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kenny dalglish

Does Anyone Think The Tories Will Be Any Better ?

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I Have not been a HPC'r that long, but must admit I am rather dismayed at the over simplification of the issues on these boards. Gordon Brown appears to be personally loathed as if he is solely responsible for the utter mess the economy is in. Massive over generalizations like "labour wreck economy again ", "Brown clings to power", "Brown is psychopath", "Nu lab responsible for all the world's woes". etc

Personally I think the picture is rather more complex than people would either like to admit or are capable of grasping. There seems to be no concept that the scenario we are seeing now began years ago with unfettered loosening of the capitalist genie by Thatcher and Reagan and the "me , me, me","more,more,more" culture that is gave birth to (no such thing as society apparantly). Or the fact that the federal reserve and the bank of england pumped unsustainable liquidity into the system or that (God forbid) the public themselves were also greedy and culpable in the credit orgy that ensued.

After having lived through the last tory government that thought that 3 million unemployed was an "acceptable" price to pay for reform, that created the illusion that every one who worked hard could "get on", when the truth is that the tory years simply enriched the bank balances of those who the party really serves. They left the country with no manufacturing base (why bother ? most tories are/were in law and banking) but instead created an economy heavility dependent on the finace industry and wealth being generated simply by people selling ever increasingly priced houses to each other , in the mother of all ponzi schemes that is now the tragedy we see unfolding before us.

And this isn't even an anto tory rant, it's merely to show that the other lot are really no better and that arguably this lot although effing clueless have been undone by a set of circumstances that would have scuppered any party. And the notion that the toies would have been any more disciplined with the banks, is frankly laughable.

So you want labour out ? be very careful what you ask for is all. I think the problem is a little closer to home and lies probably with all of us and the system, I exclude the saints on these boards of course, who seem to have all of the answers to all of the problems and to my mind are frankly wasting their saloon bar pontificating and should really all be in government.

Cue the outrage and bile....

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Broadly, I agree with you. But I am ever an optimist and think that we are seeing a quite subtle exercise in democracy. People are unhappy that the baby and the bathwater have gone because of economic problems. It has shaken very many households to the core and the politicians are held, justifiably, responsible.

Just when everyone is looking to politicians for answers, we find that they were busy insulating their nests from any harm. Even if they become unemployed they get a £60,000? redundancy notice.

Time then, for an end to the same old. Some new people, some new policies and a new sense of accountability.

Who can offer that package? People will need convincing, but are not yet persuaded to any particular party. If Gordon can be ruthless, he may yet do it. Cameron? Does his Party back him to be a Roundhead, a Puritan with their perks? I would not bet on it. An interesting Conference season ahead.

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Broadly, I agree with you. But I am ever an optimist and think that we are seeing a quite subtle exercise in democracy. People are unhappy that the baby and the bathwater have gone because of economic problems. It has shaken very many households to the core and the politicians are held, justifiably, responsible.

Just when everyone is looking to politicians for answers, we find that they were busy insulating their nests from any harm. Even if they become unemployed they get a £60,000? redundancy notice.

Time then, for an end to the same old. Some new people, some new policies and a new sense of accountability.

Who can offer that package? People will need convincing, but are not yet persuaded to any particular party. If Gordon can be ruthless, he may yet do it. Cameron? Does his Party back him to be a Roundhead, a Puritan with their perks? I would not bet on it. An interesting Conference season ahead.

Agree hilltop, the system is at fault no doubt. But we all play our part.

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I actually want a Prime minister that is elected by the people.

"No more boom and bust"

"I will not let house prices get out of control"

He was in charge of the purse strings for 11 years and now, through no choice of the people in charge of the nation :(

His decisions during those years have left this country on it`s knees. We could all bang on about selling our gold so cheaply. We are expected to be one of the last nations out of recession/depression and the debt that one eye`d fecker has passed on to my 5 year old daughter and 8 year old son is nothing short of criminal and he is still increasing it.

I have never voted labour and never will. They always bring this country to it`s knees and if he gets his way and hangs on until the last, then he will be the unelected Prime minister overseeing 3 million unemployed.

I seriously do not believe any party and prime minister could have got so many things so wrong.

This is HPC and his decisions are the very reason this site was set up in the first place. Not sure many web forums will be singing his praises but FFS don`t look into this one for Brown fans.

He and they can Feck right off........

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I actually want a Prime minister that is elected by the people.

"No more boom and bust"

"I will not let house prices get out of control"

He was in charge of the purse strings for 11 years and now, through no choice of the people in charge of the nation :(

His decisions during those years have left this country on it`s knees. We could all bang on about selling our gold so cheaply. We are expected to be one of the last nations out of recession/depression and the debt that one eye`d fecker has passed on to my 5 year old daughter and 8 year old son is nothing short of criminal and he is still increasing it.

I have never voted labour and never will. They always bring this country to it`s knees and if he gets his way and hangs on until the last, then he will be the unelected Prime minister overseeing 3 million unemployed.

I seriously do not believe any party and prime minister could have got so many things so wrong.

This is HPC and his decisions are the very reason this site was set up in the first place. Not sure many web forums will be singing his praises but FFS don`t look into this one for Brown fans.

He and they can Feck right off........

"I seriously do not believe any party and prime minister could have got so many things so wrong."

I am sure you don't. We said the same about the tories and labour before them (I remember them both). Maybe another prime minister would not have made the same mistakes (I actualy think any PM would have acted in pretty much the same way, but we will never know). I rather suspect that another leader would have just made different mistakes and you would be venting about those instead. Banging on about particular people is pointless (but go ahead anyway, fill your boots). It is still the system that is at fault and as stated we all play our part. We want low taxes but world class health and social services, we all want to save the environment but want other people to change in order to make that happen, we all want saints for politicians when we are far from that ourselves and we pander to simplistic arguments and use anger rather than reason, because if we thought about it too much we might discover that we are just as culpable in our own small way.

Truly we have the politics we deserve.

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Guest X-QUORK

I won't vote for the Tories, but I'd rather see them win the next GE than Labour. If nothing else, I want to see the back of the Big Brother mentality of our current government, ID cards must be thrown into the bin of bad ideas.

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"I seriously do not believe any party and prime minister could have got so many things so wrong."

I am sure you don't. We said the same about the tories and labour before them (I remember them both). Maybe another prime minister would not have made the same mistakes (I actualy think any PM would have acted in pretty much the same way, but we will never know). I rather suspect that another leader would have just made different mistakes and you would be venting about those instead. Banging on about particular people is pointless (but go ahead anyway, fill your boots). It is still the system that is at fault and as stated we all play our part. We want low taxes but world class health and social services, we all want to save the environment but want other people to change in order to make that happen, we all want saints for politicians when we are far from that ourselves and we pander to simplistic arguments and use anger rather than reason, because if we thought about it too much we might discover that we are just as culpable in our own small way.

Truly we have the politics we deserve.

I pay my taxes, I actually get off my ar5e and vote and I am entiltled to my opinion.

The system is wrong.... I agree

I am hoping that change will now happen but as an employer of many people and a father of two I also believe in setting a good example and encourage others to follow.

I actually contribute to the NHS through voluntary work and I have recieved awards from my local council for initiatives in helping my company operate more enviromently friendly.

Yes none of us are perfect but I am entitled for many reasons to demand more from my government, even if I did not vote for them.

I am not angry, just having a beer and responding to your post...... and you must try and defer from casting your huge assumption net to anyone reading this thread.

Gordon is a Moron and the system is shit but did I mention Gordon is a Moron.

Just filling my boots... ;)

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I won't vote for the Tories, but I'd rather see them win the next GE than Labour. If nothing else, I want to see the back of the Big Brother mentality of our current government, ID cards must be thrown into the bin of bad ideas.

Agree completely. The ID card issue plus the iraq war are 2 reasons why I will not vote for labour any more. I think people can disagree with specific policies without saying that one party is wholly bad or good. I think the Iraq war and the death directly/indirectly of a million people in an imperialistic war over oil is to my mind a far greater evil and again shows why we deserve the politicians we get. We create much more fuss over media driven agendas such as the credit crunch and the expenses scandal rather than the fact that our government took us into not 1 but 2 illegal wars and still refuses to condemn the atrocities of Israel. The day the general populace starts to concern itself with the wrongs and injustices perpetrated on other people and less about issues rooted in self interest,celebrity and the puerile, is perhaps the day it deserves, in turn, a more elightened government.

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Yes of course, the Western economic system owes much of its problems to Reagan and Thatcher:

And NuLab simply continued along the same primrose path.

That said, Godron's much vaunted "Economic Miracle" was simply yet another realisation of prototypical post WWII Boom-Bust: the first of course being engineered by the Heath-Barber duopoly in the early 70s: the next Thatcher-Lawson and then, the "New Tories" AKA NuLabour.

The singular differences in the case of Blair-Brown were firstly and most critically, their trumpeting how the Bank of England was freed from Government intervention on the one hand: and on the other, taking away from the Bank critical money management weapons, and ceeding such to an FSA - a new body - lacking the necessary skills and experience to adequately fulfill the tasks.

Thus government enjoyed more power over money supply than ever previoisly: and singularly failed most dismally to halt banking excess and the insanity of unfettered credit expansion.

Futhermore and perhaps equally as bad, they allowed the other half of Brown's Economic Miracle to charge ahead without any controls: excessive imports of Asian goods mainly then sold on credit.

It is perhaps comforting to consider that a new Tory government might wind back some of the abuses of power such as ID cards and etc.

However history demonstrates that Governments rarely undo what was done before: they merely tinker.

The core problem with British politics is the reality that this has been dominated by the Oxbridge mafia since 1944: not only at cabinet level but more critically in the upper echelons of the established civil service (The Mandarins of Whitehall, e.g. - see C P Snow's epic novel analysis, The Corridors of Power).

Britain and particularly politicians talk easily about democracy: presently, it fails to actually exist in this country: what we have is a charade which masquerades under a faded cloak of democracy.

For example, in a democracy, Brown would not have assumed the mantle of PM with no elector input.

A democracy would roll out some form of PR (As BLiar promised in his pre-1997 election manifesto), in order to make everyone's vote worth something.

In a democracy, electors would have been allowed the decision concerning Lisbon: the EU Constitution by another name.

A democracy would have reacted differently to public disquiet over Iraq.

When Call Me Dave forms the next government, inevitably, he and his gang of sycophants will simply bumble along much as before: meanwhile blaming Labour for every problem: even those which enjoy their roots in Thatcher and Heath!

Plus ça change; plus c'est la même chose !

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Kenny Dalglish?

Scottish - check

Likes red - check

past it - check

You are Brownie Madeoff and I claim my £5. Whether you like it or not, the red corner have had their chance to ****** things up and now its the blue corner's turn to ****** things up again.

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Agree completely. The ID card issue plus the iraq war are 2 reasons why I will not vote for labour any more.

+1, and +1 again!

In 1997, I could not believe a Labour Party would be so keen on war! At least some of the old guard had

the guts to resign their cabinet positions!

The intrusion of the State into the life of the individual, is also something, of which I have a very negative opinion! :(

The Torys will not do any better!

Governments now claim they can control the Economy, the Tide, Human Nature, and the Weather! They can't!

Canute knew this some time ago! ;)

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I Have not been a HPC'r that long, but must admit I am rather dismayed at the over simplification of the issues on these boards. Gordon Brown appears to be personally loathed as if he is solely responsible for the utter mess the economy is in. Massive over generalizations like "labour wreck economy again ", "Brown clings to power", "Brown is psychopath", "Nu lab responsible for all the world's woes". etc

Personally I think the picture is rather more complex than people would either like to admit or are capable of grasping. There seems to be no concept that the scenario we are seeing now began years ago with unfettered loosening of the capitalist genie by Thatcher and Reagan and the "me , me, me","more,more,more" culture that is gave birth to (no such thing as society apparantly). Or the fact that the federal reserve and the bank of england pumped unsustainable liquidity into the system or that (God forbid) the public themselves were also greedy and culpable in the credit orgy that ensued.

After having lived through the last tory government that thought that 3 million unemployed was an "acceptable" price to pay for reform, that created the illusion that every one who worked hard could "get on", when the truth is that the tory years simply enriched the bank balances of those who the party really serves. They left the country with no manufacturing base (why bother ? most tories are/were in law and banking) but instead created an economy heavility dependent on the finace industry and wealth being generated simply by people selling ever increasingly priced houses to each other , in the mother of all ponzi schemes that is now the tragedy we see unfolding before us.

And this isn't even an anto tory rant, it's merely to show that the other lot are really no better and that arguably this lot although effing clueless have been undone by a set of circumstances that would have scuppered any party. And the notion that the toies would have been any more disciplined with the banks, is frankly laughable.

So you want labour out ? be very careful what you ask for is all. I think the problem is a little closer to home and lies probably with all of us and the system, I exclude the saints on these boards of course, who seem to have all of the answers to all of the problems and to my mind are frankly wasting their saloon bar pontificating and should really all be in government.

Cue the outrage and bile....

Welcome.

Of course it is complex, very complex , however there are a few simple things that for most folks override the complexities ie Nu Labour have spent everything and left us in a mess. Gordon Brown is clealry unwell and sociopathic.

You can examine the minutiae of everything without seeing the bigger picture.

Time for the blues to b_gger it up now.

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I haven't heard the conservatives claim they will do anything nor have I heard what policy they have to achieve it.

If we are honest the differences between Nu Lab and the Conservatives are paper thin.

What I have heard from Labour is what really scares me, conveyor belt spending increases when tax revenues are falling, expenses and gold plated pensions, a severely bloated public sector.The state has become far to large and cumbersome. I believe the Tories will do a better job of balancing the books in government and the country.

Frankly, I have no faith at all in Gordon despite some good policies he caused the debt problems we have now and refuses to take responsibility. He is prepared to give concessions to the back benchers to cling on to power and Mandy is warning MP's against an election. This is exactly what is wrong with our government, how is sacrificing policy to save his own skin going to help the country? The destruction of the labour party awaits if they do not take action now.

He needs to go now and Labour need a new leader and an election in October.

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If a problem was created 12 years ago under the Tories, surely 12 years is long enough to fix it under labour????

But no they are shlt.

The tory party now is different to the one back then, they wont be perfect but they cant possibly be worse, than this inept bunch of w@nkers we have at the moment.

Oh and nobody claimed a simple solution on here, its just typing out the entire solution would take days and no one would read it.

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If a problem was created 12 years ago under the Tories, surely 12 years is long enough to fix it under labour????

But no they are shlt.

The tory party now is different to the one back then, they wont be perfect but they cant possibly be worse, than this inept bunch of w@nkers we have at the moment.

Oh and nobody claimed a simple solution on here, its just typing out the entire solution would take days and no one would read it.

You don't think the Tories will be sh!t?

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Of course they will do better, they handed over a very stable economy last time.

The problem will be that the measures to pay off debt will mean increasing taxes, interest rates and slashing public jobs. So some will think this is bad.

The people who voted Labour in for 12 years have caused these problems, and I suspect will be the ones to suffer most from the solutions. So fair play.

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I Have not been a HPC'r that long, but must admit I am rather dismayed at the over simplification of the issues on these boards. Gordon Brown appears to be personally loathed as if he is solely responsible for the utter mess the economy is in. Massive over generalizations like "labour wreck economy again ", "Brown clings to power", "Brown is psychopath", "Nu lab responsible for all the world's woes". etc

Personally I think the picture is rather more complex than people would either like to admit or are capable of grasping. There seems to be no concept that the scenario we are seeing now began years ago with unfettered loosening of the capitalist genie by Thatcher and Reagan and the "me , me, me","more,more,more" culture that is gave birth to (no such thing as society apparantly). Or the fact that the federal reserve and the bank of england pumped unsustainable liquidity into the system or that (God forbid) the public themselves were also greedy and culpable in the credit orgy that ensued.

After having lived through the last tory government that thought that 3 million unemployed was an "acceptable" price to pay for reform, that created the illusion that every one who worked hard could "get on", when the truth is that the tory years simply enriched the bank balances of those who the party really serves. They left the country with no manufacturing base (why bother ? most tories are/were in law and banking) but instead created an economy heavility dependent on the finace industry and wealth being generated simply by people selling ever increasingly priced houses to each other , in the mother of all ponzi schemes that is now the tragedy we see unfolding before us.

And this isn't even an anto tory rant, it's merely to show that the other lot are really no better and that arguably this lot although effing clueless have been undone by a set of circumstances that would have scuppered any party. And the notion that the toies would have been any more disciplined with the banks, is frankly laughable.

So you want labour out ? be very careful what you ask for is all. I think the problem is a little closer to home and lies probably with all of us and the system, I exclude the saints on these boards of course, who seem to have all of the answers to all of the problems and to my mind are frankly wasting their saloon bar pontificating and should really all be in government.

Cue the outrage and bile....

The FIRST post on HPC re a change of government that has echoed how I am feeling but cannot put it into words and back it up with facts so thank you .

I have never been very political but I know the Tories were voted out because people had had ENOUGH, just like now.

For 12 (?) years the Tories have not stood a chance in hell of getting back into power, so much so they were beginning to sound like the Green Party as they struggled to find something they could stand for that New Labour was not already standing for as they became more and more like a New Tory party.

I stumbled on this piece the other day The Expense of New Labour

......As it floated free from its traditional moorings, little wonder that a new generation of Labour leaders became confused about what they were in politics for. If policy dictated that unashamed greed was indeed the irreplaceable mainspring of economic advance, how could it be wrong to act on those same precepts in one’s own life?

The whole thrust of the Blair government was, after all, that politics didn’t really matter, and indeed were best eschewed altogether. The Blair pitch was always that, if voters elected the right people (“pretty straight sort of guysâ€), they could safely forget about politics which would become nothing more than an annoying distraction – the domain of a few fanatics. The Labour Party was assured that it did not need political analysis or a programme for real reform.

But without that analysis and programme, what was power for? The question matters little to the right; power for them is the means by which the pace and direction of change can be controlled and, at times, completely frustrated. But for the left, power is surely a means to an end, to a different and better society – one which shares its benefits with everyone.

But that, too, was denied by New Labour. For them, the purpose of power was not to use it but to enjoy it and extend it. Power was a state of being, not a path to change. The over-riding priority of New Labour was always, from the first day of taking power, to retain it by winning the next election. Power as the instrument of change would be limited to those measures that did not alienate powerful interests and thereby jeopardise the perpetuation of power.......

I think it is a shame months and months ago that the Labour Party didn't remove Brown and scapegoat him for the problems and set about trying to deal with the mess, back in January that may just have been possible, now all they have done is turn the UK blue, and we all know that didn't work last time round.

We all know the Conservatives would have done EXACTLY the same as Labour have done regarding the property market and most on this forum believe the Tories will do EXACTLY the same to deal with this mess except they WILL dismantle the health service this time and penalise the already disfranchised to pay for it.

Mc Tavish has already said they are HIS party the party of "unbridled capitalism". And this is McTavish regarding HPC's and how his party will rule the world :

Selfish morans

... healthcare and welfare WASTE should take the brunt of it.

If you are unemployed and have 6 kids by 6 different fathers, no more 7 bedroom house for you, slag.

Soup kitchens and tents,

Oh yes and this is McTavish with regards the lovely Merryn Somerset Webb:

Merryn Somerset Webb .

Is an ugly, odious, crash ramping little attention whore.

Scum of the earth.

And here's Mc Tavish with regards HPC's :

Delusional people with messiah complexes, running around posting on websites everywhere, proclaiming the evils of global finance and the tyranny of "debt slavery". In other words, slackers that can't make a proper living and cant afford a house. Very sad indeed.

It makes me ashamed to be human to be honest...........

I think the tragedy here is that we are losing labour for what?

Most are voting them out because :

1. the banks want more money

2. people think if the banks were given more money their property price would go back up

etc etc

In other words they are being voted out not because they are not attempting to continue to do what got us all in this mess in the first place but they CAN'T risk anymore to keep property prices high especially when attempting to support an inflated property bubble has left the UK bankrupt and millions unemployed.

If I could actually see any benefit from a change in party I would be as thrilled as everyone else seems to be about the UK going blue , but its not a change in party we need but a shift in power, and I am not sure many on this website can even begin to comprehend what that actually means.

Thank for your piece.

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"I seriously do not believe any party and prime minister could have got so many things so wrong."

I am sure you don't. We said the same about the tories and labour before them (I remember them both). Maybe another prime minister would not have made the same mistakes (I actualy think any PM would have acted in pretty much the same way, but we will never know). I rather suspect that another leader would have just made different mistakes and you would be venting about those instead. Banging on about particular people is pointless (but go ahead anyway, fill your boots). It is still the system that is at fault and as stated we all play our part. We want low taxes but world class health and social services, we all want to save the environment but want other people to change in order to make that happen, we all want saints for politicians when we are far from that ourselves and we pander to simplistic arguments and use anger rather than reason, because if we thought about it too much we might discover that we are just as culpable in our own small way.

Truly we have the politics we deserve.

I began to respond to your reply above by highlighting certain sentences but ended up nearly highlighting the lot. What can we do to multiply Kenny Dalglish's?

I just can't believe that ANYONE does not believe that the Tories would not have allowed the RMBS market to inflate the property bubble from 2001 to the tune of £200bn by 2007 eventually leaving the banks and the UK bankrupt.

Surely the reason Labour did not call for tighter regulation is because that is what people would have expected Labour to do not the Conservatives, and it would have been VERY unpopular. As that piece I have already linked on this thread earlier said:

The over-riding priority of New Labour was always, from the first day of taking power, to retain it by winning the next election. Power as the instrument of change would be limited to those measures that did not alienate powerful interests and thereby jeopardise the perpetuation of power.

Somebody posted a piece a few days ago about "We need Worldcentric People in Power," or something like that , and whilst I thought the language was somewhat of a put off I cannot disagree with the concept of a shift being needed not between LEFT and RIGHT but right here in the middle of it all , and that shift requires us moving away from being a participating member of the "blame " culture and not jumping to conclusions.

I have attempted a few times the past few days to put this into words on threads but its not simple, but this kind of says it:

HPC Link

And another attempt here, I expect people to be rude to me about my "bear of little brain" attempts to express what I feel.

HPC Link

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HOW COME THIS ONE GETS MOVED OFF TOPIC whilst threads about what the Conservatives will or will not do etc get left on? The first thread that speaks about this in some sort of balanced manor instead of speaking about Brown being and expletive , and it gets moved off topic ;)

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Agreed, but we need a government (any naysayers should check out Somalia). The only rational and adult response to the corrupting effect of power is to ALWAYS vote out the incumbent in any election.

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The tory party now is different to the one back then, they wont be perfect but they cant possibly be worse, than this inept bunch of w@nkers we have at the moment.

Sounds like famous last words to me ;)

"What can possibly go wrong?"

"Trust me, its definitely the red wire"

"They'll never think of looking here"

"I'm sure somebody has checked beforehand"

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Agreed, but we need a government (any naysayers should check out Somalia). The only rational and adult response to the corrupting effect of power is to ALWAYS vote out the incumbent in any election.

Melchett,old bean. For once we disagree.I think that there have been times when a Government needed to be given more time.Going back to the 1950's the corollary of this argument would be that the Tory government should have been voted out in 1955.The short tenure of Eden aside,we then had several years of stable,socially progressive government by MacMillan. My old man went nuts when he said that we had never had it so good,but with hindsight it was actually true.

Similarly I think that the first Blair government was ok.Where it all went wrong was Iraq,but Blair was being pragmatic as he knew that any policy disagreement with Bush was going to be ruthlessly exploited by the Tory media.I have never liked Brown but given a choice between him and Frogspawn I would most likely choose the former as chancellor.

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Guest KingCharles1st

Most people in the UK (apart from the hangers on) realise this country needs massive reform to stand firm and get itself back on track.

Cameron can@t even beat Brown at PMQ, and half the old blue rinse brigade have either died, or are now voting BNP/UKIP

Personally I feel the next four years will be the Tories last hurrah, and the following government will NOT be Labour....

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Most people in the UK (apart from the hangers on) realise this country needs massive reform to stand firm and get itself back on track.

Cameron can@t even beat Brown at PMQ, and half the old blue rinse brigade have either died, or are now voting BNP/UKIP

Personally I feel the next four years will be the Tories last hurrah, and the following government will NOT be Labour....

Scarey but I understand where you are coming from.

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Scarey but I understand where you are coming from.

There is definitely scope for a main stream party to take a firmer line on immigration,especially the Islamification taking place in Britain.Should either party be prepared to tackle the issue there are dividends to be had.I think this is the real reason for the drift to the right across europe.Most of us have had enough of kow-tow ing to Allah.We won't however vote for a Neo-Nazi party,it needs to be sensible,an acknowledgement that our cultures are in fact mutually exclusive not something that can just be mixed.

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