Should Cannabis Be Legalized?

[Cinnamon]

"All we're doing here is to discuss the price and purity of the stuff"

Nope!

We were discussing whether or not cannabis should be de-criminalised

But it's already decriminalised to all intents and purposes, no-one is saved, it cheap and plentiful and your 8-year old can get hold of it. In other words, criminalisation has failed to prevent the supply chain, it just upped the price by adding a justice lottery and giving plod yet another box-ticking opportunity.

Get this: everyone who wants to take drugs, can take them and will do so already. No-one is in the slightest intimidated by the law, not in the soft UK, not in the harsh Iran. People are unfortunately very stupid here and it's happening all over the world in this pattern across all cultures.

So, yes, we're discussing price and purity and nothing else, because as I pointed out, the drugs supply network and it's permeation of society is on par with power suppliers almost, most marketing guys would *love* to have what the mafias have here.

So, whatever prohibition attempted to prevent, it failed comprehensively and we're fairly much @ rockbottom, Cannabis is as illegal as can be (14 years jail) and making it even more illegal is not really a winning move.

In fact, prohibition is as good as not having any regulation or laws at all, because unless you can enforce them, they are meaningless (also compare King Canute and the tide)

So given our limited resources, full jails, clogged up courts and stretched police farce, what do you think you can do to improve on the current free-4-all situation?

[Financial Hack]

Having seen a few teenagers really messed up by skunk, I would dispute that. I don't know if it should be legal or not, I don't really know enough about it to comment, but whatever I do think teens should be protected from it.

I think it works differently in the teen brain or something, but I have seen extreme and I really mean extreme paranoia and delusions in teens using the stuff.

I won't allow it, or any one who uses it in my home.

Potentially an argument for legalisation. An illegal drug dealer probably doesn't care how old his clients are. Wheras if it's regulated with heavy fines you'd find shop vendors are far less likely to sell it to people under age.

[Blue Warwick]

Well came back again to see what sad case drugs users are still bleating on about. Anyone turned themselves in as a criminal yet? No? Shame, not got the balls to stand up and say what your saying in a court of law. See how much support you get there losers.

Well, you seem to know a lot about me and others on this forum. My drug addled brain (and, apart from caffiene I rarely use any form of mind altering substance, though have occasionally used various things in the past) has managed to get me a Ph.D from a world class institution (whilst on 2 full scholarships), academic prizes galor and a series of fellowships at said level of institution, before leaving for greener pastures and heading technical development at a couple of companies.

I am clearly the world's biggest loser. Drugs have ruined my life.

Many of my peers have done much more than I did. Of my closest friends, most are now at the top of their academic careers, some own massively profitable companies (except for the guy with the Russian hedge fund!!!). Clearly, their lives have been ruined too.

Well you said it "you are a loser". A waste of skin. So are all users whether they are rich or poor. If loads of academics are spaced out all the time it does explain all the academic sh$t we keep being delivered by people staring up the a Holes and telling us about how interesting it is!

Ha!, You're dead funny you! I'm beginning to think that this is obviously a setup...(or that could be my Paranoid, Weed-Addled Mind)...I don't believe I actually stated that Weed makes me feel like $h1t, if it did, I obviously wouldn't do it in the first place, (see my paragraph on addictive personalities, one of which I don't posses)...I think the reason the Country is in the state it is in has nothing to do with what well educated people CHOOSE to do in their own time, in the privacy of their own homes, but more to do with the way in which the Country is being raped on a daily basis by narrow-minded @r$eholes like yourself...I don't know why you think that you have any kind of say in what people choose to do in their lives, you're not GOD, (if he existed, which he didn't...oh no, am I going to open another can of narrow-minded worms here).

I pay my Taxes to Society, I work Full-Time, I pay my National Insurance Contributions, I pay 15% over the odds for every single thing that I buy bar food and if I want to drive to my Full-Time Job I'll feel good knowing that 70% of my Tank is Fuel Duty and not actual Fuel...the ONLY thing I don't pay Tax on is Weed! If "They" chose to legalise it, I would probably give it up as I'd refuse to pay Tax on it...

I assume that you're some kind of Monk or D1ckHe@d who doesn't eat or drink ANYTHING which could alter your mental state in any way, shape or form and this is what makes you believe that you can take some kind of Moral High Ground.....Yes, you are a D1ckHe@d...I'm laughing at you!...I MUST be stoned!...Nope, you're just dead funny!

I am funny and you are brain dead if you think drugs are acceptable. your mind has warped and is now no use for reasoning. Perhaps more drugs will help make everything clear. Why not take lots all at once and save the taxpayer all the money that we will have to spend on you when the illnesses set in from your drug taking. Laughing at you a hole!

[Leroast]

The government's position on cannabis being an "important causal factor" in mental illness is based on the evidence presented by studies like that of Van Os from the University of Maastricht which grabbed uk tabloid headlines several years ago when published.

"I'm not convinced," says Les Iversen, professor of pharmacology at the University of Oxford and a member of the UK Home Office's Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs. He points out that epidemiological studies are notoriously bad at proving cause and effect, in part because it is hard to identify all the confounding factors. Scientists are particularly wary of such research when the conclusions are based on small statistical differences - as in this case. In the New Zealand study, the number of people who had smoked dope on three occasions by the age of 15 was just 29, and only three went on to develop psychosis. "I can't help thinking that the conclusion is rather thin," says Iversen. "It makes you wonder. If they found another confounder, where would that leave them?" Van Os himself admits that his study does not eliminate all the confounding factors.

Iversen also points out problems with how psychosis is defined in each study. Van Os's results, for example, seem to show that psychosis is relatively common in cannabis smokers. But he chose a very broad definition - a single psychotic symptom, such as hearing voices or a paranoid belief. That's not the same as schizophrenia. About 20 per cent of the general population live with these symptoms: only 1 in 20 of them ever require treatment.

Iversen isn't the only doubter. Last year John Macleod of the University of Birmingham, UK, carried out a systematic review of the 16 high-quality long-term studies that have looked at cannabis and mental health and concluded that there was "no strong evidence" of a link with psychosis (The Lancet, vol 363, p 1579). "I'm not saying there is no causal association, but at the moment, by the conventional standards of epidemiology, the evidence is not particularly strong," he says.

There are other reasons to doubt the reality of a link. If it were genuine, schizophrenia should be becoming more common as teenage cannabis consumption goes up. But it isn't. In 2003 researchers at the University of New South Wales in Sydney found that, despite a steep rise in cannabis use among Australian teenagers over the past 30 years, there had been no rise in the prevalence of schizophrenia.

It seems the question of whether cannabis use can indeed lead to schizophrenia will be unresolved for some time yet. One research avenue that may shed further light on the matter is to look at whether genes are involved. One of the members of Cannon's group, Avsahlom Caspi of King's College London, is an authority on gene-environment interactions. A couple of years ago he made a splash by showing that a genetic predisposition to depression could interact with a traumatic experience such as bereavement to trigger the illness (New Scientist, 26 July 2003, p 15). "We thought, let's put this model to work on cannabis and psychosis," says Cannon.

She and her colleagues reanalysed the data from the New Zealand study, this time adding in another variable - genetic predisposition to schizophrenia. The gene they investigated, called COMT, encodes an enzyme (catechol-O-methyl transferase) that breaks down a signalling chemical in the brain called dopamine. COMT comes in two forms, one of which is marginally more common in people with schizophrenia and is thought to be a risk factor for the disease.

The results were crystal clear. The team found that in people with two copies of the "normal" version of COMT, smoking cannabis had little effect on their mental health. In people with one normal and one "bad" form of the gene, smoking cannabis slightly increased their risk of psychosis. But for people with two copies of the bad gene, cannabis spelled trouble: smoking it as a teenager increased their likelihood of developing psychosis by a factor of 10. The results have not yet been published, and Cannon warns that they need replicating, but even so she says "this is a very large effect, similar to the size of smoking and lung cancer. This is a very significant finding."

Link

[manbearpig]

There is no need for legalisation. Its easier and quicker to get than a pizza in Nottingham. Delivered to your door in less than 20 minutes!

It not like coke that gets cut and cut, so there are no issues with basic safety.

Now decriminalization for the growth of a small amount of plants may be a good idea, to encourage home growing, and take some business away from the dealers.

[leveller]

good get pi$$ed and insert it where your opinions come from!

Stupid bigot.

[codeine]

I am funny and you are brain dead if you think drugs are acceptable. your mind has warped and is now no use for reasoning. Perhaps more drugs will help make everything clear. Why not take lots all at once and save the taxpayer all the money that we will have to spend on you when the illnesses set in from your drug taking. Laughing at you a hole!

Someone needs a few Diazepam tablets

[Guest anorthosite]

Well came back again to see what sad case drugs users are still bleating on about. Anyone turned themselves in as a criminal yet? No? Shame, not got the balls to stand up and say what your saying in a court of law. See how much support you get there losers.

Well you said it "you are a loser". A waste of skin. So are all users whether they are rich or poor. If loads of academics are spaced out all the time it does explain all the academic sh$t we keep being delivered by people staring up the a Holes and telling us about how interesting it is!

I am funny and you are brain dead if you think drugs are acceptable. your mind has warped and is now no use for reasoning. Perhaps more drugs will help make everything clear. Why not take lots all at once and save the taxpayer all the money that we will have to spend on you when the illnesses set in from your drug taking. Laughing at you a hole!

Good heavens, someone has turned this into a slanging match! Well, there's always one, isn't there

[Financial Hack]

Now decriminalization for the growth of a small amount of plants may be a good idea, to encourage home growing, and take some business away from the dealers.

The reason that doesn't happen is simple. Tax.

Marijuana is one of the fastest growing plants in the world. It's realitively easy to grown on a windowsil or in a greenhouse, and that's why the Govt won't legalise it. It would just be a cottage industry. People can easily grow enough for personal use in their own home, so the taxman doesn't get anything out of it.

Alcohol requires a lot of space to make and tobacco requires complex treatment processes.

By comparision I managed to grow 5 big plants on my windowsil when I was at uni with very little effort, and the crop from them lasted me for months. All you need to do is cut the flowerheads when it's ready and hang it up to dry.

The taxman gets nothing out of it, so the the Govt has no desire to attract people away from its revenue generating legal substances.

[Blue Warwick]

Good heavens, someone has turned this into a slanging match! Well, there's always one, isn't there

Yes One has to disagree with the illegal.

Anyway you should know you D*ck you always try to get race raised in every topic.

Beat you this time A Hole!!!

[John51]

Great stuff, we have a p!sshead lecturing us on the morality of drugs. lol

Try looking through Blue Warwicks posts, he seems to get 'tired and emotional' as the evening wears on.

[Blue Warwick]

Great stuff, we have a p!sshead lecturing us on the morality of drugs. lol

Try looking through Blue Warwicks posts, he seems to get 'tired and emotional' as the evening wears on.

Tired and emotional? No alcohol required and none taken. Just making a point to some dick that never reads and always wants to raise race in every post he submits.

You on the other-hand are an as shole any time of day.

Illegal = Illegal. It cannot be argued with. You amy aswell say murder is acceptable as some think it is okay. Perhaps it would be for druggies and their supporters?

Drugs are never safe and therefore cannabis is not and cannot be legalised.

[Guest X-QUORK]

Tired and emotional? No alcohol required and none taken. Just making a point to some dick that never reads and always wants to raise race in every post he submits.

You on the other-hand are an as shole any time of day.

Illegal = Illegal. It cannot be argued with. You amy aswell say murder is acceptable as some think it is okay. Perhaps it would be for druggies and their supporters?

Drugs are never safe and therefore cannabis is not and cannot be legalised.

BW, you do yourself no favours by throwing so many insults around. Folks will take much more notice if you attack the subject, not the man.

[f00]

an excerpt from the BBC Radio 4 ethical debating programme hosted by Michael Burke.

it's a very good debate

Download Moral Maze - cannabis (rapidshare.com)

[Financial Hack]

Illegal = Illegal. It cannot be argued with. You amy aswell say murder is acceptable as some think it is okay. Perhaps it would be for druggies and their supporters?

Human laws aren't absolute, and they are not an indicator of morality in most cases.

The are some countries where it is illegal for women to associate with men they are not related to. In some countries it is illegal for people to protest against the government. In some countries it is illegal to speak out against religion.

Just because something is illegal, does not mean it is wrong. It often simply indicates that it goes against the state's will, and therefore needs to be supressed.

[Blue Warwick]

BW, you do yourself no favours by throwing so many insults around. Folks will take much more notice if you attack the subject, not the man.

Just felt the need to fight fire with fire. I do not like their tone so a few well chosen insults might get something accross. As I hopeyou know I am usually quite reasonable.

When it comes to drugs I have put forward my views and as with many topics there are some that attack in a personal way, this time they got it back. The ambivolence and lack of care and insight is appauling, but not surprising.

I bet none of them has ever come accross a family torn apart by drugs. Have any of them seen people dying of Aids because of injecting drugs. Have they seen instances of children turning on parents and killing the closest relationship that exists. And before anyone starts saying "Oh but it is only cannabis" I must say that it is a gateway drug, no matter what all the liberals and the 'educated classes' state. It is! By that it obviously is not everyone, but if it leads down that road for some then it is harmful and cannot be legalised. I also know that the use of it can become so habitual that it is effectively an addiction. I know one person who cannot go a day without and actually it is probably more like a few hours without. He struggles to hold down a job, but how long for is questionable. He cannot see what is happening, but that is so true with many addicts. They never choose to be an addict, it just happens!

Yes there are all the arguements about the harmfulness of cannabis and the converse of it being useful in alleviating certain symptoms of disease. where it can be used positively then I am fine with it being prescribed, but that is not legalising it open distribution and use.

At the end of the day the harm that it does with use will become evident with the susceptible in later life. Unfortunately they do not know that it is coming. Neither do their families and friends. The harm will be done. Those that get away with it will not care. Those that do not move on to harder drugs, or develop an addiction will not care, but those people picking up the pieces do. It is harmful to them.

I have seen and experienced the above. I have also seen the terrible effects of alcohol abuse and addiction. Drugs are dangerous and none can be taken lightly. Therefore I take a very strong view on cannabis as I see it as a gateway drug.

I know that I will get the usual rubbish fired back about freedoms and liberties, but I strongly believe that in the case of these drugs there has to be a black and white response Illegal = Illegal and long may it stay that way.

for those on here that are users, I honestly hope that you are all unharmed by using drugs. I hope that you never suffer the awful effect that drugs can have on you as a friend, or family member. i hope that if you are prosecuted you do not complain, but take your punishment with quiet resignation.

[voidal]

Just felt the need to fight fire with fire. I do not like their tone so a few well chosen insults might get something accross. As I hopeyou know I am usually quite reasonable.

When it comes to drugs I have put forward my views and as with many topics there are some that attack in a personal way, this time they got it back. The ambivolence and lack of care and insight is appauling, but not surprising.

I bet none of them has ever come accross a family torn apart by drugs. Have any of them seen people dying of Aids because of injecting drugs. Have they seen instances of children turning on parents and killing the closest relationship that exists. And before anyone starts saying "Oh but it is only cannabis" I must say that it is a gateway drug, no matter what all the liberals and the 'educated classes' state. It is! By that it obviously is not everyone, but if it leads down that road for some then it is harmful and cannot be legalised. I also know that the use of it can become so habitual that it is effectively an addiction. I know one person who cannot go a day without and actually it is probably more like a few hours without. He struggles to hold down a job, but how long for is questionable. He cannot see what is happening, but that is so true with many addicts. They never choose to be an addict, it just happens!

Yes there are all the arguements about the harmfulness of cannabis and the converse of it being useful in alleviating certain symptoms of disease. where it can be used positively then I am fine with it being prescribed, but that is not legalising it open distribution and use.

At the end of the day the harm that it does with use will become evident with the susceptible in later life. Unfortunately they do not know that it is coming. Neither do their families and friends. The harm will be done. Those that get away with it will not care. Those that do not move on to harder drugs, or develop an addiction will not care, but those people picking up the pieces do. It is harmful to them.

I have seen and experienced the above. I have also seen the terrible effects of alcohol abuse and addiction. Drugs are dangerous and none can be taken lightly. Therefore I take a very strong view on cannabis as I see it as a gateway drug.

I know that I will get the usual rubbish fired back about freedoms and liberties, but I strongly believe that in the case of these drugs there has to be a black and white response Illegal = Illegal and long may it stay that way.

for those on here that are users, I honestly hope that you are all unharmed by using drugs. I hope that you never suffer the awful effect that drugs can have on you as a friend, or family member. i hope that if you are prosecuted you do not complain, but take your punishment with quiet resignation.

Friend - Dead

Friend - Nutter

The dead friend didnt do the 'drugs', just the alcohol. The nutter played with drugs to adjust his mood, -- constantly.

The 'nutter' friend gave the alcohol friend who didn't 'do drugs' a bit of heroin, after all, it doesnt do any harm, especially if pure. Result - he died.

Now I'm sure pissed people fall over, bang their heads and die, but drugs can have a string in their tail.

I'm not offering a moral on this one. I am old enough and out of any drug looped culture not for it t matter any more.

There are risks with everything..

Cannabis, IS a gateway drug in its illegal form, it fuels excitement, rebeliiousness blah blah. And I took harder drugs.

Some like me wouldnt.

Just take care please. You are not so clever if you get it wrong.

[Blue Warwick]

Friend - Dead

Friend - Nutter

The dead friend didnt do the 'drugs', just the alcohol. The nutter played with drugs to adjust his mood, -- constantly.

The 'nutter' friend gave the alcohol friend who didn't 'do drugs' a bit of heroin, after all, it doesnt do any harm, especially if pure. Result - he died.

Now I'm sure pissed people fall over, bang their heads and die, but drugs can have a string in their tail.

I'm not offering a moral on this one. I am old enough and out of any drug looped culture not for it t matter any more.

There are risks with everything..

Cannabis, IS a gateway drug in its illegal form, it fuels excitement, rebeliiousness blah blah. And I took harder drugs.

Some like me wouldnt.

Just take care please. You are not so clever if you get it wrong.

Thanks for your contribution and I am sorry that you have had the experiences above. If others do not experience that they should be grateful and pray that it is an experience that never befalls them. As you say the issue is that you do naot always see it coming and when it does it is too late.

[voidal]

Thanks for your contribution and I am sorry that you have had the experiences above. If others do not experience that they should be grateful and pray that it is an experience that never befalls them. As you say the issue is that you do naot always see it coming and when it does it is too late.

Those that dont deserve it - can die.

And who deserves to eliminate themselves from the evolutionary tree, survival of the fittest, because of a moment of weakness?

Yeah, I've seen a real tw*t die from drugs. He was horrible. He wasn't a nice person. But he would have grown up. I Bet his parents loved him.

Lets not over analyse this one. Thanks for your sensitive contribution though.

[three pint princess]

Deaths from cannabis?

Is it regarded as a gateway drug due to it being illegal and buying it from a drug dealer

If it was 'legalized' would that lower the gateway affect?

[Guest X-QUORK]

I'm pro-legalisation, but that doesn't mean I'm unaware of the dangers of taking drugs, just as there are dangers in many parts of life, including the legal drugs.

One simply has to ask, after 40 or so years, are the police winning in the war on drugs?

[Blue Warwick]

I'm pro-legalisation, but that doesn't mean I'm unaware of the dangers of taking drugs, just as there are dangers in many parts of life, including the legal drugs.

One simply has to ask, after 40 or so years, are the police winning in the war on drugs?

a simple question and the answer is no, but the reasons why as you obviously appreciate are a lot more complicated. The more fundamental answer would be that just because it may be a difficult battle it does not make the war any the less worthy.

[John51]

As I hopeyou know I am usually quite reasonable.

I did notice that when looking through your posts but when it comes to the subject of cannabis, your reason seems to take a back seat to emotion but hey, look whose talking.

for those on here that are users, I honestly hope that you are all unharmed by using drugs. I hope that you never suffer the awful effect that drugs can have on you as a friend, or family member. i hope that if you are prosecuted you do not complain, but take your punishment with quiet resignation.

Thanks for that, I'm pragmatic enough to know that life is rarely fair. I've got to get caught twice to get an £80 fine and so far so good. I know of 2 guys that liked the pop enough to have marital problems and the deal struck was ok no more booze but never call me on the pot smoking. Both relationships doing well and the guys are thriving since they stopped drinking.

In the rest of your post, you fail to make a distinction between the dangers of cannabis and the dangers of prohibition. At first glance it does seem like many of societies ills can be blamed soley on recreational drugs but if you look at prohibition as a separate entity you just might come to the same view that many long term law makers and law enforcers have already come to.

Where prohibition hurts:

No junkie would share a needle if there was a new one there waiting to be opened.

People will usually buy whatever is available from their local dealer. As a social experiment, ask people that you know drink vodka if they want to buy some cheap. When they ask what brand, tell them it's home made but much cheaper than the shops. Odds on that they won't be interested, they would rather pay a premium and get vodka of a trusted purity. So would the users of cannabis but they have to take a chance on the stuff not being laced with fibreglass or other rubbish.

Soapbar is now so bad that there is a growing number of potheads that simply refuse to touch it but alas there are many more that will take it if that's all there is. An American was saying how the owner of a small town strip joint used to spray Raid on his stock of cannabis to prevent mould and 30 years later some of his customers were getting weird cancers. That doesn't happen with weed sold in Dutch coffee shops. As one MSE member said, water would be dangerous if it was criminals in charge of the supply and distribution of it.

What would happen if El Gordo decided to really stuff us up and prohibited alcohol as a swansong? He is guided by a moral light after all and alcohol is a dangerous drug. The wide boys could sell loads of home made vodka then, no shortage of customers. Then would come the turf wars and it would be Al Capone v Elliot Ness all over again. Except that we already have the turf wars and there's only one thing that is ever going to stop them. Why is it that people can see the danger of prohibition re. alcohol but not when applied to other substances?

The dangers of cannabis:

Yes there are some and although individual cases can make grim reading, across the board there isn't much happening. For all the talk of 'up to 40% more chance of developing schizophrenia' the rates have remained stable at about 1% of adult population despte ever growing consumption but yes I can see that some could do with having a watchful eye kept on them.

A few years ago there was a cannabis drought of epic proportions due a combination of factors and it was a long long drought. It blew away the myth of non dependancy as many of the 'it's not addictive' brigade were on their hands and knees searching the carpet for stray bits of weed and calling everyone they knew on the off chance of scoring a deal.

Here's the kicker though, people like yourself never knew about it unless told, there was nothing for you to notice. The consumption of cannabis went down by at the very least 50% for over a year and it made not one scrap of difference to your life. When the drought was over consumption went back up and the increase in usage didn't affect you either. If cannabis was as dangerous as some like to claim, surely there would be signs visible to non potheads due to the rapid fluctuation in consumption? Maybe there are slow burning problems yet to surface akin to tobacco problems but we'll have to wait and see. It sure ain't going to be 40,000 dead a year like we get now from the coffin nails is it?

We are both interested in reducing the harm caused by drugs. You believe that prohibition is the best way to do that and I believe that prohibition is the most harmful way to handle the problem.

[General Melchett]

Hey man, like who cares man?

Stop buggin' me with this shit, and chill.

[Prescience]

Was reported Thursday that Britain is now the European leader in cocaine addiction: over 1 million regular users it is suggested.

And of course, like all other "Harmless" recreational drugs, it does no harm and should be legalised and etc.

And of course, interview a coke head and you would invariably be told "Nawh! I can take it or leave it! Bit of harmless fun for the weekend!"

"Addicted? What me? never in a lillion years, Mate!"

"Can't lend me a few quid can you? I desperately need some, well uh, uh, turnips?"

"My nose? What the bits which are missing? Well, I was born that way probably: it's got nothing whatsoever to do with the tons of sh1t I've snorted up my nostrils!"