Sending Round The Baliffs To Kick Down The Door

[shedfish]

....by the door.. that's where i meant to put it

thanks for the reminder!

[Guest_FaFa!_*]

Picture the scene – a bailiff comes to your home because you haven't paid a debt you owe, perhaps your council tax, and the court has given him the power to enforce it. You refuse to let him in, but he breaks in and enters anyway. When you get in his way as he appraises your property, he has his beefy companion pin you down to the floor.

No protest on your part can sway them because their actions are perfectly legal.

This is not a nightmare scenario from a dystopian future, but could in fact be reality very soon in the UK. A little-noticed provision of the Domestic Violence Crime and Victims Act 2004 overturned the centuries-old principle that "an English's home is his castle" and permitted bailiffs to use force to enter homes in order to collect criminal fines, which include minor offences such as failing to pay for a TV licence

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/li...iffs-karen-buck

Haven't seen this elsewhere on the forum so apologies if already posted.

I don't think people should get away scot-free from their debts myself, but allowing people to indulge in gangster behaviour to retrieve debt is appalling. Another nail in the coffin of our liberties and this will undoubtedly lead to bloodshed if permitted.

[Financial Hack]

It's pretty worrying though, especially when I consider a problem I had I little while back.

Basically, previous tenant buggered off oweing about £1200 of council tax. When I moved in I filled out the form for the council to register etc... payed the tax, no problems (apart from my outrage at how expensive it was).

Anyway, the council kept on sending letter to this previous tenant (envelopes had their name on it). I started off returning them to sender, but eventually it just got ridiculous so I just started binning them instead.

About 9 months after I'd moved in, I get a knock on my door from a Bailiff, with court permission to repo things. I said this woman didn't live here, but this brute did try and get past me, ended up calling the police and the council to sort it out.

It turns out this Bailiff actually had the power to get the police along to break down the door so he could repo stuff to pay the bill, as it was for non-payment of tax. Thing is, if I hadn't been in he might well have just taken my stuff to repay someone elses debt due to total mismanagement by the council.

Anyway, that's a pretty good example of why bailiffs should not be given these kinds of powers, as mistakes can easily be made which mean innocent people suffer, and it's a particular problem for tenants, who will often live in homes and flats where previous tenants didn't pay their debts.

[ma-ku]

You need to read the article

It says

I hope this comes with heavy heavy penalties for the baliffs if they make a mistake. Plenty of people are hounded by energy companies etc. for debts that are not owed by the individuals concerned.

[anonguest]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/li...iffs-karen-buck

Haven't seen this elsewhere on the forum so apologies if already posted.

I don't think people should get away scot-free from their debts myself, but allowing people to indulge in gangster behaviour to retrieve debt is appalling. Another nail in the coffin of our liberties and this will undoubtedly lead to bloodshed if permitted.

This, presumably, would be only for non-payment of criminal offence penalties and NOT for enforcing civil debts (e.g debts to the banks). IF it covers civil debts then be afraid, be very afraid.

[godless]

Its moves like this that will lead to civil war

[wonderpup]

If baliffs have the right to attack people, do people have the right to defend theselves against attack?

[Ked]

....by the door.. that's where i meant to put it

thanks for the reminder!

[Guest_FaFa!_*]

This, presumably, would be only for non-payment of criminal offence penalties and NOT for enforcing civil debts (e.g debts to the banks). IF it covers civil debts then be afraid, be very afraid.

You need to read the article

It says

This is not a nightmare scenario from a dystopian future, but could in fact be reality very soon in the UK. A little-noticed provision of the Domestic Violence Crime and Victims Act 2004 overturned the centuries-old principle that "an English's home is his castle" and permitted bailiffs to use force to enter homes in order to collect criminal fines, which include minor offences such as failing to pay for a TV licence (see paragraph 28, 125CA (2) and paragraph 3 (1)).

Next, provisions in the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 made it possible for bailiffs to break in to collect civil fines and to use physical force to restrain debtors (see paragraphs 20 to 23; paragraph 24(2) and 31 (5)). So far these powers are not in force because the government has not created the necessary regulations to implement them.

[Injin]

We've had several threads on this topic over the past 12 months or so, but it is such an important topic that imo it easily bears another thread. It is a total infringement of liberty and I've no idea what our representatives in parliament were thinking of when they passed such an illiberal bill.

They were thinking of the money from Goldman Sachs, HSBC et al.

And couple it to the recent proposal to farm out tax collection to private companies and you have a recipe for rebellion - I mean, since when did the Inland Revenue ever manage to get tax returns/tax owed correct? One is forever hearing about IR mistakes that take years to put right - if ever. Can you imagine bailiffs forcing entry to collect tax that is deemed to be owed only because of an IR mistake? And private companies will act first and think later - driven as they are by profit and commission.

Exactly so.

The inevitable consequence of reversing the burden of proof.

[grumpy-old-man-returns]

Its moves like this that will lead to civil war

I agree & that's what they want.

Let's see what happens in the US the back end of this year & next to get a feel for what we have coming eh ?

[huw]

I hope this comes with heavy heavy penalties for the baliffs if they make a mistake. Plenty of people are hounded by energy companies etc. for debts that are not owed by the individuals concerned.

And for at-fault creditors. Full liability for consequential damages + punitive element. In fact, make 'em take out compulsory insurance since they are putting others at risk by their actions, no less than a car driver does.

[SNACR]

I hope this comes with heavy heavy penalties for the baliffs if they make a mistake. Plenty of people are hounded by energy companies etc. for debts that are not owed by the individuals concerned.

We have frequent problems with utilility companies as we move in and out of premises a lot. Staggeringly, you'll find there's very little recourse when bailiffs/DCAs make mistakes and for that you need pockets deep enough for some pricey legal representation. Usually, the utility/bailiff/DCA just buck pass and ar5e cover and get away with it. Also many of the DCAs, through familiarity, are far too chummy with court staff and judges.

This might be a good thing, except for the initial victims. It'll only take a few wrong addresses and pensioners having heart-attacks and hopefully the powers might be rescinded to less than they had to start with.

One big way that I'd change the way utilities can act and cut off power is making it necessary for them to first credibly prove the debt in the county court.

[Concrete Jungle]

If bailiffs attempt to break into my house to enforce a debt that doesn't exist, I will meet them in the hallway with a baseball bat and decanted super hot chillies mixed with water in a spraygun.

[sbn]

decanted super hot chillies mixed with water in a spraygun.

Oil would be better (sunflower etc) Capsiacin is not soluble in water. Spray it on your food - lurvely!!!

Edited June 2, 2009 by sbn

[smiffy1967]

It's pretty worrying though, especially when I consider a problem I had I little while back.

Basically, previous tenant buggered off oweing about £1200 of council tax. When I moved in I filled out the form for the council to register etc... payed the tax, no problems (apart from my outrage at how expensive it was).

Anyway, the council kept on sending letter to this previous tenant (envelopes had their name on it). I started off returning them to sender, but eventually it just got ridiculous so I just started binning them instead.

About 9 months after I'd moved in, I get a knock on my door from a Bailiff, with court permission to repo things. I said this woman didn't live here, but this brute did try and get past me, ended up calling the police and the council to sort it out.

It turns out this Bailiff actually had the power to get the police along to break down the door so he could repo stuff to pay the bill, as it was for non-payment of tax. Thing is, if I hadn't been in he might well have just taken my stuff to repay someone elses debt due to total mismanagement by the council.

Anyway, that's a pretty good example of why bailiffs should not be given these kinds of powers, as mistakes can easily be made which mean innocent people suffer, and it's a particular problem for tenants, who will often live in homes and flats where previous tenants didn't pay their debts.

LOL

this happened not so long ago, repo outfit came round some guys house and repo'd it. Guy came home from work (paid off mortgage) and was locked out all night until he could get the keys from the state agent that was now managing the property on behalf of the bank.

[Methinkshe]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/li...iffs-karen-buck

Haven't seen this elsewhere on the forum so apologies if already posted.

I don't think people should get away scot-free from their debts myself, but allowing people to indulge in gangster behaviour to retrieve debt is appalling. Another nail in the coffin of our liberties and this will undoubtedly lead to bloodshed if permitted.

We've had several threads on this topic over the past 12 months or so, but it is such an important topic that imo it easily bears another thread. It is a total infringement of liberty and I've no idea what our representatives in parliament were thinking of when they passed such an illiberal bill.

And couple it to the recent proposal to farm out tax collection to private companies and you have a recipe for rebellion - I mean, since when did the Inland Revenue ever manage to get tax returns/tax owed correct? One is forever hearing about IR mistakes that take years to put right - if ever. Can you imagine bailiffs forcing entry to collect tax that is deemed to be owed only because of an IR mistake? And private companies will act first and think later - driven as they are by profit and commission.

[PotNoodle]

Yes, I'm afraid I didn't pay my TV licence.

Is there a problem with that ?

Feel free to discuss it with my friend, Storm.

Edited June 2, 2009 by PotNoodle

[anonguest]

Its moves like this that will lead to civil war

Civil UNREST certainly.

You have to ask what on earth were MPs thinking when they voted for this?! Then again, based on what I have read lately, they probably didnt read the proposals at all ! They simply dont seem to have the capacity to 'connect the dots' and think things through on the simplest of things. Its the naive old "well if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" mentality.

It is absolutely tragically inevitable, as sure as night follows day, that permitting these sorts of powers will lead to blood being spilt - often innocent too!

Edited June 2, 2009 by anonguest

[Guest BAREBEAR_soon to be ALIVA]

Civil UNREST certainly.

You have to ask what on earth were MPs thinking when they voted for this?! Then again, based on what I have read lately, they probably didnt read the proposals at all ! They simply dont seem to have the capacity to 'connect the dots' and think things through on the simplest of things. Its the naive old "well if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" mentality.

It is absolutely tragically inevitable, as sure as night follows day, that permitting these sorts of powers will lead to blood being spilt - often innocent too!

There wont be any civil war or much unrest in this country, we've all been pummeled and softened up with PC for ages.

Then there is the fact that the majority of us are'nt physical workers anymore, we aint as tough as we used to be.

[Justice]

Yes what more do you exspect from a police state controlled by MP's who are above the law.

Keep telling you all we don't have a democracy and voting won't fix jack $hit when it's a cross party police state that servers to protect leaders and enforce taxes so more MP's can buy porn at our exspence.

WHEN ARE THE POLICE GOING TO DO WHAT THEY ARE PAID FOR !

[A Fool & His Borrowed Money]

Have a brawl with the bailiffs.

Seeing as they can bish bosh you in legallynow, fug 'em up in return.

[Concrete Jungle]

Oil would be better (sunflower etc) Capsiacin is not soluble in water. Spray it on your food - lurvely!!!

Cheers I will get to work on a new batch.

[ARIMA]

It's pretty worrying though, especially when I consider a problem I had I little while back.

Basically, previous tenant buggered off oweing about £1200 of council tax. When I moved in I filled out the form for the council to register etc... payed the tax, no problems (apart from my outrage at how expensive it was).

Anyway, the council kept on sending letter to this previous tenant (envelopes had their name on it). I started off returning them to sender, but eventually it just got ridiculous so I just started binning them instead.

About 9 months after I'd moved in, I get a knock on my door from a Bailiff, with court permission to repo things. I said this woman didn't live here, but this brute did try and get past me, ended up calling the police and the council to sort it out.

It turns out this Bailiff actually had the power to get the police along to break down the door so he could repo stuff to pay the bill, as it was for non-payment of tax. Thing is, if I hadn't been in he might well have just taken my stuff to repay someone elses debt due to total mismanagement by the council.

Anyway, that's a pretty good example of why bailiffs should not be given these kinds of powers, as mistakes can easily be made which mean innocent people suffer, and it's a particular problem for tenants, who will often live in homes and flats where previous tenants didn't pay their debts.

Can I just point out that if you actually ring the company or debt collecting agency involved (yes this takes a little effort), they are actually quite reasonable and that will most likely be the end of the matter. I've done this a couple of times.

Not having a dig at you, but for some of the posters on this site this is clearly an alien concept.

Edited June 2, 2009 by GARCH

[Concrete Jungle]

Can I just point out that if you actually ring the company or debt collecting agency involved (yes this takes a little effort), they are actually quite reasonable and that will most likely be the end of the matter. I've done this a couple of times.

Not having a dig at you, but for some of the posters on this site this is clearly an alien concept.

Really? The three companies I have suffered from as a result of previous tenants moving on have been a right pain in the arris.