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Home Education

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8093796.stm

<Tin Hat>

Is this article suggesting that home education is some form of peadophile plot? :blink:

Or what?

Or maybe you should send your children to the local Stasi correction centre to be politically re-educated? :ph34r:

</Tin Hat>

I went through state education in UK, and a good friend of mine went through "state education" in Poland in 1960/70s.

Any comments?

I think it's weird! Are these home education people the new "fox hunters"/ "smokers"?

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Any comments?

I think it's weird! Are these home education people the new "fox hunters"/ "smokers"?

The state certainly doesn't like home educators. The only positive thing I can see about state education is the interaction children get with large numbers of their peers, but surely this is achievable in other ways? Given the poor quality of most state education, I would rather home school (or similar) my own children.

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Guest eight
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8093796.stm

Any comments?

I think it's weird! Are these home education people the new "fox hunters"/ "smokers"?

Looks that way. It's about time the NSPCC were told where to shove their interfering snouts. If anybody has an unhealthy interest in other people's children, it's them.

eight

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I was surprised by the news report as well but it did make me wonder on the issue of home education, in general.

Do the 'educators' have to prove competency? Not only do I worry that a child does not get to learn necessary social skills but I worry that the parent who is teaching them is simply not intelligent enough to do the job. Having worked in the general area there is one thing for sure - nothing is as valuable as a good teacher. The reverse is also true - nothing is more destructive than a bad teacher.

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Hmmm.

Apart from the single line:

But the government has also been concerned that home education could be a cover for abuse.

it is a fairly balanced article. But I'm not reassured. As soon as the government start looking at something then you get guidelines, targets, and form-filling which will put home-educators off making this huge and selfless investment in their own children.

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Guest absolutezero
I was surprised by the news report as well but it did make me wonder on the issue of home education, in general.

Do the 'educators' have to prove competency? Not only do I worry that a child does not get to learn necessary social skills but I worry that the parent who is teaching them is simply not intelligent enough to do the job. Having worked in the general area there is one thing for sure - nothing is as valuable as a good teacher. The reverse is also true - nothing is more destructive than a bad teacher.

To home school a child you don't have to be competent or qualified in any way.

I do think the tone of the news reports is that HOME SCHOOLING IS ONLY DONE BY PAEDOS. Usual sensationalist nonsense.

I'm a secondary school teacher and have noticed that when we get home schooled kids appearing at school (maybe after parent can no longer do it) the kids are a bit "weird" and socially maladjusted. They have trouble interacting with the other kids.

Can't say I'm a fan of home schooling but I'm not a fan of the NewLabour social conditioning centres schools have become. I came into this job to teach, not be a social worker or shrink.

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I was surprised by the news report as well but it did make me wonder on the issue of home education, in general.

Do the 'educators' have to prove competency? Not only do I worry that a child does not get to learn necessary social skills but I worry that the parent who is teaching them is simply not intelligent enough to do the job. Having worked in the general area there is one thing for sure - nothing is as valuable as a good teacher. The reverse is also true - nothing is more destructive than a bad teacher.

Home educators do not isolate their children from all other children. Tell me, when you were at school did you have any friends to play with when you got home? Did you only ever play with children who went to your school? Home educators often form networks with other home educators in order to help educate their children, they don't all lock themselves away at home. We don't home educate but we know some that do and their children are very well adjusted and socialised.

This smacks of yet more Government interference. Bureaucracy is like a cancer.

Bring on State failure.

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I'm a secondary school teacher and have noticed that when we get home schooled kids appearing at school (maybe after parent can no longer do it) the kids are a bit "weird" and socially maladjusted. They have trouble interacting with the other kids.

Perhaps because the other kids are somewhat maladjusted?

Edited by youthoftoday

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OK, I have a vested interest here in that I did educate my kids at home for some of their primary schooling. I had NO contact WHATSOEVER from the local authority during this 4 years; so a lot of abuse COULD have been going on.

The local school had gone downhill fast after a change of head teacher, and a lot of problems had started emerging.

The kids all decided to try secondary school, and stayed there - it removed a lot of hassle, as my attitude was always " You don't HAVE to go to school - but you can't just not go in because you don't feel like it. You have to stop at a sensibole point like half-term or end of term, and you probably won't be able to go back to this school if you change your mind again"

Moan, grumble, "OK we'll go". But it was always their choice.

Two have now graduated & the third is still at Uni, so obviously no long-term harm. They lost something, gained something.

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I think profesionals and authorities have learned one lesson at least from the baby P case. That if parents do the unimaginable to their own children, it is the police, dotors, teachers, social workers and professionals who will be get the real punishment. Understandably the reaction will be a feeling of insecurity and the perceived need to know everything that goes on in every home. Society has developed a habit of granting the criminal forgiveness and rehabilitation, whislt re-attributing blame to professionals and carers.

The unfortunate truth is carers and professionals cannot prevent the determindly evil from carrying out unimaginable (for most of us thankfully) acts. In this case the educators are obviously pondering who will get the blame if a set of deviant parents use their own children in child porn/abuse ring under the cover of home education. I can well imagine the Sun headlines if this were to happen and the witch-hunt against the education establishment "responsible". It is a sad indictment on society that these things happen. It is even sadder that the blame and punishment is so mis-directed that it so distorts the risk perceptions of professional bodies.

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I was surprised by the news report as well but it did make me wonder on the issue of home education, in general.

Do the 'educators' have to prove competency? Not only do I worry that a child does not get to learn necessary social skills but I worry that the parent who is teaching them is simply not intelligent enough to do the job. Having worked in the general area there is one thing for sure - nothing is as valuable as a good teacher. The reverse is also true - nothing is more destructive than a bad teacher.

My experience of school was that good teachers were very few and far between. They do exist, but they are significantly less than 50% in my experience, and I suspect, as teaching has become even less respectable, the situation is worse now than when I went through school. Great teachers, I had 3. One when I was 11 who unfortuantely left after only a few months as his kidneys failed, and then 2 in my final year of high school. Oh how I wish I'd had more like these. Most of the rest actively discouraged learning one way or the other. Inquisitiveness gets battered out of most kids in primary school. My education only took off once I was out of the primary and secondary school system and was left to my own devices i.e. university.

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OK, I have a vested interest here in that I did educate my kids at home for some of their primary schooling. I had NO contact WHATSOEVER from the local authority during this 4 years; so a lot of abuse COULD have been going on.

The local school had gone downhill fast after a change of head teacher, and a lot of problems had started emerging.

The kids all decided to try secondary school, and stayed there - it removed a lot of hassle, as my attitude was always " You don't HAVE to go to school - but you can't just not go in because you don't feel like it. You have to stop at a sensibole point like half-term or end of term, and you probably won't be able to go back to this school if you change your mind again"

Moan, grumble, "OK we'll go". But it was always their choice.

Two have now graduated & the third is still at Uni, so obviously no long-term harm. They lost something, gained something.

Good on you. Glad it worked out well. I don't have any intention of home-schooling but I'm acutely aware that traditional schooling is failing staggering numbers of children and if I felt that a normal school wasn't working out for my children, I'd have no problem looking at alternative education. I really like the Steiner School ethos, but it's too expensive. Albeit not as expensive as some private schools.

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Guest Steve Cook
The state certainly doesn't like home educators. The only positive thing I can see about state education is the interaction children get with large numbers of their peers, but surely this is achievable in other ways? Given the poor quality of most state education, I would rather home school (or similar) my own children.

The state doesn't like anything that people choose to do that might reduce their infantilising dependency on the state.

Don't misunderstand me. I an no rabid state-hating loony like injin et al. Primarily because there would be no point. It would be like hating the fact that the tide comes in. It will still come in, regardless.

Nevertheless, I do have an instinctive mistrust of the state when it becomes involved in our lives in a way that is not directly related to protecting us from the criminal activities of others or providing us with the essential services of life.

The truth is, the state's days are numbered, at least in the massive, complex form it has taken over recent decades. This is because of a growing lack of energy and other resources to hold the centre up. It won't happen overnight or even in the lifetime of some of the older members of this forum. But, a collapse at the centre is eventually coming. The state knows this and is getting twitchy.

The state is preparing for what is coming. They are putting in place anti-libertarian structures and processes that will help them to hold onto their power. Such measure will fail in the end. But, it could be many decades before that total failure finally occurs. In the meantime, things are just going to get less and less pleasant for the average citizen.

But, don't think that state failure will herald a new age of free men. It wont. Instead it will usher in a repeat of earlier times. Your lives will be controlled by your very own local gangster/warlord/squire (delete according to preference of description).

So, for the average peasant, the demise of the state, whilst removing some of the more deadening and soul crushing restrictions on our actions, will be replaced by something much more brutal in all likelihood.

Edited by Steve Cook

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The state doesn't like anything that people choose to do that might reduce their infantilising dependency on the state.

Don't misunderstand me. I an no rabid state-hating loony like injin et al. Primarily because there would be no point. It would be like hating the fact that the tide comes in. It will still come in, regardless.

Nope.

"The state" are merely people choosing to act of their own free will.

They don't have to do what they do, they could all get real jobs or therapy or something. They don't. They actively choose evil. The state is not a force of nature.

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I'm a secondary school teacher and have noticed that when we get home schooled kids appearing at school (maybe after parent can no longer do it) the kids are a bit "weird" and socially maladjusted.
Perhaps because the other kids are somewhat maladjusted?

Yes perhaps indeed...

I home educated (not home schooled), all 3 of my children, after they finished primary school. It was their choice, and always was.

They now all attend further education via college or university, and enjoy their studies there.

I have mixed with many home educated famililies, and I have found their chlidren to be free thinkers, who have enjoyed learning, and are socially well adjusted to various age groups. But maybe within the contraints of some large state educational institutes, this may be considered by some as "weird"?

I have enjoyed the freedom of letting my children be home educated autonomously, with no government intervention. A method that has worked well for us, and a method that has well prepared them for adult learning. I think it is a shame, if government meddling denies the right of parents to educate their own child, according to each individual childs needs and interests.

Unfortuantely, as can be illustrated by eg how houses can be priced so much higher according to some "school catchment areas", state schooling can be, but also can not be, the ideal solution for many.

Imo this is just another case of state control being introduced to undermine individual's right to freedom of choice.

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Guest Steve Cook
Nope.

"The state" are merely people choosing to act of their own free will.

They don't have to do what they do, they could all get real jobs or therapy or something. They don't. They actively choose evil. The state is not a force of nature.

Of course the state is not a force of nature.

However, it is an inevitable consequence of a large amount of energy and resource being available.

As long as there is an amount of resources available over and above what is required for day to day subsistence, then there will always inevitably be a small number of people who will grab (by whatever means) a disproportionate quantity of those resources. Once they have obtained them, they will seek to maintain (by any means) their relatively more powerful position.

In earlier times, the relatively smaller excess of resources limited the size of the sphere of control of these elites. Lately, the massive amount of surplus afforded by hydrocarbons has led to continental-sized "nation states", which is the biggest sphere of control the world has ever known.

As the energy runs down, so to will the size of that sphere of control. However, as long as there is a surplus of resources, there will always be a small number of ruthless people attempting to control the lives of the majority.

The only way you get to see your injin-nirvana of free men is for us all to live, once more as pre-civilisation subsistence hunter/gatherers. Who knows maybe we would all be happier that way and more in tune with our essential natures. It's kind of academic really since that surplus does exist.

Live with it.

Edited by Steve Cook

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Of course the state is not a force of nature.

However, it is an inevitable consequence of a large amount of energy and resource being available.

As long as there is an amount of resources available over and above what is required for day to day subsistence, then there will always inevitably be a small number of people who will grab (by whatever means) a disproportionate quantity of those resources. Once they have obtained them, they will seek to maintain (by any means) their relatively more powerful position.

In earlier times, the relatively smaller excess of resources limited the size of the sphere of control of these elites. Lately, the massive amount of surplus afforded by hydrocarbons has led to continental-sized "nation states", which is the biggest sphere of control the world has ever known.

As the energy runs down, so to will the size of that sphere of control. However, as long as there is a surplus of resources, there will always be a small number of ruthless people attempting to control the lives of the majority.

The only way you get to see your injin-nirvana of free men is for us all to live, once more as pre-civilisation subsistence hunter/gatherers. Who knows maybe we would all be happier that way and more in tune with our essential natures. It's kind of academic really since that surplus does exist.

Live with it.

No, it's still a choice.

You can push little old ladies over and take their stuff but you don't because you are better than that.

Those who do are evil.

So it is with the statists. They are choosing to be evil.

Stop rationalising it and stop trying to live without this realisation.

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Guest Steve Cook
No, it's still a choice.

agreed

You can push little old ladies over and take their stuff but you don't because you are better than that.

agreed

Those who do are evil.

agreed

So it is with the statists. They are choosing to be evil.

agreed

Stop rationalising it and stop trying to live without this realisation.

Stop denying the reality you have just described and stop trying to live without this realisation

As I said, live with it

Edited by Steve Cook

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Guest Steve Cook

Justification of Capitalism

"if only people would not be inclined to take by force that which is not theirs, we could all trade with integrity and honesty and so bring a world of peace and justice into being"

Justification of Communism

"if only people would not be inclined to take by force that which is not theirs, we could all equitably share with integrity and honesty and so bring a world of peace and justice into being"

Spot the difference injin?

Let me save you the trouble. There isn't one.

We are the problem. Not the systems we use.

Edited by Steve Cook

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The only positive thing I can see about state education is the interaction children get with large numbers of their peers,

This is actually the massive negative point. The vast majority of their peers are probably chavs, scum and badly brought up.

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Guest Steve Cook
This is actually the massive negative point. The vast majority of their peers are probably chavs, scum and badly brought up.

The only reason we have state education is because the state requires it.

If requires it for two reasons. Firstly, in order that we are sufficiently skilled to carry out the work that is required of us by the state. Secondly, in order to ensure that we are "on message" in terms of our norms and values.

Which of the above two is the more powerful reason is open to debate. In any event, most people are willing participants in this equation (or, at least, their parents are) as they are only too aware that without a set of state recognised qualifications, they are significantly economically disadvantaged

A state education will not allow you to leave the table of state controlled resources. It will, however, buy you a place higher up that table

Edited by Steve Cook

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As a teacher myself, I fully support the idea of home schooling.

The state education system is designed, basically, as a one size fits all approach to education based on the premise that coersion is needed to get people to learn.

This actually works OK in a lot of cases.

If, however, you have a bright child, or one who is genuinely curious about the world around them, or can take real responsibility for themselves and how they learn and develop then it's not really that great.

My biggest objections are that a huge amount of time is wasted in school (a bright child could get all their work done by about 11:30 each day if they were working on their own with individual supervision) and the fact that in order to get through the day, schools are basically conformity factories that do little to develop a child beyond a kind of "these are the rules and we'd better live by them" mentality.

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Guest Steve Cook
As a teacher myself, I fully support the idea of home schooling.

The state education system is designed, basically, as a one size fits all approach to education based on the premise that coersion is needed to get people to learn.

This actually works OK in a lot of cases.

If, however, you have a bright child, or one who is genuinely curious about the world around them, or can take real responsibility for themselves and how they learn and develop then it's not really that great.

My biggest objections are that a huge amount of time is wasted in school (a bright child could get all their work done by about 11:30 each day if they were working on their own with individual supervision) and the fact that in order to get through the day, schools are basically conformity factories that do little to develop a child beyond a kind of "these are the rules and we'd better live by them" mentality.

I would agree with much of the above except to point out that a significant number of people are either unable to benefit from private schooling in comparison to state education due to lack of intellect or lack of finances. Admittedly, I would accept this is primarily an issue of finance.

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The government have f*cked up the school system so they now want to f*ck things up for the people who want to remove their kids from the f*cked up school system.

My children all attend good state schools and I've no desire to home ed. but I think that the proposed interference is outrageous.

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What I find amazing is the resilience of the individual and the human ability to see and compare reality to what you are being force-fed. Take Russia, for example. From 1917 onwards (remember Lara's child in DOCTOR ZHIVAGO coming home after her lesson on "enemies of the people"), every single generation was fed Communist propaganda. But it only made them more cynical and at home everything was quite different. Four generations brainwashed by Communist propaganda (one more than E Europe, which "only" began in 1945), yet the idea of the Communist Party winning an election there is now virtually unthinkable.

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