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Danny Deflation

Should Parents Be Fined For Their Child's School Misbehaviour?

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Ministers are set to announce plans to fine parents if their child continually misbehaves at school.

Good or bad idea?

I remember some classes at school where the lessons were ruined, not by an inexperienced or "soft" teacher, but because there were one or two little sh1ts who were clearly the consequence of bad parenting.

So I think fining parents is a great idea. If you have a kid, it's your responsibility to make sure it doesn't cause havoc. Some parents seem to ignore that responsibility, like the way some irresponsible dog owners ignore their mutts when they crap on the pavement. I'm not talking about minor misdemeanours like chewing gum and the like, but if a pupil does something major - truants, swears at a teacher, assualts another child, whatever - then the parents should be fined. Teachers are there to educate our youngsters; parents are the ones responsible to teach kids about boundaries. Why should the education of the good kids suffer because of a handful of poor parents?

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There is no point in fining somebody who is on benefits. Whatever the published level of the fine they will then be given so long to pay it that it will be unnoticeable. And the court won't bother to chase it up even if they don't pay it.

It's just another tax on the working parent.

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The only problem is that parents will attack teachers for giving them a fine.

Otherwise no probs.

In fact, child benefit should only be paid if the child is well behaved.

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There is no point in fining somebody who is on benefits. Whatever the published level of the fine they will then be given so long to pay it that it will be unnoticeable. And the court won't bother to chase it up even if they don't pay it.

It's just another tax on the working parent.

Au contraire. A lot of people on benefits allow their children to behave in an apalling manner becasue they know their unearned paycheque is safe.

Attack them in the pocket and they will suddenly be taking a very strong interest in their childs education before you can say "parasite".

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I don't support corporal punishment. I'm certainly no bleeding heart leftie, but studies have shown time and time again that the main effect of the cane is to teach pupils that imposing your will through physical violence and intimidation is the norm and acceptable. Many of the world's most sadistic and violent criminals can have their behaviour traced back to being on the receiving end of corporal punishment, either at school, in the home or both.

As for fining parents, there needs to be a distinction made between children who have some underlying physiological or psychological cause for their behavior and/or whose parents have made a genuine but unsuccessful attempt to address the problem, and kids who misbehave primarily as the result of their parent's/s' negligence. I fear that it's the latter category of parents who will threaten teachers (e.g. a spurious allegation of sex abuse would be enough to make a teacher's life a misery), and that the former category will end up being unfairly targeted.

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I don't support corporal punishment. I'm certainly no bleeding heart leftie, but studies have shown time and time again that the main effect of the cane is to teach pupils that imposing your will through physical violence and intimidation is the norm and acceptable. Many of the world's most sadistic and violent criminals can have their behaviour traced back to being on the receiving end of corporal punishment, either at school, in the home or both.

I think you will find they were victims of brutality rather than discipline. There is a huge difference and I feel this has led to confusion. Sadistic parents and teachers have used corporal punishment as an excuse to satisfy their bloodlust.

Any system of punishment is open to abuse, sanctions can be bullying and cause emotional scars just as deep as physical abuse.

The motive behind discipline is what is important, physical punishment is quick, effective and serves for most as a deterrent. It's purpose is to correct errant behaviour.

The lack of corporal punishment has led to a generation that disregards consequences, we did not seem to see a corresponding reduction in the sadistic and voilent criminals though.

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Bring back the cane, stops most of that misbehaviour. Fines.... pah!

It never did me any harm, but then again it did not change my behaviour much either. It merely teaches that for evry act there is a consequence.

I don't support corporal punishment. I'm certainly no bleeding heart leftie, but studies have shown time and time again that the main effect of the cane is to teach pupils that imposing your will through physical violence and intimidation is the norm and acceptable. Many of the world's most sadistic and violent criminals can have their behaviour traced back to being on the receiving end of corporal punishment, either at school, in the home or both.

As for fining parents, there needs to be a distinction made between children who have some underlying physiological or psychological cause for their behavior and/or whose parents have made a genuine but unsuccessful attempt to address the problem, and kids who misbehave primarily as the result of their parent's/s' negligence. I fear that it's the latter category of parents who will threaten teachers (e.g. a spurious allegation of sex abuse would be enough to make a teacher's life a misery), and that the former category will end up being unfairly targeted.

So, although I am not heavily for, or against corporal punishment in schools, I am heavily in favour of making the consequences be suitable in their nature. The type of kids that we are discussing will not react to being physically punished. Their parents as you rightly point out will complain, attack and use their access to free legal assistance to get their little cherrub back into the school with an apology, or have them 'fit-up' a teacher with a complaint.

The asnwer is simplly to make the consequence one that hits the whole family. The choice could be to have have them put into modern equivalent of the workhouse (assuming the unemployed benefit type), this would also mean that the benefits would have to be earned and would be paid straight to the workhouse. No ciggies, pizzas, etc. If working then no benefits, or tax credits and make direct wage deductions to pay for young chavvy to be taken care of during the day at a more specialised school.

All a bit far fetched perhaps, but a simplified format could devised. The answer being no benefits, no possessions, no freedom to have a negative impact upon others.

It used to be called behaving in a social manner, manners, knowing right from wrong, respect for self and others, and all the rest. Until standards throughout society are held in more esteem, rather than someone like me wittering on in this forum we will decline and disappear into the abyss.

It starts with our 'leaders'. Well you immediately see the flaw in that arguement. It is so, so sad!

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Guest AuntJess
It never did me any harm, but then again it did not change my behaviour much either. It merely teaches that for evry act there is a consequence.

So, although I am not heavily for, or against corporal punishment in schools, I am heavily in favour of making the consequences be suitable in their nature. The type of kids that we are discussing will not react to being physically punished. Their parents as you rightly point out will complain, attack and use their access to free legal assistance to get their little cherrub back into the school with an apology, or have them 'fit-up' a teacher with a complaint.

The asnwer is simplly to make the consequence one that hits the whole family. The choice could be to have have them put into modern equivalent of the workhouse (assuming the unemployed benefit type), this would also mean that the benefits would have to be earned and would be paid straight to the workhouse. No ciggies, pizzas, etc. If working then no benefits, or tax credits and make direct wage deductions to pay for young chavvy to be taken care of during the day at a more specialised school.

All a bit far fetched perhaps, but a simplified format could devised. The answer being no benefits, no possessions, no freedom to have a negative impact upon others.

It used to be called behaving in a social manner, manners, knowing right from wrong, respect for self and others, and all the rest. Until standards throughout society are held in more esteem, rather than someone like me wittering on in this forum we will decline and disappear into the abyss.

It starts with our 'leaders'. Well you immediately see the flaw in that arguement. It is so, so sad!

Overall it sounds pretty cool to me, and not unlike the very effective programmes used on troublesome youngsters in hostels, that was started a couple of decades ago. Itvwas based on the priciples of negative reinforcement...which is NOT punishment - as is erroneously assumed by some.

Mind you the "wrap them in cottonwool and give them a dummy" types have probably challenged it by now, as it contravenes their human rights. :rolleyes:

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Ministers are set to announce plans to fine parents if their child continually misbehaves at school.

Good or bad idea?

I remember some classes at school where the lessons were ruined, not by an inexperienced or "soft" teacher, but because there were one or two little sh1ts who were clearly the consequence of bad parenting.

So I think fining parents is a great idea. If you have a kid, it's your responsibility to make sure it doesn't cause havoc. Some parents seem to ignore that responsibility, like the way some irresponsible dog owners ignore their mutts when they crap on the pavement. I'm not talking about minor misdemeanours like chewing gum and the like, but if a pupil does something major - truants, swears at a teacher, assualts another child, whatever - then the parents should be fined. Teachers are there to educate our youngsters; parents are the ones responsible to teach kids about boundaries. Why should the education of the good kids suffer because of a handful of poor parents?

My children are, apparently, little darlings at school, but the eldest is being a 'little sh1t' at home. Can I fine her teacher for disruption to home life caused by boredom at school?

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A simpler mechanism is expulsion meaning expulsion.

At which point the law states the parents much procure suitable education for their children (ie. home schooling).

If this isn't done, then the parents can be prosecuted and children taken into care.

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My children are, apparently, little darlings at school, but the eldest is being a 'little sh1t' at home. Can I fine her teacher for disruption to home life caused by boredom at school?

Yes I know what you mean. The model pupil at school and terrible in the house. My daughter turned 13 and it has been WW3 ever since. I often think that the teachers encourage them to come home and challenge evrything. Also the teacher said it so it must be right / true / best / etc gets me when it is so obvious that it is not, or certainly from a parental point of view it is not.

She is now 16 and I am told that some point at around 22 she will become normal again..................... I cannot wait!!!

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I often think that the teachers encourage them to come home and challenge evrything.

That would suggest they teach them to think, rather than just how to pass exams.

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I was most fortunate to attend an excellent Grammar School many years ago.

Corporal Punishment was part and parcel of the regime of discipline.

Those who erred significantly, would be sent to the Head: for "Six of the best".

However, perhaps most feared of all was the senior chemistry master, Black Harry (Gives you some idea!), whose chosen weapon for discipline was a size 17 gym shoe! He was a very powerful man!

Perhaps one ignored value is the loss of face of a child, amongst their peer group: trouble makers and disruptive children, tend to be group "Leader Dogs" and fancy themselves enourmously! Being taken to the edge of tears from sharp non-injurious physical pain, collapses the credibility of the "Hardmen" rather rapidly!

Some years back I was attending the Old Boy's Reunion Dinner: our table was electic and interesting: sat around it were "Old Boys" who varied in age from 40 to 70. Now the 70 year old has entertained us earlier, passing round pictures of himself, changing sails, 220 feet up the mainmast of a Russian Square Rigger, in mid-Atlantic in Winter, which he had been crewing.

I asked a "Straw Poll" question: first "How many were caned by The Boot" (head): unanimous hand raising.

Next, "How many slippered by Black Harry"?

Again pretty unanimous.

Final question: "How many of you vandalise telephone boxes, beat up your wives, physically abuse your children?"

Strange that: not one hand was raised..........................

Having served some years back as a Secondary School Governor (Of a very troubled and from parent's perspective "Non-Desirable" school: which we sorted out and changed to Grant Maintained and parents queue up now, for their kids to attend), I believe this "School Discipline" problem is multi-faceted.

Yes, primarily it is a parental problem; however it is also a school problem, which has been created by Left Wing militant "teachers", Social Engineering experiments carried out by Do-Gooder Educationalists, and the result of education, per se, being used as a political football.

A few years back my local authority changed -again! - to become a Unitary Authority and thereby adopted responsibility for education. I was asked to assist with some minor consulting advice on trauncy.

I listened to what the officers told me and looked them straight in the eye.

"Do most of these traunt's parents live on benefits, by any chance?" I asked.

"Yes."

"Well, "I mused, "The 1948 Education Act made it an offence for parents to fail to ensure their children attend their designated school. However, you cannot fine them; they have no money other than benefit and this is set at "Survival Only" levels."

" Thus the one thing you can deprive them of is their liberty!"

"Bang 'em up!"

Currently, UK education wastes millions every year on truancy, damage to property, loss of teaching time and etc, caused by laissez fair parental attitudes.

My solution would be to create secure units, where parents were sentenced for a minimum of Two Weeks of "Hard Time": no TV, ciggies and etc and them working to clean and cook their own food and etc. The main purpose however would be to start a process of re-education of the parents, to make them realise how and why their kind's education was critically important for the kid's futures.

For me, the core realities of life's dynamics are ultimately simple: Carrot and Stick.

Today, we have a surfeit of Carrot: and no real Stick.

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Guest AuntJess
I was most fortunate to attend an excellent Grammar School many years ago.

Corporal Punishment was part and parcel of the regime of discipline.

Those who erred significantly, would be sent to the Head: for "Six of the best".

However, perhaps most feared of all was the senior chemistry master, Black Harry (Gives you some idea!), whose chosen weapon for discipline was a size 17 gym shoe! He was a very powerful man!

Perhaps one ignored value is the loss of face of a child, amongst their peer group: trouble makers and disruptive children, tend to be group "Leader Dogs" and fancy themselves enourmously! Being taken to the edge of tears from sharp non-injurious physical pain, collapses the credibility of the "Hardmen" rather rapidly!

Some years back I was attending the Old Boy's Reunion Dinner: our table was electic and interesting: sat around it were "Old Boys" who varied in age from 40 to 70. Now the 70 year old has entertained us earlier, passing round pictures of himself, changing sails, 220 feet up the mainmast of a Russian Square Rigger, in mid-Atlantic in Winter, which he had been crewing.

I asked a "Straw Poll" question: first "How many were caned by The Boot" (head): unanimous hand raising.

Next, "How many slippered by Black Harry"?

Again pretty unanimous.

Final question: "How many of you vandalise telephone boxes, beat up your wives, physically abuse your children?"

Strange that: not one hand was raised..........................

Having served some years back as a Secondary School Governor (Of a very troubled and from parent's perspective "Non-Desirable" school: which we sorted out and changed to Grant Maintained and parents queue up now, for their kids to attend), I believe this "School Discipline" problem is multi-faceted.

Yes, primarily it is a parental problem; however it is also a school problem, which has been created by Left Wing militant "teachers", Social Engineering experiments carried out by Do-Gooder Educationalists, and the result of education, per se, being used as a political football.

A few years back my local authority changed -again! - to become a Unitary Authority and thereby adopted responsibility for education. I was asked to assist with some minor consulting advice on trauncy.

I listened to what the officers told me and looked them straight in the eye.

"Do most of these traunt's parents live on benefits, by any chance?" I asked.

"Yes."

"Well, "I mused, "The 1948 Education Act made it an offence for parents to fail to ensure their children attend their designated school. However, you cannot fine them; they have no money other than benefit and this is set at "Survival Only" levels."

" Thus the one thing you can deprive them of is their liberty!"

"Bang 'em up!"

Currently, UK education wastes millions every year on truancy, damage to property, loss of teaching time and etc, caused by laissez fair parental attitudes.

My solution would be to create secure units, where parents were sentenced for a minimum of Two Weeks of "Hard Time": no TV, ciggies and etc and them working to clean and cook their own food and etc. The main purpose however would be to start a process of re-education of the parents, to make them realise how and why their kind's education was critically important for the kid's futures.

For me, the core realities of life's dynamics are ultimately simple: Carrot and Stick.

Today, we have a surfeit of Carrot: and no real Stick.

+1 :D All the Moral Development theorists have one main theme. You don't get complete MD in those folks who don't have a mix of love and discipline. One without t'other and you have problems.

I went to a similar Grammar school. ^_^

The 'secure units for parents' idea has been tried and tested on actual juveniles. In these centres they don't get punished, but are compelled to cooperate and work for tokens, which 'buy' them what we would find essential, but which are 'privileges' to them.

They start off with basic food rations, nothing fancy. Nutritious but not exciting. Bedrooms spartan. No radio tv or record players. Single blanket on bed etc.

Tokens buy them food treats - pizzas, trifles etc. also radio time/ tv time/ record time and more comfort...like an extra pillow etc.. So this negative reinforcement isn't about punishment ...or reward per se: just the improvement of the situation. Removal of a 'bad' situation by making the correct response.

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That would suggest they teach them to think, rather than just how to pass exams.

My problems stem from my children being taught how to pass exams, or rather having to do the same stuff over and over again because some of her classmates don't get it.

Maths/Numeracy is her favourite subject, and she was able to pass the KS1 level three paper a year before she was 'expected' to reach only level two (she was in a mixed age group class at the time).

We could sit down with her at home and do extra stuff, but methods have changed since we were at school (you should see how they do addition!!!!) and we are only going to store up more boredom for the future.

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My problems stem from my children being taught how to pass exams, or rather having to do the same stuff over and over again because some of her classmates don't get it.

Maths/Numeracy is her favourite subject, and she was able to pass the KS1 level three paper a year before she was 'expected' to reach only level two (she was in a mixed age group class at the time).

We could sit down with her at home and do extra stuff, but methods have changed since we were at school (you should see how they do addition!!!!) and we are only going to store up more boredom for the future.

+1

Absolutely!

What is missing is logic: and methodology.

I had the privilege of attending a classics school and Grecian Logic was part of the bag.

In every aspect of maths we had to demonstrate how and why we would use which method to prove that our approach was correct.

Even to the point of adding Q.E.D. at the end of each question.

Today it is all taught (If one can use that word!) by simple rote.

The kids are being programmed: rather than educated.

And we know what a computer without software is: useless.

No one has been taught arithmetic proportion for many years: calculators are fine if they have the engineered-in scope on-chip for percentage calculations in both directions.

But useless, however, for working out such as percentage on percentage: and thus standard margins and etc.

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it is not up to teachers to disapline children.

that should be done in the home by parents.

the problem is that some people are not fit to be parents.

i blame the parents........ should they be fined? I don't think this would work in practice.

send them on a parenting course or take the kids off them :huh:

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Immediate exclusion should be an option for all badly behaved kids. I support a voucher system that all parents have to use to educate their kids. If little Johnny consistently can't sit still but has an interest in say, car mechanics, he can go to a school that teaches that.

Forcing kids to sit through dull lessons for years and allow them to leave with few watered-down bits of paper if any is cruel and illogical as is paying teachers £30k to do crowd control - a nightclub bouncer could mind the child-prison cheaply and effectively. And that's wat schools are - dumbed-down child prisons.

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