Escaping Debt

[gilf]

So......legality issues aside, does 'the system' operate in

such a way as to make it (in theory) that easy for those without property

to escape and 'walk away' from debts?? if one is able to make the necessary

changes in lifestyle. No wonder the government wants ID

cards so much!

What am I missing??? Hmmmmmm........

Nothing..... just the same if I said "legality issues aside" if I murder somebody and get rid of the body will I get away with it.

The point is you haven't walked away from the debts, you have illegally engineered the system so the debts are not linked to your new identity. You still owe the money.

You could get away with it but is going down the official bankruptcy channels any worse that living with the constant threat of going to prison for fraud (however likely that might be to happen).

[cashinmattress]

Surely it also amounts to fraud if you leave the country solely for the purposes of debt evasion?

The scenario I described does not involve defrauding HMRC. Indeed, one would continue to pay tax, NI, council tax, etc.

IF the banks do not have the means to verify NI numbers against names, then one need not even try to go down the false NI number route described. Just open a bank account with a new bank, start afresh and ignore all correspondence from old bank.

Maybe people like you have two or three lifetimes to figure things out, but the rest of us have one.

If you are up to your eyeballs, you either stay in the UK and endure the rest of your life in penury and the hardships it brings, or you feck off and try setting up elsewhere.

Playing silly buggers in the UK with the taxman and you will lose. 100%

Edited June 2, 2009 by cashinmattress

[cashinmattress]

Bankruptcy is a good option. But it will not do much for your future within UK territory....unless the wholesale fraud we have just witnessed gets a second wind.

[anonguest]

In response to the thread earlier today "Bankruptcy - The

Easy Option" and some of my replies, I got thinking a bit

further.

Consider as an example, for those whose personal

circumstances it would apply to, the following scenario to

escape ones debts without leaving the country:

1) Change name by Deed Poll.

To avoid undue attention/arousing suspicion - change only

surname rather than whole name (e.g John Smith to Joe

Bloggs). This is more easily explainable and dismissed as

being because you want to take your mothers maiden name, or

such like excuse.

2) Notify Passport Office and DVLA and get passport and

driving licence duly ammended to show new name. Notify change

at GPs surgery, local council, car insurance, etc. It is also possible to

request that your NI number/name details are also ammended.

3) Using your 'new' commonly accepted de-facto ID documents,

go and open a bank account (preferably at one where you do

not have any outstanding debt).

I have not opened a bank account in 10+ years, so cant

remember and have no idea what the procedure or personal

information required is.

I assume the only significant additional personal information

that would be asked of you (other than name/date of

birth/address/etc), will be your National Insurance number??

If so, then if you give a false number (even one digit wrong

- to act as plausible 'innocent error' defence at a later

date if subsequently 'caught') presumably the bank clerk

processing the application has no way there and then to

verify the validity of the supplied NI number?

I'm sure by now readers will see where I am going with this,

so will stop writing explict explanation.

Furthermore, given that one only needs 30 years contribution

to qualify for a full state pension, its quite likely that

one could 'sacrifice' 6 years of NI contributions (by paying

into a wrong NI number/record) and still accrue enough

contributions over a typical working life to still get a full

pension - once they resume paying again into their real NI

account.

So......legality issues aside, does 'the system' operate in

such a way as to make it (in theory) that easy for those without property

to escape and 'walk away' from debts?? if one is able to make the necessary

changes in lifestyle. No wonder the government wants ID

cards so much!

What am I missing??? Hmmmmmm........

Edited June 2, 2009 by anonguest

[cashinmattress]

If fraud is what you are attempting then fraud is the elephant in the room.

If you think you can outsmart HMRC, go for it.

It's much easier to leave the country and start anew.

[grizzly bear]

In response to the thread earlier today "Bankruptcy - The

Easy Option" and some of my replies, I got thinking a bit

further.

Consider as an example, for those whose personal

circumstances it would apply to, the following scenario to

escape ones debts without leaving the country:

1) Change name by Deed Poll.

To avoid undue attention/arousing suspicion - change only

surname rather than whole name (e.g John Smith to Joe

Bloggs). This is more easily explainable and dismissed as

being because you want to take your mothers maiden name, or

such like excuse.

2) Notify Passport Office and DVLA and get passport and

driving licence duly ammended to show new name. Notify change

at GPs surgery, local council, car insurance, etc. It is also possible to

request that your NI number/name details are also ammended.

3) Using your 'new' commonly accepted de-facto ID documents,

go and open a bank account (preferably at one where you do

not have any outstanding debt).

I have not opened a bank account in 10+ years, so cant

remember and have no idea what the procedure or personal

information required is.

I assume the only significant additional personal information

that would be asked of you (other than name/date of

birth/address/etc), will be your National Insurance number??

If so, then if you give a false number (even one digit wrong

- to act as plausible 'innocent error' defence at a later

date if subsequently 'caught') presumably the bank clerk

processing the application has no way there and then to

verify the validity of the supplied NI number?

I'm sure by now readers will see where I am going with this,

so will stop writing explict explanation.

Furthermore, given that one only needs 30 years contribution

to qualify for a full state pension, its quite likely that

one could 'sacrifice' 6 years of NI contributions (by paying

into a wrong NI number/record) and still accrue enough

contributions over a typical working life to still get a full

pension - once they resume paying again into their real NI

account.

So......legality issues aside, does 'the system' operate in

such a way as to make it (in theory) that easy for those without property

to escape and 'walk away' from debts?? if one is able to make the necessary

changes in lifestyle. No wonder the government wants ID

cards so much!

What am I missing??? Hmmmmmm........

well thats fraud and i think you'd get caught fast as credit checks show all alias's so if you kept the same address and DOB they'd catch up with you.

[anonguest]

If fraud is what you are attempting then fraud is the elephant in the room.

If you think you can outsmart HMRC, go for it.

It's much easier to leave the country and start anew.

Surely it also amounts to fraud if you leave the country solely for the purposes of debt evasion?

The scenario I described does not involve defrauding HMRC. Indeed, one would continue to pay tax, NI, council tax, etc.

IF the banks do not have the means to verify NI numbers against names, then one need not even try to go down the false NI number route described. Just open a bank account with a new bank, start afresh and ignore all correspondence from old bank.

[anonguest]

well thats fraud and i think you'd get caught fast as credit checks show all alias's so if you kept the same address and DOB they'd catch up with you.

DOB does not prove one and same person. John Brown and John Smith happen to have same DOB, so what? Especially so what IF they live at different addresses (i.e as part of the 'plan', you move to a new home)

[1888]

Fortunately, even if all the wildest Orwellian police state tinfoil hat conspiracy fears are true, it is still not a crime to think out loud and ask questions. When it does become so then I will leave - jumping the queue ahead of you!

I left 4 years ago mon ami!

seriously tho u have to weigh up the total hassle and possible criminality

of your actions ,what seems a plausible idea now can become a noose later on

honesty is always the best policy in the longterm

[anonguest]

Nothing..... just the same if I said "legality issues aside" if I murder somebody and get rid of the body will I get away with it.

>You are taking this too seriously. I was querying whether 'the system', as currently configured, does in theory make it >relatively easy to 'walk away' from the debts. I had an interesting conversation with a magistrate years ago about >parking tickets and asked what would happen if people just refused to pay one day? The system would collapse she >said. The system only works because teh majority agree to abide by it.

The point is you haven't walked away from the debts, you have illegally engineered the system so the debts are not linked to your new identity. You still owe the money.

>Only for 6 years though?

You could get away with it but is going down the official bankruptcy channels any worse that living with the constant threat of going to prison for fraud (however likely that might be to happen).

Again that would depend on the circumstances of the individual.

Edited June 2, 2009 by anonguest

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

If fraud is what you are attempting then fraud is the elephant in the room.

If you think you can outsmart HMRC, go for it.

It's much easier to leave the country and start anew.

Lending a person bankl credit created at the click of a mouse button is fraud too though isn't it???

It is my rule book anyway

[anonguest]

Maybe people like you have two or three lifetimes to figure things out, but the rest of us have one.

If you are up to your eyeballs, you either stay in the UK and endure the rest of your life in penury and the hardships it brings,

>So you dont even approve of bankruptcy? In your book people HAVE to suffer indefinitely for the error of their ways??

or you feck off and try setting up elsewhere.

>Well, if the country is full of unfeeling and uncaring people with this ort of attitude even I would advocate that!

Playing silly buggers in the UK with the taxman and you will lose. 100%

>On that we do agree. BUt I wasnt talking about defrauding the taxman.

Edited June 2, 2009 by anonguest

[anonguest]

honesty is always the best policy in the longterm

Obviously not Member of Parliament material then!

[grizzly bear]

Thanks. Interesting.

Agreed, the 'Alias' issue is a possible flaw in this fiendish plan. But am still not conviced its a deal breaker.......

In tha case you describe, the problem arose because of same initial name as mother in law. To be honest I am puzzled how otherwise parents would be on a credit file - they are not on mine.

As for notfying tax office of name, is it legally required? So long as I continue to pay my tax and NI, etc etc. I can publicly call myself Michael Mouse if I want- what would they care?

But, IF 'the bailiffs' (it wouldnt be them it would be the investigating bank) can search to that extent, then alas I agree one would have to resort to using a false NI number - but again the tax man would not be defrauded becuase he would still receive what is expected from me. Indeed, 16 years ago, when working on a 3 moth contract I inadvertantly gave the wrong NI number (by one digit and one letter). When I found out form checking old payslips 3 years later, I had no trouble getting my contribution record set straight.

are you going to tell your employer of your new name? if you tell your employer then they will tell tax office when i got married i was told by the bank that they run all sorts of checks for fraud and if the name against the salary doesn't match the name of the bank account then it gets investigated?

[anonguest]

......unless the wholesale fraud we have just witnessed gets a second wind.

Sorry, please explain the last bit. Not sure what you mean.

[1888]

I love people who come on here discussing

"day of the Jackal" type scenarios

especially in this IT Surveillant Society headed by

the most Stalinesque Govt ever

<... -- ... --. ..- .. -- . -.- -- .- - --. ..- -. --- >

[anonguest]

I love people who come on here discussing

"day of the Jackal" type scenarios

especially in this IT Surveillant Society headed by

the most Stalinesque Govt ever

<... -- ... --. ..- .. -- . -.- -- .- - --. ..- -. --- >

Fortunately, even if all the wildest Orwellian police state tinfoil hat conspiracy fears are true, it is still not a crime to think out loud and ask questions. When it does become so then I will leave - jumping the queue ahead of you!

Edited June 2, 2009 by anonguest

[anonguest]

are you going to tell your employer of your new name? if you tell your employer then they will tell tax office when i got married i was told by the bank that they run all sorts of checks for fraud and if the name against the salary doesn't match the name of the bank account then it gets investigated?

OK, agreed, so it would only work if you were taking up a new job and giving the HR office your details for the first time.

If you are self employed even better for you.

[Mrs Imp]

When I went into the bank to get a joint account with Imp, they wanted to see the marriage certificate, as I had changed my name. I imagine it'd be the same with e Deed Poll - you'd need to show it, and it would therefore highlight your change of identity.

1888, what does your Morse code spell? I got smsguimekmatguno when I put it through a translator!

[grizzly bear]

In response to the thread earlier today "Bankruptcy - The

Easy Option" and some of my replies, I got thinking a bit

further.

Consider as an example, for those whose personal

circumstances it would apply to, the following scenario to

escape ones debts without leaving the country:

1) Change name by Deed Poll.

To avoid undue attention/arousing suspicion - change only

surname rather than whole name (e.g John Smith to Joe

Bloggs). This is more easily explainable and dismissed as

being because you want to take your mothers maiden name, or

such like excuse.

2) Notify Passport Office and DVLA and get passport and

driving licence duly ammended to show new name. Notify change

at GPs surgery, local council, car insurance, etc. It is also possible to

request that your NI number/name details are also ammended.

3) Using your 'new' commonly accepted de-facto ID documents,

go and open a bank account (preferably at one where you do

not have any outstanding debt).

I have not opened a bank account in 10+ years, so cant

remember and have no idea what the procedure or personal

information required is.

I assume the only significant additional personal information

that would be asked of you (other than name/date of

birth/address/etc), will be your National Insurance number??

If so, then if you give a false number (even one digit wrong

- to act as plausible 'innocent error' defence at a later

date if subsequently 'caught') presumably the bank clerk

processing the application has no way there and then to

verify the validity of the supplied NI number?

I'm sure by now readers will see where I am going with this,

so will stop writing explict explanation.

Furthermore, given that one only needs 30 years contribution

to qualify for a full state pension, its quite likely that

one could 'sacrifice' 6 years of NI contributions (by paying

into a wrong NI number/record) and still accrue enough

contributions over a typical working life to still get a full

pension - once they resume paying again into their real NI

account.

So......legality issues aside, does 'the system' operate in

such a way as to make it (in theory) that easy for those without property

to escape and 'walk away' from debts?? if one is able to make the necessary

changes in lifestyle. No wonder the government wants ID

cards so much!

What am I missing??? Hmmmmmm........

This will not work.

It would be too easy to get caught - eg i haven't used my maiden name for 12 years yet its still on my credit file. And my MIL who has the same surname and same first initial was on the report too since my husband (with who I had a joint mortgage) used to live with his parents (>12 years ago) - the onus was on my to to prove that I was not her! I had to prove I had a different DOB to her to get her removed.

Are you going to tell the tax office and employer about change of name eg in respect of employment? If the bailiffs are looking for you they will use all available records. Your old name will show up on your credit file as an alias.

[cashinmattress]

Sorry, please explain the last bit. Not sure what you mean.

Not in respect you individually.

But our nation taking out loans and mortgages which they could not afford and have not intention of repaying. Fraud.

Edited June 2, 2009 by cashinmattress

[anonguest]

When I went into the bank to get a joint account with Imp, they wanted to see the marriage certificate, as I had changed my name. I imagine it'd be the same with e Deed Poll - you'd need to show it, and it would therefore highlight your change of identity.

You possibly misunderstood the scenario I described.

For a single unmarried person (male or female) walking off the street and into a bank, requesting to open a current account, they would only be asked for the usual basic personal details (i.e name, address, date of birth, etc). These details would likley be readily accepted upon presenting to them ones 'new' passport and driving licence. The idea propositioned was that one does not tell them about your past name.

Also, to clarify, the person would have to be living at a new address too.

Indeed, as an afterthought, why does one even have to declare if they are married?? Is it actually a legal requirement? -you can tell I'm not married! :-D

Edited June 2, 2009 by anonguest

[Mrs Imp]

You possibly misunderstood the scenario I described.

For a single unmarried person (male or female) walking off the street and into a bank, requesting to open a current account, they would only be asked for the usual basic personal details (i.e name, address, date of birth, etc). These details would likley be readily accepted upon presenting to them ones 'new' passport and driving licence. The idea propositioned was that one does not tell them about your past name.

Also, to clarify, the person would have to be living at a new address too.

Indeed, as an afterthought, why does one even have to declare if they are married?? Is it actually a legal requirement? -you can tell I'm not married! :-D

If you've changed your name, you need to prove it. I get a free name change coz I got married, and don't have to pay £90 for a Deed Poll change. I could've kept with my maiden name if I wanted to.

I changed my address at the same time, which most places have found very confusing. "You've changed your name AND your address??!!" My bank took 2 weeks to change my name, then a further 2 weeks to change my address.

[ShedDweller]

There's a girl we used to know she managed to run up debts of just shy of £500,000, using credit cards and mewing and being VERY organised. She had originally intended to go bankrupt, but then her boyfriend got offered a job in Singapore so four months ago she just upped and left. Car (08 obviously) left in the street, and all unneeded furnature left in the house.

She is now married and the baby has just been born (I know because she is on Facebook).

A week ago I walked past the house sort of expecting to see a "For Sale" sign outside .. There was no change except that the windows looked a bit dirty and the mail was halfway up the bottom glass panel. I'm wondering if any of the credit card co's or the mortgage lender have twigged yet ..

[anonguest]

This will not work.

It would be too easy to get caught - eg i haven't used my maiden name for 12 years yet its still on my credit file. And my MIL who has the same surname and same first initial was on the report too since my husband (with who I had a joint mortgage) used to live with his parents (>12 years ago) - the onus was on my to to prove that I was not her! I had to prove I had a different DOB to her to get her removed.

Are you going to tell the tax office and employer about change of name eg in respect of employment? If the bailiffs are looking for you they will use all available records. Your old name will show up on your credit file as an alias.

Thanks. Interesting.

Agreed, the 'Alias' issue is a possible flaw in this fiendish plan. But am still not conviced its a deal breaker.......

In the case you describe, the problem arose because of same initial name as mother in law. To be honest I am puzzled how otherwise parents would be on a credit file - they are not on mine.

As for notfying tax office of name, is it legally required? So long as I continue to pay my tax and NI, etc etc. I can publicly call myself Michael Mouse if I want- what would they care?

But, IF 'the bailiffs' (it wouldnt be them it would be the investigating bank) can search to that extent, then alas I agree one would have to resort to using a false NI number - but again the tax man would not be defrauded becuase he would still receive what is expected from me. Indeed, 16 years ago, when working on a 3 moth contract I inadvertantly gave the wrong NI number (by one digit and one letter). When I found out form checking old payslips 3 years later, I had no trouble getting my contribution record set straight.

Edited June 2, 2009 by anonguest