Berlin - 10 Year Rental Contracts

[dericag]

Havent made any change to my contract with o. K is inconsistent with rent. Need to make a change but to whom. Would be great to get rent paid directly to my account.

Hi, i am back. I am having problem with kapall as well and i am in the midst of leaving K.

Bascially, k was okie for the past few month, i got my rent on time .

2 weeks ago, i decided to terminate their service and engage COB as my new management company since I felt K was too close to O.

I spoke to PS about my intention and send a written notice to K. Troblem arrived, I have received a reduced rental of 267 Euro on 18th May. At first, I thought

this was the compensation coming from O but I checked my account again, there was no money coming in. This means K has paid me a reduce rental.

Spoke to PS I cant go throught and tolerate this situtaion and i want to get out of K asap.

[dericag]

I have spoken to PS about this. It's absolutely uncommon that the vendors pays the estate agent! In Berlin the buyer pays them as well as teh notyra fees. Only lawyer fees have to be paid.

Yeap, they are cowboys agency. In fact it is illegel for seller to pay commission to eatate agent

[newlon]

Havent made any change to my contract with o. K is inconsistent with rent. Need to make a change but to whom. Would be great to get rent paid directly to my account.

sorry Buyers pay only that can make up to 10 - 12 % however small independent charge less to the buyer that how it should have come across , and Lawyer house Agencies check when they have been established ! Independent is BETTER !

Edited May 31, 2010 by newlon

[larry93]

Did anyone receive a signed Annulment Agreement? He has amended ours by removing several clauses. Has anyone received compensation?

[dericag]

Did anyone receive a signed Annulment Agreement? He has amended ours by removing several clauses. Has anyone received compensation?

I didnt receive the annulment agreement, who was it from and wat clauses were removed

I didnt received the 1 month compensation which was previously promised in th contract by Dr Ochel but did receive the outstanding rental from dec 2009

[dericag]

Hi, i am back. I am having problem with kapall as well and i am in the midst of leaving K.

Bascially, k was okie for the past few month, i got my rent on time .

2 weeks ago, i decided to terminate their service and engage COB as my new management company since I felt K was too close to O.

I spoke to PS about my intention and send a written notice to K. Troblem arrived, I have received a reduced rental of 267 Euro on 18th May. At first, I thought

this was the compensation coming from O but I checked my account again, there was no money coming in. This means K has paid me a reduce rental.

Spoke to PS I cant go throught and tolerate this situtaion and i want to get out of K asap.

Wrote to k, the very nice lady, aka Heika will send me a breakdown of my may rental payment

[dericag]

Wrote to k, the very nice lady, aka Heika will send me a breakdown of my may rental payment

Hi Matt,

Is there any way to reduce my maintenance fee???

K sent me the breakdown of my may rental, the shortfall of my rent is due to the second quarter property tax - 38Euro

My Gross rent is 459E

Managment fee 21E

Maintenance fee 132E

Quarterly property Tax 38E

Net rental 267E

[newlon]

Hi Matt,

Is there any way to reduce my maintenance fee???

K sent me the breakdown of my may rental, the shortfall of my rent is due to the second quarter property tax - 38Euro

My Gross rent is 459E

Managment fee 21E

Maintenance fee 132E

Quarterly property Tax 38E

Net rental 267E

[newlon]

Hope you are doing fine , still having London meetings , missing your input

Management Fee start from 5 euro per month up to 25 euro plus tax , will sent you a list off 6 different management Companies . e-mail them and see what they say .

What are they charges you for 132 E ???? Maintance and house management should be one !!

Just had the Owner`s meeting of my complex and saw that roughly 80 people already left K from last year !

Next year comes out the new mietspielgel, Rent mirror all 2 years in berlin and your housing company can see if you are entitled ( advise ) for a rent increase .

[larry93]

From what I understand the monthly maintenance fee is for the condominium company BWG, not K. K charge 21 euros. I think BWGs fees have to be paid whatever management company we choose. I'm not sure what service we would get for 5 euros a month and we don't want to keep changing, so we'll give it a go for now. I don't think BWGs fees have changed (apart from a slight annual increase).

I think we paid an overinflated price for the property so that we got guaranteed rent, no fees, rates etc. The rent Dr O initially got probably didn't cover all this, but as they increased the rent over the 10 years, everything would have evened out. If we increase the rent over the 10 years then perhaps things will even out a little.

Our worry is what extra costs there might be as we are now liable for these - eg: if extra maintenance work is required, if there is no tenant, if legal action is required etc. We're also having to pay the rates now. Before Dr O would have covered all this.

If dericag is only 38 euros (because of rates) below the rent originally guaranteed then that's good. Our rent is much lower than the guaranteed rent. We have never received the guaranteed rent from day 1. Initially we received ~50 euros/month less than expected (due to errors on their part setting everything up). Eventually we received ~12 euros/month less than we expected. We thought that everything was sorted and then we got Dr O's letter last Summer...

[newlon]

From what I understand the monthly maintenance fee is for the condominium company BWG, not K. K charge 21 euros. I think BWGs fees have to be paid whatever management company we choose. I'm not sure what service we would get for 5 euros a month and we don't want to keep changing, so we'll give it a go for now. I don't think BWGs fees have changed (apart from a slight annual increase).

I think we paid an overinflated price for the property so that we got guaranteed rent, no fees, rates etc. The rent Dr O initially got probably didn't cover all this, but as they increased the rent over the 10 years, everything would have evened out. If we increase the rent over the 10 years then perhaps things will even out a little.

Our worry is what extra costs there might be as we are now liable for these - eg: if extra maintenance work is required, if there is no tenant, if legal action is required etc. We're also having to pay the rates now. Before Dr O would have covered all this.

If dericag is only 38 euros (because of rates) below the rent originally guaranteed then that's good. Our rent is much lower than the guaranteed rent. We have never received the guaranteed rent from day 1. Initially we received ~50 euros/month less than expected (due to errors on their part setting everything up). Eventually we received ~12 euros/month less than we expected. We thought that everything was sorted and then we got Dr O's letter last Summer...

Had now 3 yearly charges from BGW and they are slighlty changes for the Maintance fees but they most in line with each year , BGW each year invites you to go to the meeting or sent you the draft for the new calender year with arising costs so you can vote if you like for this changes however if you are with K they will do it for you !

Repair fee`s are charged very different with varouis housing management companies some start at 2000 Euro and add from 5 - 9 % to you for there assistance , check your contract ,

secondly big charges occur when your tenant leaves , k charges 2 cold rents to look for a new tenant , others charge 1 cold rent or some nothing at all as agents charges it back to the new tenant .

When your flat is not occupied some Housing managemant companies still charge , some not , some only the first month !!

However Lawyers fee`s for problem arising are cross charged in all cases , it is really worth it to look out in your contract for charges .

Other charges can be running your yearly account i have seen contract of 100 Euro`s yearly as German banks charge for managing your account if you do not pay in your salary .

BTW next Year comes out the new Mietspiegel for Berlin all 2 Years ,and this tells you if your rent is in line with your area , you can check if it is worth to put your rent up or not , not long to go for this, your housing company should do this automatically however some charge for this too service , k chagres 20 euro `s

[larry93]

Did you manage to reduce any maintenance costs at the meeting?

[Alec]

Hi Matt,

Last week received a letter from the solicitor confirming the payment of the guarantee. Tried to agree details and sign contract with Manuela C but she is impossible to get in touch with. Finally received an angree e-mail from her today saying that she has got 12 customers and 250 flats and she is much too busy to respond to e-mails or phone calls. It seems to be a usual thing in Berlin - everybody likes to manage big groups of properties, not individual flats. Would not mind if you copy the list you promised to Erica to me.

Hope Erica is OK.

Good news - received the guarantee money this week.

[Seamus]

I've been reading through this thread with interest. I am amazed to see that so many people have bought Berlin property with 10 year guarantee and more amazed that anyone used MRI. All most people can do now is reduce running costs and understand what they have bought. Resale will not be an option and particularly if you have bought using MRI who will likely have 30% commission or more in the price so if you allow for legal fees etc you will make a huge loss. The rent in almost all parts of Berlin is controlled by the mietspiegel http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/wohnen/mietspiegel/. If you know the address, year and condition of the property you will see the allowable rent range for your property. Certain things will increase or decrease the rent. Only in some parts of Berlin where demand outweighs supply can you ask for more than the mietspiegel and only then if the apartment is empty. I am familiar with some of the companies mentioned in the thread. BK are indeed a professional company and will do the job correctly but in my opinion they grossly overcharge non German clients. I suspect you have some sort of rental pool and in that pool there will be tenants on old contracts whose rent may be fixed or where it is very difficult to increase the rent. I would find out who your particular tenant is, what kind of contract they have, consider the mietspiegel and then consider trying to get out of the 10 year deal if it is to your advantage. 10 year deals make no sense at all in berlin unless you buy in locations with social problems (like Marzahn, Hellersdorf, parts of Neukolln etc).

[Alec]

Thanks Seamus, useful link.

You are probably right about the overcharging, though I am not sure about the exact percentages. But on the other hand it is always a problem with the investments. The main problem was that at the time of buying it was close to the peak and now it is much lower.

[dericag]

Hi Matt,

Last week received a letter from the solicitor confirming the payment of the guarantee. Tried to agree details and sign contract with Manuela C but she is impossible to get in touch with. Finally received an angree e-mail from her today saying that she has got 12 customers and 250 flats and she is much too busy to respond to e-mails or phone calls. It seems to be a usual thing in Berlin - everybody likes to manage big groups of properties, not individual flats. Would not mind if you copy the list you promised to Erica to me.

Hope Erica is OK.

Good news - received the guarantee money this week.

Hi Alec,

It's great to know that your money is coming in. I understand how you feel about the M busy schedule and that's why i was unprepared to leave PS or even kapall now.

I wrote to few other management companies i found on the other forum sites, some reply me in German and whereas some aint bovvered to reply me.

just to keep you update, since transferred to k from Dec 09, i did receive my rental including for this month June, sometimes there could be a few days of delay but at least they do come in and I am not complaining. Most of time, they do reply my email in english and except one, will tell you more when i am in london, should be there in August. Also, i did not receive the 1 month compensation from Dr Ochel, has anyone got it ???

Erica

[larry93]

We didn't receive the 1 months compensation as Dr O would not sign our Annullment Agreement. We are now being asked to sign a new Agreement - the 1 month's compensation has been removed along with other clauses we're not happy about. Did Dr O actually sign the Agreement you signed?

[Ritchie]

We didn't receive the 1 months compensation as Dr O would not sign our Annullment Agreement. We are now being asked to sign a new Agreement - the 1 month's compensation has been removed along with other clauses we're not happy about. Did Dr O actually sign the Agreement you signed?

[Ritchie]

Sent messages to you yesterday and today without success. Must be a problem with the system.

[Ritchie]

I've been reading through this thread with interest. I am amazed to see that so many people have bought Berlin property with 10 year guarantee and more amazed that anyone used MRI. All most people can do now is reduce running costs and understand what they have bought. Resale will not be an option and particularly if you have bought using MRI who will likely have 30% commission or more in the price so if you allow for legal fees etc you will make a huge loss. The rent in almost all parts of Berlin is controlled by the mietspiegel http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/wohnen/mietspiegel/. If you know the address, year and condition of the property you will see the allowable rent range for your property. Certain things will increase or decrease the rent. Only in some parts of Berlin where demand outweighs supply can you ask for more than the mietspiegel and only then if the apartment is empty. I am familiar with some of the companies mentioned in the thread. BK are indeed a professional company and will do the job correctly but in my opinion they grossly overcharge non German clients. I suspect you have some sort of rental pool and in that pool there will be tenants on old contracts whose rent may be fixed or where it is very difficult to increase the rent. I would find out who your particular tenant is, what kind of contract they have, consider the mietspiegel and then consider trying to get out of the 10 year deal if it is to your advantage. 10 year deals make no sense at all in berlin unless you buy in locations with social problems (like Marzahn, Hellersdorf, parts of Neukolln etc).

[Ritchie]

Seamus,

I have a few points to raise.

You clearly don't have an understanding of the situation regarding MRI investors.The ten year guarantees did make economic sense for an investor. The rent being paid under the agreement was sufficient to make a viable if not spectacular investment. To advise people to move away from the higher rent agreed under the rental guarantee contract would be silly. The problem is that a partner to the MRI package is dishonouring the contract made with investors and investors are being pressurised to give up the guaranteed rent arrangement and accept a reduce and unguaranteed rent .

Have you checked out your other assertions regarding resale etc. as fact. I imagine at present a loss would be made on resale. Why do you say resale is not an option?

You may be right about the bona fida's of MRI etc but this is in hindsight and hindsight provides great clarity.

Alex suggests a reduction in value because properties were bought at their height. However, you have to remember that there was only a marginal increase in German apartment costs and a relatively small decline since. Different than Ireland/uk.

Thankyou for the information on the meitspiegel and rental pool which I intend to check out

[Seamus]

You are right - I am not familiar with the specific agreement, but I cannot possibly see how it would have made good commercial sense. The Berlin market has always been primarily for good, secure yield. Its possible to make growth but only if you buy sensibly. You can of course sell your apartment but my point was that you would make a large loss. MRI always charge excessive commission which wipes out any growth for several years even in a strong property market. On top of that they sell apartments in a block which you almost never see inside, which are the same price per sqm irrespective of their condition or floor or orientation. But maybe your purchase was different. I think most people who bought properties with 10 year gurantees just did not understand the Berlin market. And I know its easy to say that now, but I was saying this when the market was strong (on my own forum). But I am not going to post links because I am not looking for business (I am in the German property business).

[dericag]

We didn't receive the 1 months compensation as Dr O would not sign our Annullment Agreement. We are now being asked to sign a new Agreement - the 1 month's compensation has been removed along with other clauses we're not happy about. Did Dr O actually sign the Agreement you signed?

Hi Larry93,

I just spoke to my solicitor, and he has confirmed that O has signed my Annullment Agreement and only a certain percentage of the Annullment Agreements was refused. You should get your lawyer to make him asap as O is getting naughty again. My solicitor- P will speak to him this Wednesday again to get my money back. Will keep you update

Erica

[dericag]

Hi Larry93,

I just spoke to my solicitor, and he has confirmed that O has signed my Annullment Agreement and only a certain percentage of the Annullment Agreements was refused. You should get your lawyer to make him asap as O is getting naughty again. My solicitor- P will speak to him this Wednesday again to get my money back. Will keep you update

Erica

Went through the forum and ponder, has anyone really received the 1 month compensation from O???

I have raise this issue to my solicitor since this feb and till now still no luck.

Seems like O has no intention to adhere to the contract we signed.

Please drop me an email anyone has received the 1 month compensation from O??

I need some hope!!!!

[Ritchie]

You are right - I am not familiar with the specific agreement, but I cannot possibly see how it would have made good commercial sense. The Berlin market has always been primarily for good, secure yield. Its possible to make growth but only if you buy sensibly. You can of course sell your apartment but my point was that you would make a large loss. MRI always charge excessive commission which wipes out any growth for several years even in a strong property market. On top of that they sell apartments in a block which you almost never see inside, which are the same price per sqm irrespective of their condition or floor or orientation. But maybe your purchase was different. I think most people who bought properties with 10 year gurantees just did not understand the Berlin market. And I know its easy to say that now, but I was saying this when the market was strong (on my own forum). But I am not going to post links because I am not looking for business (I am in the German property business).