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blankster

Does Money Really Exist?

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Or is the global economy based an an abstract phenomenon that's turned out to be different from what we thought it was?

I know coins and notes exist and that there's a certain sum in my bank account. We're used to the idea of money not existing in the material sense but just as figures, but even that seems to be in doubt now.

Did the trillions of dollars lost in the sub-prime disater ever exist? Or did we just think it existed?

But even then, I have a few old pre-decimal pennies and shilling and a half-crown. They are not legal tender, so they have no real value, but coin collectors would pay more than their old face value for them.

Edited by blankster

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Or is the global economy based an an abstract phenomenon that's turned out to be different from what we thought it was?

I know coins and notes exist and that there's a certain sum in my bank account. We're used to the idea of money not existing in the material sense but just as figures, but even that seems to be in doubt now.

You should be able to print your own anyway. The BOE give me a printed piece of paper but I can print a piece of paper myself and hand it over for a Mars bar. :unsure:

Just QE at work = people print own money to keep economy afloat!!

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You should be able to print your own anyway. The BOE give me a printed piece of paper but I can print a piece of paper myself and hand it over for a Mars bar. :unsure:

Just QE at work = people print own money to keep economy afloat!!

It is very easy to print your own money....

Write an IOU note

Write a Cheque

Open a Tab

IOU notes and Cheques are the same as bank notes, and this is essentially what central govs are doing

Edited by moosetea

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Calling Injin...calling Injin...

Ha!

It's an empty concept.

There are lots of them about at present, but mama nature is having a clear out currently via the medium of economic law.

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It is very easy to print your own money....

Write an IOU note

Write a Cheque

IOU notes and Cheques are the same as bank notes, and this is essentially what central govs are doing

Which means that any piece of paper can be used. Other people collect IOU's for services and the IOU's then become of value in there own right which can be used to buy other services, not the promise to pay with a goat as no one can be bothered collecting goats.

How often has someone rolled up to the BOE holding a £10'er and asked them to hand out the gold??

Edited by Wait & See

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Ha!

It's an empty concept.

There are lots of them about at present, but mama nature is having a clear out currently via the medium of economic law.

It's a very useful concept IMO.

Personally I would rather live in a modern industrialised society with the occasional economic recession, than live in a cave.

:)

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It's a very useful concept IMO.

Personally I would rather live in a modern industrialised society with the occasional economic recession, than live in a cave.

:)

There is a form of money that's not conceptual in nature, mind you but empirical.

But we havem't used that sort in the west for decades.

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If someone borrows £1 million against assets valued at £1 million, then they default on the loan, the assets are seized and fetch only £700K at auction, did the missing £300K ever exist in any state, abstract or material, or was it totally imaginary?

Edited by blankster

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Or is the global economy based an an abstract phenomenon that's turned out to be different from what we thought it was?

I think it's turned out to be exactly what we knew it was - a medium of exchange ultimately backed by human labour and intellect.

What has happened over the past 10 years or so is that some clever bankers/mathematicians kind of forgot this and started playing with money as though it were an abstract concept amenable to mathematical modelling and manipulation. Perhaps because money ceased largely to be notes and coins and became figures on a screen, the concept of abstract money was more easily adopted to the extent that whatever mathematical contortions could be performed with numerals could equally be applied to money.

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If someone borrows £1 million against assets valued at £1 million, then they default on the loan, the assets are seized and fetch only £700K at auction, did the missing £300K ever exist in any state, abstract or material, or was it totally imaginary?

Why do we also allow people with no assets to use and borrow money??

Edited by Wait & See

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If someone borrows £1 million against assets valued at £1 million, then they default on the loan, the assets are seized and fetch only £700K at auction, did the missing £300K ever exist in any state, abstract or material, or was it totally imaginary?

If you're holding a pound coin does it exist?

If you drop it down the back of the couch and can't find it does it exist?

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Guest UK Debt Slave
Or is the global economy based an an abstract phenomenon that's turned out to be different from what we thought it was?

I know coins and notes exist and that there's a certain sum in my bank account. We're used to the idea of money not existing in the material sense but just as figures, but even that seems to be in doubt now.

Did the trillions of dollars lost in the sub-prime disater ever exist? Or did we just think it existed?

But even then, I have a few old pre-decimal pennies and shilling and a half-crown. They are not legal tender, so they have no real value, but coin collectors would pay more than their old face value for them.

Money (bank credit) is only real if people continue to work and give it value. If people cannot continue to service debt, the system will collapse because the thing that gives debt value ceases to exist.

It's very feasible we are heading towards this scenario

The amount of cash in circulation is so miniscule, it shouldn't even be considered.

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Money (bank credit) is only real if people continue to work and give it value. If people cannot continue to service debt, the system will collapse because the thing that gives debt value ceases to exist.

It's very feasible we are heading towards this scenario

The amount of cash in circulation is so miniscule, it shouldn't even be considered.

So why not allow individuals to print cash in order to pay debt??

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If someone borrows £1 million against assets valued at £1 million, then they default on the loan, the assets are seized and fetch only £700K at auction, did the missing £300K ever exist in any state, abstract or material, or was it totally imaginary?

Well yes; as a promise which was based on other promises add infinitum

If i promise you a ton of grain from next year's harvest for mending my car, the grain doesn't yet exist, but the arrangment and my liability does

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Everything Injin can do, I can do meta:

10 if "Do numbers exist?" then

20 print "Yes, of course it does - are you stupid?"

30 else

40 print "No, of course not you blithering idiot. Were you born this dumb?"

50 endif

I hope that helps. This answer brought to you by the ancient Greeks, Romans, Babylonians and some dodgy folk who some say were Arabic from the days before they discovered religion.

Edited by A.steve

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Everything Injin can do, I can do meta:

10 if "Do numbers exist?" then

20 print "Yes, of course it does - are you stupid?"

30 else

40 print "No, of course not you blithering idiot. Were you born this dumb?"

50 endif

I hope that helps. This answer brought to you by the ancient Greeks, Romans, Babylonians and some dodgy folk who some say were Arabic from the days before they discovered religion.

Do numbers exist?

No. They are merely observations derivided from the consistency of matter.

Can we use the concept of numbers to measure out real things?

Yes, orivided those real things are reasonjable stable in their properties.

Therefore the only valid applications for numbers is to parcel up real stuff.

What happens when we use a concept without it being inferior to real world instances? We get a right mess, every singl etime, usually dictatorship politically.

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I think the best way for me to find the answer to my orginal question is for me to win the Lottery jackpot.

Then you'll just have, either, a large pile of material that was once tree, or, a six figure number made up of pixels on a screen.

Mmm, doesn't sound too convincing, this money. :unsure:

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