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jethrotull

Labour Near Extinction

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Back in 1935 the Liberal Party were nearly made extinct. They have never recovered, and survive now as a small corner of the Liberal Democrats.

The same fate could befall the Labour Party, reducing it to 3rd or even 4th party status, behind UKIP.

The Liberals disappeared because their previous policies became mainstream, so there was no reason to vote for them. The same has happened to Labour with organized labour in the UK disappearing. Their constituency is gone.

For years Labour got by with the minority vote, the LGBT vote, the green vote, the animal rights vote, etc., etc.. Now all this is enshrined in law and adopted by all parties, these groups have no reason to vote Labour. Notice how many rainbow banners there were at the back of every Miners Strike meeting - now what do they have in common?

The Tory voting South-East of the country keeps growing and the Labour voting parts keep shrinking.

In order to prove they're not Old Labour they have blown it by swinging too far the other way with "light and limited" financial regulation, war-mongering, freezing headline taxes, authoritarian internal security, public sector pay restraint (for the lower orders), and general policies to the right of the Old Tories.

At the same time New Labour still repeated the same old mistakes of spending money we just didn't have on people who just didn't deserve it. The level of charitable giving is low in the UK, largely because the government has nationalized charity and made it compulsory.

This is it. Labour has run its course. All its best ideas are mainstream. The only thing left to differentiate is the economic ignorance of its ministers. Hazel Blears talks about "ordinary people", but I don't want the most important decisions to be taken by the most average citizens, I want the big decisions taken by the clever, educated and experienced - but I want them accountable to us.

This isn't 10 years in the wilderness for the Labour Party, this is decades of waiting for the membership to pass on, until they can merge with some other party. Labour are off to a retirement home, and they're never coming back.

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Couldn't agree more, good riddance.

They stand for all the wrong things now, they are authoritarian(ID cards, civil liberty destruction), petty (bin inspectors :rolleyes:), vindictive (IR35 grr) and greedy (expenses).

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Couldn't agree more, good riddance.

They stand for all the wrong things now, they are authoritarian(ID cards, civil liberty destruction), petty (bin inspectors :rolleyes:), vindictive (IR35 grr) and greedy (expenses).

IR35, wow are contractors still banging on about that.

Actually you will find that Labour have done more for this country than any political movement in the history of mankind.

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Actually you will find that Labour have done more for this country than any political movement in the history of mankind.

I agree. They were very successful and now their ideas are mainstream. When a Party runs out of new ideas it runs out of reasons to continue to exist. The Liberal anti-slavery policies are as irrelevant now as Labour's universal education and healthcare policies; because we nearly all agree it ceases to differentiate.

The only things that differentiate New Labour now are pettiness, spite, vindictiveness, triumphalism, crassness, tokenism, incompetence, and plain ordinary politicians.

Brown has gone on and on and on about change, but he hasn't changed anything. He has spent, but on the same old administrators of the same old stuff.

Every time I hear the phrase "social investment" I want to puke. Such twisted and deceitful language.

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Back in 1935 the Liberal Party were nearly made extinct. They have never recovered, and survive now as a small corner of the Liberal Democrats.

The same fate could befall the Labour Party, reducing it to 3rd or even 4th party status, behind UKIP.

The Liberals disappeared because their previous policies became mainstream, so there was no reason to vote for them. The same has happened to Labour with organized labour in the UK disappearing. Their constituency is gone.

For years Labour got by with the minority vote, the LGBT vote, the green vote, the animal rights vote, etc., etc.. Now all this is enshrined in law and adopted by all parties, these groups have no reason to vote Labour. Notice how many rainbow banners there were at the back of every Miners Strike meeting - now what do they have in common?

The Tory voting South-East of the country keeps growing and the Labour voting parts keep shrinking.

In order to prove they're not Old Labour they have blown it by swinging too far the other way with "light and limited" financial regulation, war-mongering, freezing headline taxes, authoritarian internal security, public sector pay restraint (for the lower orders), and general policies to the right of the Old Tories.

At the same time New Labour still repeated the same old mistakes of spending money we just didn't have on people who just didn't deserve it. The level of charitable giving is low in the UK, largely because the government has nationalized charity and made it compulsory.

This is it. Labour has run its course. All its best ideas are mainstream. The only thing left to differentiate is the economic ignorance of its ministers. Hazel Blears talks about "ordinary people", but I don't want the most important decisions to be taken by the most average citizens, I want the big decisions taken by the clever, educated and experienced - but I want them accountable to us.

This isn't 10 years in the wilderness for the Labour Party, this is decades of waiting for the membership to pass on, until they can merge with some other party. Labour are off to a retirement home, and they're never coming back.

Unfortunately they have screwed the country in the process

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I agree. They were very successful and now their ideas are mainstream. When a Party runs out of new ideas it runs out of reasons to continue to exist. The Liberal anti-slavery policies are as irrelevant now as Labour's universal education and healthcare policies; because we nearly all agree it ceases to differentiate.

I don't think everything within their purview, as it used to be, is fixed. But they seem completely uninterested in doing anything for the benefit of people who merely work for a living so either it won't happen or someone else will have to do it. The problem really is that the left has no real answer to reconciling internationalism (currently expressed as globalisation) with protecting workers.

But on the whole, I think you make a very good point there. The question going forward is whether universal education and healthcare could become live issues again; the Tory party itself I don't expect it from based on what they have said but some of their more hot-headed alleged supporters posting here could give one pause for thought. Some years ago you may recall Letwin (and Howard Flight) saying one thing in public and saying something very different in private, I guess we'll find out one way or the other soon anyway.

Anyhow, now go and tell the feminists the same thing. I'll be right behind you the whole time. Honest.

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This isn't 10 years in the wilderness for the Labour Party, this is decades of waiting for the membership to pass on, until they can merge with some other party. Labour are off to a retirement home, and they're never coming back.

Very interestnig and thought provoking. I agree, and with Cogs' comments - particularly about feminism!

There is a strange human prediliction for nostalgic hanging on to things; not just biscuit tins an train sets but religious and political concepts despite stark evidence that some of these are out of date because the world has changed drastically since they were a good idea.

When Labour was a good idea, it took a certain superior meddling authoritarian mentality to get it to work. The Labour party's reinvention to new Labour was a nasty trick - admit that there was no longer a need for old Labour policies, but carry on with the superior meddling authoritarian bit that they knew and loved.

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IR35, wow are contractors still banging on about that.

Actually you will find that Labour have done more for this country than any political movement in the history of mankind.

This is why they will never die away, because some very low intellect people somehow think they did well, and of course Dad always voted for them.

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This is it. Labour has run its course. All its best ideas are mainstream. The only thing left to differentiate is the economic ignorance of its ministers. Hazel Blears talks about "ordinary people", but I don't want the most important decisions to be taken by the most average citizens, I want the big decisions taken by the clever, educated and experienced - but I want them accountable to us.

Technocracy is the essence of the Fabian Socialism behind the New Labour Project - self-appointed intellectual elites managing the unwashed cattle masses. Of course, the average NuLabour aparachnik may well be a retard but they firmly believe in 'expertism'.

Let expert bankers run the economy.

Let the pharmaceutical industry make health decisions.

Yet anonymous educationalists with questionable agendas set the curriculum.

Use DNA to track and identify innocent citizens.

I suggest you vote Labour.

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Let expert bankers run the economy.

Let the pharmaceutical industry make health decisions.

Yet anonymous educationalists with questionable agendas set the curriculum.

Use DNA to track and identify innocent citizens.

I suggest you vote Labour.

We've all that mainly at the hands of the lobby system and votes for favours. The election bit is a bit of a sham.

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They simply forgot the working man. Once you have money its very easy (or was) to make more money so they shouldn't have made it even easier for the wealthy at the expense of the not so lucky.

I also feel cheated that they were the same old Tories in disguise but in many ways worse. The last 12 yrs has been a waste of peoples time to be honest. We needed a complete turnaround of policy after 18 years of Tory rule and all we got was a continuation at twice the speed.

I'm pretty sure that had the crash not occurred for whatever reason then Gordy would have been quite proud of himself when the cost of an average terraced house reached a million quid or more and would have insisted that it was great for the economy. I dread to think what the consequences of this would have been to the working and middle classes, I suspect that most would have had to leave the country or become basement servants to the rich because it would be so expensive to live here.

If you weren't willing to join the party and become as aggressive as the risk takers and reckless then you were either considered dumb, unlucky or uncompetitive and therefore the UK was no place for you. For them to insist that the last 10 years was the 'nice' decade sums it up really because personally I think its been hell under this hopeless government.

When I think back to 97, even after nearly two decades of Tory destruction I remember things being a lot easier than they are today. We didn't really have that much to worry about compared to now and for that reason I hope that NuLabour are wiped from the earth as they have destroyed this country, yet they just don't see it!

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Back in 1935 the Liberal Party were nearly made extinct. They have never recovered, and survive now as a small corner of the Liberal Democrats.

The same fate could befall the Labour Party, reducing it to 3rd or even 4th party status, behind UKIP.

The Liberals disappeared because their previous policies became mainstream, so there was no reason to vote for them. The same has happened to Labour with organized labour in the UK disappearing. Their constituency is gone.

For years Labour got by with the minority vote, the LGBT vote, the green vote, the animal rights vote, etc., etc.. Now all this is enshrined in law and adopted by all parties, these groups have no reason to vote Labour. Notice how many rainbow banners there were at the back of every Miners Strike meeting - now what do they have in common?

The Tory voting South-East of the country keeps growing and the Labour voting parts keep shrinking.

In order to prove they're not Old Labour they have blown it by swinging too far the other way with "light and limited" financial regulation, war-mongering, freezing headline taxes, authoritarian internal security, public sector pay restraint (for the lower orders), and general policies to the right of the Old Tories.

At the same time New Labour still repeated the same old mistakes of spending money we just didn't have on people who just didn't deserve it. The level of charitable giving is low in the UK, largely because the government has nationalized charity and made it compulsory.

This is it. Labour has run its course. All its best ideas are mainstream. The only thing left to differentiate is the economic ignorance of its ministers. Hazel Blears talks about "ordinary people", but I don't want the most important decisions to be taken by the most average citizens, I want the big decisions taken by the clever, educated and experienced - but I want them accountable to us.

This isn't 10 years in the wilderness for the Labour Party, this is decades of waiting for the membership to pass on, until they can merge with some other party. Labour are off to a retirement home, and they're never coming back.

Great post, I hope you are correct... the only shame will be seeing Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Michael Martin etc in the house of lords for so long when the truth is that they have damaged this country immeasurably... I also balme those who voted for labour down the years, it was clear to me that we were heading for trouble and no one can claim they were not warned... once one might be able to forgive, but twice, three times ... I simply couldn't believe others couldn't see through the spin.

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Have you noticed how Cameron manages Tory news output? He is virtually the only Tory face you are allowed to see and the only Tory voice you are allowed to hear. The others are shut up because they are the same shower of self interested, right wing exploitative bigots they always have been. Sometimes, Ken Clarke gets past the minders and contradicts Cameron! This is the alternative of choice!

Shake out of the Labour Party is overdue, but replace it in Government? Not with any of theoptions on offer.

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They simply forgot the working man. Once you have money its very easy (or was) to make more money so they shouldn't have made it even easier for the wealthy at the expense of the not so lucky.

I also feel cheated that they were the same old Tories in disguise but in many ways worse. The last 12 yrs has been a waste of peoples time to be honest. We needed a complete turnaround of policy after 18 years of Tory rule and all we got was a continuation at twice the speed.

I'm pretty sure that had the crash not occurred for whatever reason then Gordy would have been quite proud of himself when the cost of an average terraced house reached a million quid or more and would have insisted that it was great for the economy. I dread to think what the consequences of this would have been to the working and middle classes, I suspect that most would have had to leave the country or become basement servants to the rich because it would be so expensive to live here.

If you weren't willing to join the party and become as aggressive as the risk takers and reckless then you were either considered dumb, unlucky or uncompetitive and therefore the UK was no place for you. For them to insist that the last 10 years was the 'nice' decade sums it up really because personally I think its been hell under this hopeless government.

When I think back to 97, even after nearly two decades of Tory destruction I remember things being a lot easier than they are today. We didn't really have that much to worry about compared to now and for that reason I hope that NuLabour are wiped from the earth as they have destroyed this country, yet they just don't see it!

During the eighties and nineties, the capitalists persuaded everyone that what was in their interest was in everyone's interest. All real politics ended.

The current ideology of the labour party is a weird mix of support for the land-owners and capitialists, identity politics (to distract the old left) and authoritarianism. Its very sad, because all the traditional institutions that gave some power back to ordinary people, however flawed they were, are now gone or irrelevant.

The idea that we don't need them anymore is rubbish. Just because you work in an office, just because you have a mortgage and went to university, it doesn't mean that you aren't working class. One of Tony Blair's greatest tricks was to pursuade people that they were all middle class now, whilst at the same time destroying the middle class. How many children of teachers and doctors are now working in call centres to pay off their student debts, and pay the rent on their flat in what used to be seen as a 'poor area'? The original working class has been largely replaced with a benefit dependent underclass.

The worst possible political situation is when one interest group, backed by one ideology, retains all the power and uses it soley in their own interests. This is what we have now.

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Have you noticed how Cameron manages Tory news output? He is virtually the only Tory face you are allowed to see and the only Tory voice you are allowed to hear. The others are shut up because they are the same shower of self interested, right wing exploitative bigots they always have been. Sometimes, Ken Clarke gets past the minders and contradicts Cameron! This is the alternative of choice!

Shake out of the Labour Party is overdue, but replace it in Government? Not with any of theoptions on offer.

Credit to Cameron, he has kept the troublemakers contained within his policy generating apparatus. Whatever his faults, he played that one very well. For the time being, everyone has their own little self-important policy fiefdom and there is mechanism for them to fight in private. Be interesting to see what happens when there is actual power on the table and not enough chairs for everyone.

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sadly, i agree with what has been said on this thread. as working class people we need a real labour party but the blair /brown government has been the worst tory government we have had. we need labour to change and go back to being the party of labour but this will not happen unless they get routed today with a strong protest vote.

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IR35, wow are contractors still banging on about that.

Actually you will find that Labour have done more for this country than any political movement in the history of mankind.

They have done some good things, but the course they have set is wholely unsustainable. They have taken a low debt moderate tax surplus producing and efficient economy and overspent. They lost control, they didn't mange, they had appeasement high on the agenda, they were weak in implementing and the compromises made had menat little or no reform and thus hopelessly poor value for the large sums spent. We now face high debt, dramatic tax consequences, and we have produced red tape and restrictions that hamper trade and raise costs. If only they hadn't been too greedy to feed the mouths of their core vote, and if only they had translated bold talk of reform of public services they might have managed to build a fair but sustainable model.

Instead we have over-cooked the goose. We will have to go hungry. We need to sack the chef and throw the goose away.

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During the eighties and nineties, the capitalists persuaded everyone that what was in their interest was in everyone's interest. All real politics ended.

The current ideology of the labour party is a weird mix of support for the land-owners and capitialists, identity politics (to distract the old left) and authoritarianism. Its very sad, because all the traditional institutions that gave some power back to ordinary people, however flawed they were, are now gone or irrelevant.

The idea that we don't need them anymore is rubbish. Just because you work in an office, just because you have a mortgage and went to university, it doesn't mean that you aren't working class. One of Tony Blair's greatest tricks was to pursuade people that they were all middle class now, whilst at the same time destroying the middle class. How many children of teachers and doctors are now working in call centres to pay off their student debts, and pay the rent on their flat in what used to be seen as a 'poor area'? The original working class has been largely replaced with a benefit dependent underclass.

The worst possible political situation is when one interest group, backed by one ideology, retains all the power and uses it soley in their own interests. This is what we have now.

I'd agree with your final point and have come round to starting to believe that some form of proportional representation system with a smaller number of MP's might be a good way forwards.... hopefully we'd end all this swigning to and fro and might end up with a solid track we can go down.. if Labour had followed tory spending plans beyind their first term in office we really wouldn;t be where we are now.. they didn't , they reverted to type and now the country's down the swanny.

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sadly, i agree with what has been said on this thread. as working class people we need a real labour party but the blair /brown government has been the worst tory government we have had. we need labour to change and go back to being the party of labour but this will not happen unless they get routed today with a strong protest vote.

We have not had a tory Govt in disguise, we have had a socialist/fascist Govt mascarading as Tory, but make no mistake, they are socialist. Central control of resources, interfering in every aspect of our lives, raising taxes, socially engineering our education, moving us to amongst the most heavily taxed countires in the World (now 6th most taxed of 29 leading nations), growing the state as a percentage of the economy, introducing restrictions on our liberty. And taking control of the banks - which was central to the old Socialist agenda, all done under a political smokescreen - you note all banks needed money - the one that got it from the market, Barclays, has seen the investors who bailed it make money, sadly a profit exported abroad, whilst the Govt shows no sign or inclination to release control, has failed to book the same profit on its investment - it doesn't want to, it has achieved its goal of controlling our banking system.

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I agree with the fitst post - I have just one caveat:

We have a failed political system- but if the Tories do win power will they really have any incentive to change it?

Seriously will they??

Our system of Parliamentary Democracy needs a strong Opposition, not one cursed by infighting and internal power struggles. It was this lack of Opposition (I used a capital O) that was the root of the problem in the 80's with a dismal Labour party under an omnipotent ruling Tory Government. And the problem continued (in reverse) all through the B liar years.

I hope NL are wiped out. But I need them, or at least some other party to provide a serious opposition.

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Both the Conservative and Liberal parties lost seats heavily in the 1935 general election: only Labour gained (over 100 seats IIRC). The reason was very simple: rearmament. The Tories had argued loudly and often that it was essential to fight the emerging threat of fascism from Germany and Italy. Labour were vocal in their opposition, and public opinion was overwhelmingly with them (virtually every voter had lost at least one relative in WWI). But because the Tories and Labour were standing on a National Government ticket, Baldwin had to tread very carefully, hence his 'I will never stand for a policy of great armament ... but that much we must have!' speech.

It's just that the Liberals started from a much lower base, hence their effective anhililation.

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I agree with the fitst post - I have just one caveat:

We have a failed political system- but if the Tories do win power will they really have any incentive to change it?

Seriously will they??

Our system of Parliamentary Democracy needs a strong Opposition, not one cursed by infighting and internal power struggles. It was this lack of Opposition (I used a capital O) that was the root of the problem in the 80's with a dismal Labour party under an omnipotent ruling Tory Government. And the problem continued (in reverse) all through the B liar years.

I hope NL are wiped out. But I need them, or at least some other party to provide a serious opposition.

Tories and Labour (new or old) are symbiotes, two faces of the same coin. They need eachother to keep the charade going for another 70 years. After all it has served them very well these last 70.

I'm so p1ssed off to go to vote this morning to find that proportional representation in the Euro elections means putting one X on a list of 20 parties. I don't want ONE party. I want a dozen views in parliament having to build alliances just like in real life. If you only have 2 parties the alliance building and in-fighting happens behind closed doors within the parties themselves. You'll only get proper government and opposition in a multi-party assembly.

Regards

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