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Sceptacled Bear

New Labour Discovers Class System

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Just maybe the professions are becoming so unattainable for people educated at state schools because the left-wing ideologically dominated institutions provide such a poor education? Lowering the bar, forcibly by law is as usual going to be the solution.

Despair of Britain's future.

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Well since all they've done since taking power is decrease social mobility, why not raise the subject now? A gift to the Tories.

They are locked in an uncomfortable trap; they want to have less well-off get on, but they don't want anyone to fail. Result, everyone has to get on but the only way to do that is to make the eductaional certificate system valueless and drop standards. Hitch: in the real world you have to do it for real, not just in an exam or teacher-assessed paper, and if you're education hasn't equipped you, you're knackered for a profession.

Typical NuLab - not a clue about how to actually do anything.

Oh, have they also considered that the children of judges are more likely to want to be judges - following parents and all that?

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Apart from educational standards the other problem is rising results.

There are now so many people with all A grades at 'A' level that it is impossible to select intelligent, talent students based on exam results. So Tarquin gets through and Waynetta gets binned.

If only students with 130+ IQ's and a willingness to do 14 hours study a day were getting top marks, there wouldn't be a problem.

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I heard this on R4 this morning and thought 'What the.....?' With the economy sliding into depression this is a priority for Brown?

For God's sake, this is coming from a party that did more than any other to decrease social mobility by closing the grammar schools and promoting the 'all must have prizes' comprehensive system. Can't they see that every attempt they make to lower standards and force improperly educated people into Oxbridge will be check mated by those institutions, because they are run by far cleverer people than the idiot socialists in government?

Stop trying to distract us and start trying to run the country!

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Just maybe the professions are becoming so unattainable for people educated at state schools because the left-wing ideologically dominated institutions provide such a poor education? Lowering the bar, forcibly by law is as usual going to be the solution.

Despair of Britain's future.

+1

But it's ok, the govt say we need 6 kergillion more 'professionals' by next week.

Good job Jacqui's not Home Secretary any more. You know how she felt about sex workers.

Edited by Sceptacled Bear

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<pedantic mode on>

it's 'your' education

<pedantic mode off>

There's a reason most of my posts are edited, and it's because I'm a pedant too. I saw that one and decided just for once to resist the temptation, and this is the result :lol:

Never again...........

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Guest X-QUORK

To quote Alan Milburn on the Today program this morning: "I want more pushy parents, not fewer."

God help us, the last thing we need on this planet are more X5-driving, self-obsessed, selfish, aspirationals. Here's an idea Alan, rather than trying to turn every child into a barrister, why not create some decent Technical Colleges and give the less academic kids proper vocational skills?

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This is actually very true. Funnily enough those grammar schools behaved like pushy middle class parents that many did not necessarily have at home.

It is expectations - not necessarily intelligence, not necessarily academic excellence and not necessarily dilligence that drives people to aspire.

Indeed. I went to a comp (formerly a Secondary Modern) but it was run by an insane Headmaster with the aspirations of a top Grammar. Guess what? We had 3 Oxbridge entrants from my year.

It was a competitive school.

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The liberal middle class have been in denial about this for the whole of new labour's time afaict.

Church schools ring-fenced by the middle classes, with collusion from the churches as cheap* alternatives to private prep schools are just the first step in ensuring that Tristan and Samantha have nothing to do with Wayne and Beyonce.

The bottom line is that middle class parents are more likely to

  1. Give a damn about their kid's future
  2. Know how to manipulate the system to ensure that future

For some reason, imho, working class parents who give a damn are pretty cr@p at the manipulation, and the ones who are good at manipulation don't give a damn. It would be nice to fix this - anyone who thinks that an almost exclusively upper-middle class judiciary is a good thing needs to rethink their position - but any direct measure is either going to be so intrusive as to be unsupportable, or it'll just be hijacked by the middle-class parents again.

That said, I'd remove the charitable status from private education, close the church schools and set specific targets for basic demographics in the primary and secondary schools.

* anyone who suggest that I should have said "free" is living in la-la land

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Guest X-QUORK
That said, I'd remove the charitable status from private education, close the church schools and set specific targets for basic demographics in the primary and secondary schools.

+1

The answer is to provide a high standard of the right type of education at all levels, not to encourage gobshite aspirant parents to elbow equally deserving kids to their own out of the way. Jesus, Milton Friedmann would be proud of NuLab.

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This is actually very true. Funnily enough those grammar schools behaved like pushy middle class parents that many did not necessarily have at home.

It is expectations - not necessarily intelligence, not necessarily academic excellence and not necessarily dilligence that drives people to aspire.

I agree completely.

Imagine the cost of studying medicine for 5 years now, well it's 20-30k.

Wages of junior doctors hardly service it now their hours have been reduced.

Not for the poor.

Nick

(Grammar school educated son of lorry driver, Consultant Surgeon, and I taught medical students yesterday.)

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That said, I'd remove the charitable status from private education, close the church schools and set specific targets for basic demographics in the primary and secondary schools.

Ah yes, some more targets for social engineering. That'll do the trick.

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Surely in the real professions, elitism is a good thing. We want the best doctors, the best scientists, the best managers.

The last thing we want is the 'real' professions dumbed down in the way that almost everything else has been.

Edited by blankster

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What exactly is the point of their statement?

First of all, it does seem if you work hard you can get into any profession you want to. Maybe it is easier if your dad is a lawyer to become a lawyer. But I don't see people being excluded from being one.

Bright people with professional jobs normally have bright kids which they educate well and expect them to go into a profession.

Also, we only need so many Lawyers and Doctors. If we have enough people becoming Doctors and Lawyers, what is the point of going out of your way to get people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds to become Doctors and Lawyers when that will mean depriving the wealthy of these jobs? Those sons and daughters of wealthy people deprived of a good job then get job in MacDonalds. But don't worry folks, at least now they are poor and their kids will be able get assistance in landing a professional job.

The gap between rich and poor has GROWN under this government. And they're banging on about social mobility? It's a joke, surely?

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Also hidden in this news story was the throw-away made-up statistic that Britain will need 7 million more top professionals in the future! Absolute nonsense, I say!

Edited by blankster

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Surely in the real professions, elitism is a good thing. We want the best doctors, the best scientists, the best managers.

The last thing we want is the 'real' professions dumbed down in the way that almost everything else has been.

Do you not think it a remarkable co-incidence that all the best happen to come from a handful of schools? They must shocked when they meet each other!

The top scientists are from a variety of backgrounds, as it is not an easy choice, but one motivated by the possibility of a job when there is no chance of a cushsy number through contacts after graduation, which is why we also see an increase in the propportion of state school backgrounds when we get to PhD's.

For managers, doctors, MP, we are clearly wasting people of better potential to go for the right school instead. This is not elitism but pig headed stupidity.

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To quote Alan Milburn on the Today program this morning: "I want more pushy parents, not fewer."

God help us, the last thing we need on this planet are more X5-driving, self-obsessed, selfish, aspirationals. Here's an idea Alan, rather than trying to turn every child into a barrister, why not create some decent Technical Colleges and give the less academic kids proper vocational skills?

Indeed. An this from the man who people want as leader.

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Quentin Letts on the BBC replying with the right wing response was disgraceful. He was calling for the ditching of the entire equalities agenda.

Apparently, by the process of survival of the fittest, good people will always get on.

Currently, I am fighting four Employment Tribunal cases because the NHS treats the Disability legislation with contempt.

Starting employment now is so difficult, even without aspiring to the top professions. It is time to take appointments, certainly in the Public Sector, out of the hands of rubbish HR departments who rely so heavily on university qualifications which are meaningless.

The Department of Work and Pensions should run assessment centres which evaluate skills free of class advantage and dishonest academic classifications.

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Hypothesis from my work as a GP:

There is a statistical correlation between a patient being "middle class" (however one defines that) and having a collaborative (assertive in the positive sense) approach to authority: EG "What can we do about my mother's Alzheimers?" as opposed to submissive "Whatever you say, doc" or aggressive "I'm not leaving until you give me a prescription".

Now this correlation may be simply a reflection of my own prejudices, I accept that.

But it could also suggest something very significant. That middle class children are likely to be brought up with a collaborative attitude to authority which serves them extremely well at interviews etc.

If true then solving that source of inequality seems rather difficult to me.

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