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zebbedee

Question About Hmo's

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Hi,

I'd like to know how the law would work on this one, The place I live is shared with me & my gorlfriend someone else and the landlords mate. The landlord used to live here but moved out when he got married 18months ago. The rent is £540 per month and this includes bills. The landlord has just said he's putting the rent up by dividing the bills between the 5 of us (him included) but I'm sure I read somewhere that the payment of bills it is the landlords of HMO's reponsibility. Is this right.

I think we'll be moving anyhows coz it's a scab pit which was only tolerable because of the (when bills are included) low rent but would then be comparable with others in the area if bills become neccessary. It's a bit ironic really, when I search propertybee regularly and see there are a great many places for rent which are taking months to shift and rents on them are falling.

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Hi,

I'd like to know how the law would work on this one, The place I live is shared with me & my gorlfriend someone else and the landlords mate. The landlord used to live here but moved out when he got married 18months ago. The rent is £540 per month and this includes bills. The landlord has just said he's putting the rent up by dividing the bills between the 5 of us (him included) but I'm sure I read somewhere that the payment of bills it is the landlords of HMO's reponsibility. Is this right.

I think we'll be moving anyhows coz it's a scab pit which was only tolerable because of the (when bills are included) low rent but would then be comparable with others in the area if bills become neccessary. It's a bit ironic really, when I search propertybee regularly and see there are a great many places for rent which are taking months to shift and rents on them are falling.

Is the rent 540 each or for the house in total, if it is the later then it is not an HMO (it unlikely it is anyway, HMO's are usually bedsits) in which case it is a regular tenancy and the landlord has to give you notice if rent increase so you can terminate the tenancy if you don't like it.

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Is the rent 540 each or for the house in total, if it is the later then it is not an HMO (it unlikely it is anyway, HMO's are usually bedsits) in which case it is a regular tenancy and the landlord has to give you notice if rent increase so you can terminate the tenancy if you don't like it.

Mine and my girlfriends rent (we each and together rent space in the house) is £540, I don't know what the others pay. We share the kitchen with the others but otherwise have the livingroom, two bedrooms and a bathroom. The each share a shower room and have thier bedrooms.

Edited by zebbedee

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Mine and my girlfriends rent (we each and together rent space in the house) is £540, I don't know what the others pay. We share the kitchen with the others but otherwise have the livingroom, two bedrooms and a bathroom. The each share a shower room and have thier bedrooms.

It is not an HMO, do you have a contract?

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It is not an HMO, do you have a contract?

Only an oral one, but can demonstrate the conditions of it (have been here for 6 years). The landlord originally stayed here so it was initially more lodgings. It worked well for a long time, but the landlord is in financial sh!t now (bought a place in spain at spains height and GBP/EUR is killing him) and thinks he can get the tenents to bail him out.

Edited by zebbedee

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Hi,

I'd like to know how the law would work on this one, The place I live is shared with me & my gorlfriend someone else and the landlords mate. The landlord used to live here but moved out when he got married 18months ago. The rent is £540 per month and this includes bills. The landlord has just said he's putting the rent up by dividing the bills between the 5 of us (him included) but I'm sure I read somewhere that the payment of bills it is the landlords of HMO's reponsibility. Is this right.

I think we'll be moving anyhows coz it's a scab pit which was only tolerable because of the (when bills are included) low rent but would then be comparable with others in the area if bills become neccessary. It's a bit ironic really, when I search propertybee regularly and see there are a great many places for rent which are taking months to shift and rents on them are falling.

In HMO's and house shares where the occupants are not one family, the Council Tax is down to the Landlord but the Utilities such as Gas, Electric and Water can be included in the rent or divided between the tenants and paid on top.

The Landlord probably thinks he is not making enough profit and wants you all to help his bank balance. It may be fairer if he lowered your actual rent and then said that the Bills are to be charged between you - That would probably keep the bills down and also keep you and the landlord happy. But if it is a bit of a scab pit then best to look at some of the other properties you have found. Never know, you may find somewhere cheaper and better!

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Listened to a talk on HMOs yesterday.

Three conditions need to be met if a property is designated a House of Multiple Occupancy:

1) It must have 3 or more storeys

2) There must be at least 3 unrelated people living in it

3) There must be shared cooking and washing facilities.

All three conditions must be met to necessitate HMO licensing requirements.

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There's a lot of confusion going on above between HMOs and LICENSABLE HMOs

Your house is an HMO because it has more than two unrelated people in it. ( A family of 10 wouldn't be an HMO, even if there were uncles and aunts there as well as parents and kids)

see Salford's helful link to flowchart

http://www.salford.gov.uk/hmodefinition1-2.pdf

If the house has more than two storeys ( with a whole load of small print about basements and mezzanine floors!)AND has more than 5 persons in two or more households and they share facilities (whole load of small print about what consitutes self-contained) then its licensable - and that means not that the LL CAN license it , but that he MUST

See flow-chart.

http://www.salford.gov.uk/hmomandatorydefinition2.pdf

You ARE in an HMO but probably not licensable.

But the Environmental health can enforce most of the Mandatory HMO licence stuff by going round the back door of the HHSR regs - Bournemouth council stand up - and try and get all properties into their clutches (& licensing fees income, natch.)

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There's a lot of confusion going on above between HMOs and LICENSABLE HMOs

Thanks. I didn't fully catch the distinction between an HMO and licensable HMO. Your explanation gives me a better understanding

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There's a lot of confusion going on above between HMOs and LICENSABLE HMOs

Your house is an HMO because it has more than two unrelated people in it. ( A family of 10 wouldn't be an HMO, even if there were uncles and aunts there as well as parents and kids)

see Salford's helful link to flowchart

http://www.salford.gov.uk/hmodefinition1-2.pdf

If the house has more than two storeys ( with a whole load of small print about basements and mezzanine floors!)AND has more than 5 persons in two or more households and they share facilities (whole load of small print about what consitutes self-contained) then its licensable - and that means not that the LL CAN license it , but that he MUST

See flow-chart.

http://www.salford.gov.uk/hmomandatorydefinition2.pdf

You ARE in an HMO but probably not licensable.

But the Environmental health can enforce most of the Mandatory HMO licence stuff by going round the back door of the HHSR regs - Bournemouth council stand up - and try and get all properties into their clutches (& licensing fees income, natch.)

Thanks for the link, I thought it wasn't covered by the mandatory licensing. But it does look like it is one. There's also the consideration that as he has been paying the bills that that would form a term of the (even though not written) contract as it has been established by practice? and so couldn't actually be changed without our agreement? Then we'd need an s21? to be out in 2 months.

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Thanks for the link, I thought it wasn't covered by the mandatory licensing. But it does look like it is one. There's also the consideration that as he has been paying the bills that that would form a term of the (even though not written) contract as it has been established by practice? and so couldn't actually be changed without our agreement? Then we'd need an s21? to be out in 2 months.

He can't just put the rent up mid-contract. The inclusion of bills isn't an HMO thing in itself - our student lets have sometimes included bills, sometimes not. On the whole whole we find having the rent including bills works better ( though it also leads to tenants having the central heating on full blast in May & all the windows open!) as it avoids e.g. frozen pipes in winter when they've run out of cash.

Trying to start excluding bills effectively is like starting a new contract - can't be done mid-term.

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So it goes from wierd to wierder, we were on holiday the last 2 weeks and had set up ipcams in the rooms with a note (in the locked rooms) saying they were there and uploading the images to the internet. The bloody computer that was monitoring them pissing crashed though, not that he knew that-it was still running but had suffered an exception (passworded). So when we got back there was a note saying he had gone into the rooms AGAIN to check the heating. There is nothing wrong with the heating he seems to just have got it into his head that we are puting it on (in this heat). I presume the note was left because he had no idea the upload would have failed. Then today when my girlfriend got back there was a letter from him under the door-

16/7/09

Dear x and y

Since I welcomed you into my home, it has been mutually beneficial to both parties, but as your needs have changed as a couple, and with the glut in the letting market, it is a perfect opportunity to find something tailor-made for your needs, whether it be a designer apartment or a two bedroomed terrace with a garden. I wish you both all the best and hope you have a long and happy life together.

Best regards.

z.

Now although we had decided to move but were putting off looking until after this holiday this may seem perfectly civil. The wierd thing is we haven't mentioned to anone we were going to.

Does he think this would constitute a section 21 notice? Or more worryingly has he lost it altogether.

He has apparetly been telling the flatmate we'll be moving in a couple of months and he can change rooms.

Edit: removed LL's name

Edited by zebbedee

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Does he think this would constitute a section 21 notice? Or more worryingly has he lost it altogether.

He has apparetly been telling the flatmate we'll be moving in a couple of months and he can change rooms.

Edit: removed LL's name

No, of course it isn't proper notice.

You can ignore it (except in the sense that it indicates the Landlord's obviously loopy)

tim

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No, of course it isn't proper notice.

You can ignore it (except in the sense that it indicates the Landlord's obviously loopy)

tim

You CAN ignore it, but if you want to avoid a possible load of grief you might want to drop him a line inquiring whether he is under the illusion that he's given you valid notice.

But in your shoes I'd say the writing was on the wall - LL's tenuous grasp on reality, financial troubles, possible repossession as 99% certain on a residential mortgage.... I'd start looking now. The LL clearly thinks of you as a "paying guest"!!

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You CAN ignore it, but if you want to avoid a possible load of grief you might want to drop him a line inquiring whether he is under the illusion that he's given you valid notice.

But in your shoes I'd say the writing was on the wall - LL's tenuous grasp on reality, financial troubles, possible repossession as 99% certain on a residential mortgage.... I'd start looking now. The LL clearly thinks of you as a "paying guest"!!

Yeh, its kind of creepy, have had a look on RM with the Bee, there's about a dozen properties that would suit our needs at short notice. If I was a real @rse i'd screw him over coz i feel the letter and entry etc could be interpreted as him trying to force us out thereby effecting an unlawful eviction. I'm starting to think he's going to move back in, he got his wife to put her place (owned outright) on the market. I think he's looking at her place as a bailout for him and this place as a fallback.

Edited by zebbedee

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Is the rent 540 each or for the house in total, if it is the later then it is not an HMO (it unlikely it is anyway, HMO's are usually bedsits) in which case it is a regular tenancy and the landlord has to give you notice if rent increase so you can terminate the tenancy if you don't like it.

An HMO is 5 unrelated people over 3 floors or more.

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An HMO is 5 unrelated people over 3 floors or more.

NO NO NO NO NO!!!

That is a LICENSABLE HMO. An HMO is ANY property with more than two unrelated people in it. See my earlier post linking to Salford's handy flowcharts, or go to direct.gov.uk for it straight from the horse's mouth

If you live in a property in which three or more people live, at least one of whom is unrelated to the others and where you share facilities your council will call this type of accommodation a 'House in Multiple Occupation' or HMO.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommuni...ome/DG_10020863

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