egg) - property owners demanding ever-increasing rental income, or Government with the business rates.

At least the propert owners provide the property in exchange for the rents. The government only provides nore taxes and red tape.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thats what happens eventually when the rents go down far enough

All sorts of odd little shops appear on secondary high streets...

or residential conversion (but that requires planning permission)

In the 17-18th centuries most businessmen used the ground floor of their house as a shop or office

Old photos of Leamington Spa show the high street as being entirely merchants' houses 150 years ago. Perhaps we'll go back to that and stop buying sh@te from cheap shops.

Alternatively legalise brothels and spark inflation of manhoods at least...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Scary figures :(

I agree with you secondary retail property is a lousy investment ;)

I wonder what all those high street shops are going to end up used for?

Converted into flats maybe?

It's not just secondary that's struggling, prime is no better. This is the sort of conventional wisdom carried over from the last recession that many people erroneously believe to be a blueprint for the current depression.

I would also pour cold water on the idea there'll be small retailers filling the voids, certainly not selling anything anyone needs. A startup will simply be unable to source stock competitively, the factories are all in China and the wholesalers are all gone.

Greedy commercial landlords have a lot to answer for. But their greed would not have been possible were it not for the vast numbers of secondary site retailers who, just as gullible in the housing market, seem to be willing to part with thousands of excess rent charges to start up yet another marginal or failed business.

Local businesses rates are possibly worse. The average retailer gets precisely zero benefit from the exhorbitant rates they pay. In many cases they do not even get their rubbish collected and have to make private arrangements. The street lighting might be one service but in most streets this is already covered by the over shop flats with their council tax.

We need to look much further than just the banks and HPI to explain where a huge amount of tax payers money has disappeared.

The issue stopping the needed huge reductions in both rates and rent for businesses is the fact that for every unfortunate business suffering then closing due to poor margins and ludicrous expenses, there is always another mug willing to pay through the nose for the sake of setting up yet another marginally viable business.

For the average corporation run retail chain the story is different. Rates and rent barely impact on their running costs, the greatest proportion of which are wages..

This is fitting a plausible sounding but wrong narrative to events. It is quite simply complete nonsense to suggest that small independent startups were the driving force behind the steep rental uplifts of the last decade. There's simply no comparison between misguided retail startups and BTL.

As I've said repeatedly banks were not lending willy nilly to SMEs unless through MEW. Most of the cheap debt money went to larger and grander rapidly-expanding private equity backed concerns, this and the cheap debt money that flooded towards landlords was the driving force behind the rent increases. Private equity again were behind a plethora of asset stripping sale and leaseback deals that set new rent precedents.

Business rates are a convenient whipping boy but a red herring really. No. they're certainly not value for money as far as businesses are concerned but they can't be held responsible for the current debacle however tempting it is to.

"For the average corporation run retail chain the story is different. Rates and rent barely impact on their running costs, the greatest proportion of which are wages.." :rolleyes:

If she's crosscollateralised and/or given personal rent guarantees up to a decent amount, then that's the risk she took when she decided to do the whole "let's open a shop selling consumerist sht1 nobody needs, but they want when they have money in their pocket". To be honest, it's a grown up world, she's in business, if she made a decision to do what she's done, then "them's the breaks."

If she's risked her home to do so, then she's a bit mentalist. If she didn't spend a couple of grand getting proper advice on what to do before signing away her home (potentially) then she's not alone - but still mentalist - not spending a few quid to protect your home/get sane advice is barmy - but so many people say do everything on price....

This is a complete half-witted mangle of conflicting HPC dogma where the conclusion is 'shops sell tat' dogma trumps 'money borrowing bad' dogma.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Scary figures :(

I agree with you secondary retail property is a lousy investment ;)

I wonder what all those high street shops are going to end up used for?

Converted into flats maybe?

iphone download points. its the new food for the young and flashy. 6000 applications to download.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's not just secondary that's struggling, prime is no better. This is the sort of conventional wisdom carried over from the last recession that many people erroneously believe to be a blueprint for the current depression.

I would also pour cold water on the idea there'll be small retailers filling the voids, certainly not selling anything anyone needs. A startup will simply be unable to source stock competitively, the factories are all in China and the wholesalers are all gone.

[...]

I would suggest that previously prime retail can easily become secondary when a new shopping centre opens nearby etc - so perhaps our disagreement is one of nomenclature? :unsure:

After all new retail developments have been mushrooming over the UK this decade :blink:

I'd agree with you on the small shops, but you might see more artisan shopkeepers, however I doubt most will do much trade (Frugaility means Ikea) :(

Which brings me back to shops becoming flats and houses again - eventually and inevitably (but now I'll shut up about that one)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
iphone download points. its the new food for the young and flashy. 6000 applications to download.

eh, you dont need a down load point for an iphone... ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eh, you dont need a down load point for an iphone... ;)

come to think of it, you dont need an iphone....or its luvly downloads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't see councils allowing mass conversion of shop units into houses or flats. They might in REALLY secondary shopping streets, like they did ten to fifteen years ago in the street where I live.

But I really cannot see them allowing a parade of shop units, even if a lot are empty, to become residential. They don't want to lose places that people can rent for businesses.

All three shop units that we own (2 in Kilburn, 1 in Cricklewood) seem to be rented OK for the moment.

Two of the three are on busy local London "high streets" and will always rent to someone, so long as we are not greedy (and we aren't: that's why ours are full when other landlords would rather hold out for an unachievable rent and have them stay empty!).

The other one struggles a bit. If the current lessees stuff up, we may see if we could convert the rear half of the very deep shop unit to a studio flat, and then we could just rent the remaining shop space for a peppercorn rent to a charity or whoever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • The Prime Minister stated that there were three Brexit options available to the UK:   296 members have voted

    1. 1. Which of the Prime Minister's options would you choose?


      • Leave with the negotiated deal
      • Remain
      • Leave with no deal

    Please sign in or register to vote in this poll. View topic


×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.