Brian Potter Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Working class to me is a set of values - not limited to but including -Taking pride in your own self sufficiency Understanding how a car/basic building/the world works and being able to repair if need be Treating your children with a healthy does of real love (not material love) and a healthy dose of admonishment when they do something not in their best interests - the opposite of little emperor syndrome. Looking after your Mum and Dad with the odd drink/ meal/ and £20 to spend at the bookies Treating all your nephews/nieces as your own Being open to new ideas food/opera/thoughts but not taking them as gospel as something you have to do Buying the first round Standing your ground physically/emotionally and financially Having a healthy distrust of the police/taxman anyone in authority Believing that all rules are for the obedience of the stupid and the guidance of the wise I think this is great. Spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_FaFa!_* Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Working class to me is a set of values - not limited to but including -Taking pride in your own self sufficiency Understanding how a car/basic building/the world works and being able to repair if need be Treating your children with a healthy does of real love (not material love) and a healthy dose of admonishment when they do something not in their best interests - the opposite of little emperor syndrome. Looking after your Mum and Dad with the odd drink/ meal/ and £20 to spend at the bookies Treating all your nephews/nieces as your own Being open to new ideas food/opera/thoughts but not taking them as gospel as something you have to do Buying the first round Standing your ground physically/emotionally and financially Having a healthy distrust of the police/taxman anyone in authority Believing that all rules are for the obedience of the stupid and the guidance of the wise Umm.....I would consider myself middle class (entirely privately educated) so your working class values don't strike me as working class more one nation Tory and the values of those with a brain. Here's my take: 1. Taking pride in your own self sufficiency Yeah, absolutely. Of course there are the gilded ones, but being able to show that you produced a good part of your wealth is important for self-esteem 2. Understanding how a car/basic building/the world works and being able to repair if need be Ok, maybe I'd take the car to the garage (if I owned one) but I have a working knowledge of how to fix stuff. 3. Treating your children with a healthy does of real love (not material love) and a healthy dose of admonishment when they do something not in their best interests - the opposite of little emperor syndrome. Clearly you haven't met many rich kids, or only kids of the wannabes not the people who have the real money. When I was growing up in the 80s and 90s my parents had friends where hubby was undoubtedly a millionaire (massive house, all en suite, indoor pool etc etc) and they were incredibly strict with their kids, in their faces absolutely constantly. It was similiar at my school where it was A grades all round and if you were in the top set you were expected to achieve a scholarship to public school (not easily done, questions approaching GCSE level). 4. Looking after your Mum and Dad with the odd drink/ meal/ and £20 to spend at the bookies I'd happily buy a meal for my parents if they let me, and get gifts for them on b'days etc etc. 5. Treating all your nephews/nieces as your own Goes without saying. What sort of bastards do you know? 6. Being open to new ideas food/opera/thoughts but not taking them as gospel as something you have to do This is open mindedness and is not class determined 7. Buying the first round We are not all cheapskates y'know! 8. Standing your ground physically/emotionally and financially Absolutely. If public school teaches you anything, it is that. 9. Having a healthy distrust of the police/taxman anyone in authority Most British people have this I think. In fact it probably goes too far. 10. Believing that all rules are for the obedience of the stupid and the guidance of the wise Yes. With all due respect (and I genuinely respect your opinions) I think your take on the middle class is mainly fed by imbeciles on TV leveraging themselves on silly get rich quick schemes. I don't know anyone who did that in the last 10 years, the people with real money aren't interested in get rich quick - because they already have money or know they will get there in the end with their high paying jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bowman Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Umm.....I would consider myself middle class (entirely privately educated) so your working class values don't strike me as working class more one nation Tory and the values of those with a brain.Here's my take: 1. Taking pride in your own self sufficiency Yeah, absolutely. Of course there are the gilded ones, but being able to show that you produced a good part of your wealth is important for self-esteem 2. Understanding how a car/basic building/the world works and being able to repair if need be Ok, maybe I'd take the car to the garage (if I owned one) but I have a working knowledge of how to fix stuff. 3. Treating your children with a healthy does of real love (not material love) and a healthy dose of admonishment when they do something not in their best interests - the opposite of little emperor syndrome. Clearly you haven't met many rich kids, or only kids of the wannabes not the people who have the real money. When I was growing up in the 80s and 90s my parents had friends where hubby was undoubtedly a millionaire (massive house, all en suite, indoor pool etc etc) and they were incredibly strict with their kids, in their faces absolutely constantly. It was similiar at my school where it was A grades all round and if you were in the top set you were expected to achieve a scholarship to public school (not easily done, questions approaching GCSE level). 4. Looking after your Mum and Dad with the odd drink/ meal/ and £20 to spend at the bookies I'd happily buy a meal for my parents if they let me, and get gifts for them on b'days etc etc. 5. Treating all your nephews/nieces as your own Goes without saying. What sort of bastards do you know? 6. Being open to new ideas food/opera/thoughts but not taking them as gospel as something you have to do This is open mindedness and is not class determined 7. Buying the first round We are not all cheapskates y'know! 8. Standing your ground physically/emotionally and financially Absolutely. If public school teaches you anything, it is that. 9. Having a healthy distrust of the police/taxman anyone in authority Most British people have this I think. In fact it probably goes too far. 10. Believing that all rules are for the obedience of the stupid and the guidance of the wise Yes. With all due respect (and I genuinely respect your opinions) I think your take on the middle class is mainly fed by imbeciles on TV leveraging themselves on silly get rich quick schemes. I don't know anyone who did that in the last 10 years, the people with real money aren't interested in get rich quick - because they already have money or know they will get there in the end with their high paying jobs. I thought the gor blimey chimmney sweeps like me were the chippy ones ? Didn't say they were exclusively working class values. It is a complex debate as we have proved I think, I think you have a point with the Tory one nation bit, the sooner the blues realise where their true support is the sooner they will build a decent lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
council dweller Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 (edited) I didn't think it was complex - more the simple blue collar one jumped the gap (luck.stamina etc) own property a business and kids went to private school.Not such an unusual strory in North London. Still like grease, spannering and not convinced of the merits of opera or brown rice. I have to admit to being a sad case. My family has moved 'up' into the middle classes and left me wallowing in workingclassdom. I can't say I feel any envy though, not least because things seem to be getting much tougher for them over the last couple of years whereas I have no real problem. A simple unpretentious life ain't too bad. Btw, did I ever mention my Rover 414? Edited July 13, 2009 by council dweller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skinty Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Why does there even have to be a working class, middle class and upper class anymore? Aren't we in danger of applying previous definitions when they no longer apply? Surely it should be poor parasite class, slave class and rich parasite class ...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24gray24 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I'd recommend Gilbert and Sullivan as the most enjoyable operas: Mikado, Pirates of Penzance. Genuinely funny and good tunes. Then maybe Rossini, the one where the landlady is renting it out to 2 different people at once (day shift and night shift). The trouble with real opera is one suspects a lot of the people there are just making some kind of absurd statement, eg laughing loudly at the (feeble) musical jokes (and counting the bars to show off a)they knew there's a joke and where it is in the score). Plus it's way too expensive relative to a film. It's hard to imagine how, 200 years ago, it was cutting edge and sexy, the disco of its day. On the middle class trouble front: a)how much income is the threshold for middle class? the pressure on them will only come when their (inherited) equity has been swallowed up and one of them has lost their jobs: surely that hasn't happened yet. (What may have happened is that a lot of people who sound middle class, but whose income is in fact working class, have bought middle class over their financial heads, and are now trying to bail out.) I don't see middle class impoverishment yet. More like, "I've still got my job, so I'm ok for now". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selling up Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Why does there even have to be a working class, middle class and upper class anymore? Aren't we in danger of applying previous definitions when they no longer apply?Surely it should be poor parasite class, slave class and rich parasite class ...? Very wise. On a separate note, and sticking with more familiar class distinctions: I think that success in "playing the system" may be a class attribute. Note that this phrase is most commonly applied to the unemployed "underclass" and their benefit entitlement. But I think any investigation would show that the biggest players of the system are the middle classes... just think of school catchment areas etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Foil Hat Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Essex seems rammed to the gills with wide boys and women who all want to look a million dollars, but somehow end up looking like a million Zimbabwe dollars. It's all brand names, fake tan, hair dye, poncing about with multiple bags on their arms with nose in the air, having a big 4x4 etc. Then the shout, spit, speed, and generally show themselves for what they are, which in the main is chavs/underclass with money. Borrowed or illicit money I am sure lol. TFH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_FaFa!_* Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Note that this phrase is most commonly applied to the unemployed "underclass" and their benefit entitlement. But I think any investigation would show that the biggest players of the system are the middle classes... just think of school catchment areas etc. Again, school cathement areas is middle class wannabe. You are leveraging to access a level of education you should be able to purchase outright. If you cannot afford to send Tamara to boarding school you are not middle class. And the scholarship should be for show. @Greg Bowman Fair point well made. It is saddening that Cameron fails to see one nation toryism as the real way forward. Sensible money, low tax, "I'll mind my own business if you mind yours" atittude, living within our means would do wonders for the UK. I think these attitudes are still here, but are they here in sufficient quantities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grizzly bear Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 If you cannot afford to send Tamara to boarding school you are not middle class. I don't agree at all; to be able to afford boarding school you have to be a very high earner. This is not the same as middle class. And even the high earners are struggling with boarding schools: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/aef03c94-65e0-11...144feabdc0.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverland Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I don't agree at all; to be able to afford boarding school you have to be a very high earner. This is not the same as middle class. And even the high earners are struggling with boarding schools: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/aef03c94-65e0-11...144feabdc0.html £25k pa after tax means £40k per year pre-tax eanrings Two little beggars means £80 pre year pre-tax income Isn't three times the median salary? Thats two high earning parents or one mega-earner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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