Injin Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Governments have decided whether such economic activities can take place. Therefore, the market is not free - and rightly so. But the people in the government are free to buy and sell with whoever they like, so you aren't making any sense at all. unless you think that people are one species and change into a different form of life when they start working for the state. I think you'd need to prove that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 A rapid glance of any TV listings publication is evidence enough against any freemarket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 A rapid glance of any TV listings publication is evidence enough against any freemarket. Why? Al the channels are licenced and state controlled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) Why?Al the channels are licenced and state controlled. Nothing but crap is currently on TV because these days, people tend to watch nothing but crap. They're basically giving the vast majority of people what they want (whether they're being made to demand this rubbish is another thing). Now for me, I have the option of turning the TV off and thus not having to endure endless pop culture drivel. The free market in which you endorse has no off switch. What happens to those who refuse to play ball? Edited June 2, 2009 by PopGun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vicmac64 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) A free market free of the corrupting undemocratic fiat banking system would be OK. It is the banks that foul the market. By the way I am referring to the UK market. We control our own markets - all UK business is answerable to the people of the United Kingdom. Global corporatism pracitsed by UK nationals should be regarded as unpatriotic and un British. Edited June 2, 2009 by vicmac64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I assume those people here who frequently post in support of a totally free market would have no objection to North Korea selling nuclear weapons to whoever wants them? Obviously. What's your alternative, pre-emptive strikes or just something like Iraq? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpe Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 There are many well known examples where free markets fail in a very real sense. On Easter Island there was a free market in trees - all the trees were cut down the civilisation was destroyed. There are plenty of examples were centralised planning works better. In the Soviet era in Mongolia, the sustainability of each area was calculated for how much live stock could be maintained there. If an area became unsustainable - livestock were removed to less populated areas. There is now a free market system - desertification is creeping in as it did in Australia. It is really about getting a balance to use markets when appropriate and plan when appropriate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Sadman Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I assume those people here who frequently post in support of a totally free market would have no objection to North Korea selling nuclear weapons to whoever wants them? If someone wants to buy a nuclear weapon, im sure market regulations are the last thing stopping them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Returning to the article, I think it is a useful one in that it finds a dramatic example to test the strength of opinion. Obviously, the OP is a well-known (on this forum) opponent of free markets (and some would say, free choice) and has picked this one to show how bad the free market can be. However, I believe he's done the opposite because what he's really exposing is that the alternative route has no good answers. We LIVE in an unfree World, which has produced a state believing they have to indulge in nuclear proliferation in the teeth of threats and sanctions, so it doesn't work. Bottom line, does anyone really believe Koreans want to Nuke us? Of course they don't, UNLESS they fear we might act against them. Why might they fear this? Only because (1) we act like we might, and (2) we've done it before in Iraq for allegedly exactly the same reason (WMD). Free choice is the only way to harmonious relations. Coercion ends in tears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I am afraid you are not allowed to do that as Parliament is a Grade 1 listed building, if you did blow it up you would be in serious trouble from the planning authorities and English Heritage who would ensure you rebuild it to its exact previous specifications. I think the HSE might be on the case too. make sure you are wearing goggles and protective gloves when handling radioactive material is my advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 sadly free choice cannot be allowed in all casesimagine if we just allowed people free reign to catch all the worlds fish - that is inevitable in a truely free market Then some bright spark would catch them and look after them for future profits. Next! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 sadly free choice cannot be allowed in all casesimagine if we just allowed people free reign to catch all the worlds fish - that is inevitable in a truely free market A mutualy beneficial compromise is needed Obviously a deal in which i privately own the fish or land ect and you don't , is not mutualy beneficial. Howerver, this is more or less what has happened and why we have many of the social / structural problems we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Then some bright spark would catch them and look after them for future profits.Next! Good point - but the state of the oceans might cause problems for everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpe Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Returning to the article, I think it is a useful one in that it finds a dramatic example to test the strength of opinion. Obviously, the OP is a well-known (on this forum) opponent of free markets (and some would say, free choice) and has picked this one to show how bad the free market can be.However, I believe he's done the opposite because what he's really exposing is that the alternative route has no good answers. We LIVE in an unfree World, which has produced a state believing they have to indulge in nuclear proliferation in the teeth of threats and sanctions, so it doesn't work. Bottom line, does anyone really believe Koreans want to Nuke us? Of course they don't, UNLESS they fear we might act against them. Why might they fear this? Only because (1) we act like we might, and (2) we've done it before in Iraq for allegedly exactly the same reason (WMD). Free choice is the only way to harmonious relations. Coercion ends in tears. sadly free choice cannot be allowed in all cases imagine if we just allowed people free reign to catch all the worlds fish - that is inevitable in a truely free market Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Good point - but the state of the oceans might cause problems for everyone Then they will gladly pay someone to fix it Next! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 no.let's say a fisher man can fish all the fish in a sea and get $50,000. Alternatively he can fish a sustainable amount every year and earn $10,000 a year. If the interest rate rises sufficiently it makes economic sense to fish the lot and take the $50,000. We see this in practice in the whale population where the world has only recently succeeded to centrally plan whale fishing and end the so called free market. the price of whale did not rise astonomically making the scenario you suggest either possible or profitable. free markets would have destroyed the whale population Next! Not the slightest clue what this is on about, to be quite honest. Is the fisherman going to die in 4 years time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domo Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Op, as an entity the North Korean government is not private enterprise, when you get a free market in NK they will be too busy trading to want to nuke each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpe Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Then some bright spark would catch them and look after them for future profits.Next! no. let's say a fisher man can fish all the fish in a sea and get $50,000. Alternatively he can fish a sustainable amount every year and earn $10,000 a year. If the interest rate rises sufficiently it makes economic sense to fish the lot and take the $50,000. We see this in practice in the whale population where the world has only recently succeeded to centrally plan whale fishing and end the so called free market. the price of whale did not rise astonomically making the scenario you suggest either possible or profitable. free markets would have destroyed the whale population Next! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 There are many well known examples where free markets fail in a very real sense.On Easter Island there was a free market in trees - all the trees were cut down the civilisation was destroyed. There are plenty of examples were centralised planning works better. In the Soviet era in Mongolia, the sustainability of each area was calculated for how much live stock could be maintained there. If an area became unsustainable - livestock were removed to less populated areas. There is now a free market system - desertification is creeping in as it did in Australia. It is really about getting a balance to use markets when appropriate and plan when appropriate Entering the freemarket did wonders for Boris Yeltsin's Russia.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Then they will gladly pay someone to fix itNext! That could well be one of the costs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Entering the freemarket did wonders for Boris Yeltsin's Russia.... Did it? I thought a lot of newly freed people with no exerience of even limited freedom got ripped off by sociopaths, the mafia and what was left of the KGB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 stop being lazy. replace $50,000 with $100,000 and turn interest rates to 10%. what you are saying about 20% is not true. in many african markets with absolutely no regulation - rates are much higher people do not lend due to the risks. it is an example - there is no need to change the subject onto the detail of the figures, unless your arguement is flawed. No regulation doesn't equal free market if everyone is trying to play regulator. i do not eat whale meat. So why are we fishing then? do some research - read up about how the whale population was saved from the doom of the free market Did you know that as soon as you stop people owning an animal, it's on the "facing extinction" list shortly afterwards? Funny that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiantPanda Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Has there ever been such a thing as a free market? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpe Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) Not the slightest clue what this is on about, to be quite honest.Is the fisherman going to die in 4 years time? are you thick or what? let's say interest rates are 20%. A perpetuity of $10,000 a year is worth $50,000. If interest rates go up to 21%, this perpetuity is worth less than $50,000 and it pays to fish the lot. These decisions are how free market function. Interest rates move - a sustainable income may be better taken as a lump sum. in the real world this way of managing things as devastating. see the whale population as an example Edited June 2, 2009 by sharpe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpe Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Has there ever been such a thing as a free market? Easter Island - trees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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