Alan B'Stard MP Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I can show you a factual basis for ownership, it's really easy. Please. ...and don't say 'because I produced it yadda yadda' because that means the leaky roof owns the puddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Please....and don't say 'because I produced it yadda yadda' because that means the leaky roof owns the puddle. Because I produced it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I contract with you to give Dave 5 gold pieces.You go to Dave and offer him a bucket of fisheads instead of the gold. Dave accepts. I now owe you nothing. You haven't done what we contracted to do. To make you whole if there is a problem, you only need a bucket of fishheads, not gold. Banks work like the above, but after giving fisheads they want and insist upon gold. This is so confused, it is hard to make what parrallels you are drawing This is probably more realistic You contract me to give dave 5 gold pieces I give dave the means to buy his own 5 gold pieces The only outstanding issue is dave's costs in aquiring the gold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan B'Stard MP Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 (edited) Because I produced it. A fantasy. The leaky roof owning the puddle. Try again but this time not using your beliefs on what you did or didn't do. Edited June 9, 2009 by Alan B'Stard MP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I want the fact that leads peopel to differing beliefs. The fact that it is an injin note and you are injin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 The fact that it is an injin note and you are injin That's not a difference in the thing itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 A fantasy.The leaky roof owning the puddle. Try again but this time not using your beliefs on what you did or didn't do. Rooves don't have the capacity for ownership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan B'Stard MP Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Rooves don't have the capacity for ownership. And neither do you. You only believe you do. How does someone walking into a room in the house in which you live - know that you own the stuff there. What FACT makes it so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 That's not a difference in the thing itself. Yes it is; if there were no difference no discernment could be made Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Yes it is; if there were no difference no discernment could be made No, your discernment was about me versus someone else. I hold a piece of paper and you say it's worthless. I hand the same piece of paper to Mervyn king and suddenly it's all valuable. Paper remains the same - therefore this is some kind of hypnotic effect or just general poor thinking on your part, not connected with the thkng itself. Where does this come from i wonder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 And neither do you.You only believe you do. How does someone walking into a room in the house in which you live - know that you own the stuff there. What FACT makes it so. The facts of history, my trading working etc to get this stuff. if you ain't got the history, you ain;t got a right to the stuff. Easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 No, your discernment was about me versus someone else.I hold a piece of paper and you say it's worthless. I hand the same piece of paper to Mervyn king and suddenly it's all valuable. No..an injin note would still be worthless if mervyn king held it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 No..an injin note would still be worthless if mervyn king held it No, mervyn kings notes are still worthless if I hold them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 No, mervyn kings notes are still worthless if I hold them. Err no If that were a fact you believed you would happily treat both equally in trade You wont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Err noIf that were a fact you believed you would happily treat both equally in trade You wont I do. I have. Why wouldn't I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I do.I have. Why wouldn't I? Fine print up some injin notes Send them to me for postage and inconvenience / printing costs (because they are worthless) Then trade me back one of my injin notes for (say) £100,000 of mervyn money Deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Fine print up some injin notesSend them to me for postage and inconvenience / printing costs (because they are worthless) Then trade me back one of my injin notes for (say) £100,000 of mervyn money Deal? Sure. £100,000 There you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Sure.£100,000 There you go. That's not mervyn money Like i said, all mouth and no trousers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 That's not mervyn moneyLike i said, all mouth and no trousers That is mervyn money - which is the whole point of this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Imp Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 It's quite interesting that gold was used as an analogy. The value of gold is a perception. Someone, many thousands of years ago, decided that gold was pretty, didn't corrode and would be good to trade with. Had they liked something else better, then we might be looking at the UKs quartzite reserves, for example, rather than the gold reserves. It's purely a perception of value. These days you get a piece of paper with some coloured printing on and get told that it has a 'value' of £10. You could just as easily get given a pretty shell in your wage packet, as long as enough people perceived its value as being £10. We perceive that value of our scruffy bits of paper because someone in an office in London has told us what it's valued at. It is a belief held accross the country. The paper doesn't constitute money in itself, merely a belief in it. That's where it can all come unravelled. When we stop believing in the paper in our wallets, it becomes worthless and you might as well use it to light a fire. Just look at Zimbabwe (already mentioned here). There is no-longer a belief in the value of the money. They trade in dollars now. The belief in the bits of paper is the important part of any transaction. If a shopkeeper doesn't believe that a note is real, then they won't accept it. A cheque is also a matter of belief. It's a twenty-seven pound note in effect. The shopkeeper has to believe that you have £27 in your account to take your cheque. The bank doesn't then send over a courrier with £27 to the shop. Instead, a man with a pencil (or computer these days) simply crosses £27 from one account and puts it into the other. The money was never real, just a belief in it. The men in the offices are now hoping that by printing more scruffy bits of paper, we'll still all believe that the brownish one has a value of £10. Where did the 'real' money come from to make these new bits of paper? There isn't any. It's made up money. But because the men in the offices do it, it's not fraud. If you were to print a new tenner for yourself, you'd be comitting fraud. Why is it wrong for a family in overty to print themselves out of poverty, but the bank is allowed to? But that's a different question altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 That is mervyn money - which is the whole point of this discussion. If your premises lead you to that conclusion, then may I invite you to take another look at your premises Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 That is mervyn money - which is the whole point of this discussion. If it is mervyn money, you would happily exchange mervyn notes for it at a 5% discount..yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 If it is mervyn money, you would happily exchange mervyn notes for it at a 5% discount..yes? Ye sure, why wouldn't I? it's not like the supply is limited or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 (edited) Ye sure, why wouldn't I?it's not like the supply is limited or anything. If you feel you can post me physical mervyn notes (5% discounted) while I type numbers into this thread, who am i to argue? My first number is £500,000 Oh hold on.. £450,000 A total of £950,000 in sterling notes Is that a deal? Edit to add - i forgot the 5% discount £950000 - £47500 = £902500 Edited June 9, 2009 by Stars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parkwell Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Involving what?You want a real state of affairs between peopel without anything real involved. Do behave. Indeed. "Neither a borrower nor a lender be; For loan oft loses both itself and friend, And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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