Making The Most Of The Global Workforce

[OnlyMe]

Running towards the precipice......

http://www.computing.co.uk/computing/featu...lobal-workforce

While cost reduction remains the single biggest driver for sourcing IT functions overseas, gaining access to skills that are difficult to find at home is an increasingly important motivating factor for many organisations.

EquaTerra, an independent outsourcing advisory firm, recently published its annual outsourcing service provider performance study. It found that more UK firms are looking to offshore than in previous years – 63 per cent in the 2008-2009 survey compared with 54 per cent in 2007-2008.

[babesagainstmachines]

They will get the shit software they deserve then.

[Tiger Woods?]

They will get the shit software they deserve then.

Why pay lots of money for shit British software when you can pay less for shit Asian/Russian software?

I've come to the conclusion that, in general, if you want good software it has to be produced as a labour of love...employees generally don't produce really good software.

[wonderpup]

They will get the shit software they deserve then

In my experience the people making the decision to outsource the work tend not be the people who end up dealing with the mess. It's the classic 'bankster gambit'- collect the bonus upfront for cost savings, and let some other guy take the consequences.

I have in the past spent more time cleaning up outsourced work than it would have taken me to do the work from scratch.

But when I pointed this out to the person who made the decision to outsource, their attitude seemed to be that as I was a full time employee of the company, that my time was somehow 'cost free'- Bizzare, but that was the logic being applied.

[laurejon]

When someone starts in the business they may make tea and just help out. As the years go buy they learn different skills and grow with the business. After a decade or so some make it to become architects, project managers, sales support and business development managers.

When you offshore in the short term thats great, the savings are absolutely mega fcking humungus. In fact the savings are so good it gives the Board some fantastic bonus's on earnings.

However ten years down the line, there is nobody around that has the skills to win new business, there is nobody around to manage the project, and there is nobody around in the sales departement that can support it on a technical level.

Result is you have just shot yourself in the foot, but of course that doesnt matter because the Board have moved on to another company bonus's in hand, and the process starts all over again.

Any ideas why this Governments IT projects have been the biggest failures despite using offshore workers ?

Go Figure.

[laurejon]

In my experience the people making the decision to outsource the work tend not be the people who end up dealing with the mess. It's the classic 'bankster gambit'- collect the bonus upfront for cost savings, and let some other guy take the consequences.

I have in the past spent more time cleaning up outsourced work than it would have taken me to do the work from scratch.

But when I pointed this out to the person who made the decision to outsource, their attitude seemed to be that as I was a full time employee of the company, that my time was somehow 'cost free'- Bizzare, but that was the logic being applied.

Similar story

I worked for a very large Global IT Organisation and decide four years ago that although I loved the job I would take a chance and go see the world. I left and after a couple of weeks I decided to change my mind (Long Story). So I rang my old company and they were happy to have me back, albeit going through the process of taking four months to get it signed off by the bean counters. Meanwhile my old manager was having to pay people double time in overtime to make up for the shortfall in the team.

When he told the bean counters that it was ridiculous as they were paying double the money for the same role they explained this was not so. They explained the money for overtime came out of a different pot than the departments budget!!!.

[D.C.]

Why pay lots of money for shit British software when you can pay less for shit Asian/Russian software?

I've come to the conclusion that, in general, if you want good software it has to be produced as a labour of love...employees generally don't produce really good software.

TBH, Brits, Americans, Germans & Russians are pretty good on the software front.

My personal experience of working with Indian IT has been disastrous everytime. No matter how detailed the brief they always seem to find a way of interpreting it in a completely different way that saves them time and means you just fix it doing free overtime :angry:

[laurejon]

And you outsourced your communications to India to take advantage of their skills ?

[Cogs]

Someone here was talking about unfilled vacancies £40k+ for Java! Simply insane unless the applicant is on a par with Knuth or Dijkstra (in which case why the hell would they be p1ssing about with Java?). I'd have thought an appropriate pay packet would be in the region of 14-20k depending on experience and seniority (adding a UK weighting there to the global going rate of about $9k a year).

It is clear that IT outsourcing hasn't gone far enough if there are still such ludicrously inflated fat cat wages on offer for it. Seems worse than banking really when you consider the skills are in wide supply and aren't very hard to acquire (a few months study for anyone with a background in a decent subject; maths, physics etc). Given that every middle-manager in the land has a hard-on for a new IT system (and government isn't immune) thats a tax on all of us.

Perhaps an "Empire Windrush 2.0" is required to expedite the movement of qualified talent to blighty? Is there a government agency that can help people make contact with high quality value for money overseas providers? Is the EU pulling its weight in this area? I think I might write to my MP.

[Tiger Woods?]

Someone here was talking about unfilled vacancies £40k+ for Java! Simply insane unless the applicant is on a par with Knuth or Dijkstra (in which case why the hell would they be p1ssing about with Java?). I'd have thought an appropriate pay packet would be in the region of 14-20k depending on experience and seniority (adding a UK weighting there to the global going rate of about $9k a year).

You won't get anyone good for £20k, and why should you? - writing good software requires people with brains and people with a bit of nouse have a market value based on the opportunity cost of working for you. The true productivity difference between a good programmer and an average programmer can easily be 10 to 100 fold. My general experience has been that it is much, much better in terms of productivity (and maintainability) to hire one good person at £65k than 3 at £20k. The quality, flexibility and maintainability (and volume) of code produced tends to be incomparable. In fact, £20k programmers often have negative productivity.

As for your comments about Java...I have to disagree. Most of the Java code I have run into has been more maintainable and less buggy than the C++/C/latest Microsoft crud (who have the habit of deprecating with extreme prejudice major object methods/properties on a whim) that I have had the misfortune of dealing with. Not having to deal with every last little aspect of memory management and having a large standard library of useful functions is not the sign of a bad language. In fact, it allows compiler optimisations that cannot be done in C++ because of the "freedom" allowed with pointers etc.

Edited May 20, 2009 by D'oh

[Pindar]

Someone here was talking about unfilled vacancies £40k+ for Java! Simply insane unless the applicant is on a par with Knuth or Dijkstra (in which case why the hell would they be p1ssing about with Java?). I'd have thought an appropriate pay packet would be in the region of 14-20k depending on experience and seniority (adding a UK weighting there to the global going rate of about $9k a year).

It is clear that IT outsourcing hasn't gone far enough if there are still such ludicrously inflated fat cat wages on offer for it. Seems worse than banking really when you consider the skills are in wide supply and aren't very hard to acquire (a few months study for anyone with a background in a decent subject; maths, physics etc). Given that every middle-manager in the land has a hard-on for a new IT system (and government isn't immune) thats a tax on all of us.

Perhaps an "Empire Windrush 2.0" is required to expedite the movement of qualified talent to blighty? Is there a government agency that can help people make contact with high quality value for money overseas providers? Is the EU pulling its weight in this area? I think I might write to my MP.

Ha! you think £40K is "fat cat".

[Tiger Woods?]

It is clear that IT outsourcing hasn't gone far enough if there are still such ludicrously inflated fat cat wages on offer for it. Seems worse than banking really when you consider the skills are in wide supply and aren't very hard to acquire (a few months study for anyone with a background in a decent subject; maths, physics etc). Given that every middle-manager in the land has a hard-on for a new IT system (and government isn't immune) thats a tax on all of us.

You clearly understand nothing about developing robust commercial software. Learning the syntax of a language is just the beginning. To become a good developer requires a lot of experience and the right attitude. I know a lot of programmers. I have hired quite a few programmers. Many of them are/were complete rubbish. Their presence actually slows down development and chews up good developers time, i.e. negative productivity. I have a small list of people who I now will entrust work to. Those that are good I cherish, because they are worth their weight in gold.

Edited May 20, 2009 by D'oh

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

Someone here was talking about unfilled vacancies £40k+ for Java! Simply insane unless the applicant is on a par with Knuth or Dijkstra (in which case why the hell would they be p1ssing about with Java?). I'd have thought an appropriate pay packet would be in the region of 14-20k depending on experience and seniority (adding a UK weighting there to the global going rate of about $9k a year).

It is clear that IT outsourcing hasn't gone far enough if there are still such ludicrously inflated fat cat wages on offer for it. Seems worse than banking really when you consider the skills are in wide supply and aren't very hard to acquire (a few months study for anyone with a background in a decent subject; maths, physics etc). Given that every middle-manager in the land has a hard-on for a new IT system (and government isn't immune) thats a tax on all of us.

Perhaps an "Empire Windrush 2.0" is required to expedite the movement of qualified talent to blighty? Is there a government agency that can help people make contact with high quality value for money overseas providers? Is the EU pulling its weight in this area? I think I might write to my MP.

You haven't the first clue about this subject.

[herbert_goon]

It's 80/20

A good techie can do the 20% of things that other 80% haven't got the understanding/ability/experience to do. It's that 20% of "hard stuff" that generates 80% of the benefit.

I have worked extensively with outsourced projects in India, and there are some good people.

[DeepLurker]

Someone here was talking about unfilled vacancies £40k+ for Java! Simply insane unless the applicant is on a par with Knuth or Dijkstra (in which case why the hell would they be p1ssing about with Java?). I'd have thought an appropriate pay packet would be in the region of 14-20k depending on experience and seniority (adding a UK weighting there to the global going rate of about $9k a year).

It is clear that IT outsourcing hasn't gone far enough if there are still such ludicrously inflated fat cat wages on offer for it. Seems worse than banking really when you consider the skills are in wide supply and aren't very hard to acquire (a few months study for anyone with a background in a decent subject; maths, physics etc). Given that every middle-manager in the land has a hard-on for a new IT system (and government isn't immune) thats a tax on all of us.

The majority of IT projects fail to meet some or all of their targets.

I'd suggest that a major reason for this is that the staff is not up to the job - and the only way to fix this is to pay the staff more in order to attract the best talent.

I agree with what other posters have said - a good programmer at 60K is more productive than three 20K average ones.

[Cogs]

You clearly understand nothing about developing robust commercial software. Learning the syntax of a language is just the beginning. To become a good developer requires a lot of experience and the right attitude. I know a lot of programmers. I have hired quite a few programmers. Many of them are/were complete rubbish. Their presence actually slows down development and chews up good developers time, i.e. negative productivity. I have a small list of people who I now will entrust work to. Those that are good I cherish, because they are worth their weight in gold.

No, I was just being rude (trolling actually) given that I'm a bit tired of programmers queuing up to belittle every other trade and profession under the sun and accuse them of being overpaid for easy work anyone can do. Amused to see some familiar faces who as Jones would say, don't like it up themselves. Gosh chaps, you mean to say that if you actually have a bit of in-depth knowledge things aren't as simple as they seem from the outside position of being irrationally angry and jealous and believing everything you read in the papers? Perhaps I should go on for dozens of pages listing random anecdotes phrased in emotive terms as proof for my position and give you the full treatment? In fact I think I've gone far enough already so I'll stop now. TBH I thought I'd included sufficient Shibboleths to give myself away...

In truth I strongly agree with you and have found the same thing.

[Guest Fedup]

No, I was just being rude (trolling actually) given that I'm a bit tired of programmers queuing up to belittle every other trade and profession under the sun and accuse them of being overpaid for easy work anyone can do. Amused to see some familiar faces who as Jones would say, don't like it up themselves. Gosh chaps, you mean to say that if you actually have a bit of in-depth knowledge things aren't as simple as they seem from the outside position of being irrationally angry and jealous and believing everything you read in the papers? Perhaps I should go on for dozens of pages listing random anecdotes phrased in emotive terms as proof for my position and give you the full treatment? In fact I think I've gone far enough already so I'll stop now. TBH I thought I'd included sufficient Shibboleths to give myself away...

In truth I strongly agree with you and have found the same thing.

I saw this was a troll post from a 50yd distance and am dissapointed that the reaction wasn't as strong as i'd hoped. The mention of Knuth and Dijkstra ruined it really.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Fedup

[Fairies Wear Boots]

When the managers have outsourced payroll, accounts, IT, etc to India, they might as well start outsourcing the management there too!

[Tiger Woods?]

No, I was just being rude (trolling actually) given that I'm a bit tired of programmers queuing up to belittle every other trade and profession under the sun and accuse them of being overpaid for easy work anyone can do. Amused to see some familiar faces who as Jones would say, don't like it up themselves. Gosh chaps, you mean to say that if you actually have a bit of in-depth knowledge things aren't as simple as they seem from the outside position of being irrationally angry and jealous and believing everything you read in the papers? Perhaps I should go on for dozens of pages listing random anecdotes phrased in emotive terms as proof for my position and give you the full treatment? In fact I think I've gone far enough already so I'll stop now. TBH I thought I'd included sufficient Shibboleths to give myself away...

In truth I strongly agree with you and have found the same thing.

I've run into so many managers who would write what you wrote without a single filing of irony. In fact, I am consulting in a business with precisely that attitude at present. They won't pay proper developer wages, so they get the dregs...and all the IT projects I see around here are in a mess for that very reason...which might explain why I bit as harshly as I did...the attitude you express is rife throughout middle sized companies in the UK.

(I'm not being paid as a developer, but as a "business consultant", which basically means I get about 3x as much for doing a job (i.e. fiddling with Excel) requiring 1/3rd the skill. Completely insane. Last week, I stumbled across another project in the company run by "managers" which falls within one of my specialities (experimental design/statistics). They somehow managed to convince another business to give them 6 figure sums to run an experiment which the "managers" designed. They have no notion of controls, statistical power, conflation of variables etc...more lucrative work coming my way fixing their mess. How these companies survive, and indeed thrive, I do not know.)

[Pindar]

When the managers have outsourced payroll, accounts, IT, etc to India, they might as well start outsourcing the management there too!

At some point the children of the outsourcing managers will realise what a terrible mistake their parents made.

[Cogs]

I've run into so many managers who would write what you wrote without a single filing of irony. In fact, I am consulting in a business with precisely that attitude at present. They won't pay proper developer wages, so they get the dregs...and all the IT projects I see around here are in a mess for that very reason...which might explain why I bit as harshly as I did...the attitude you express is rife throughout middle sized companies in the UK.

(I'm not being paid as a developer, but as a "business consultant", which basically means I get about 3x as much for doing a job (i.e. fiddling with Excel) requiring 1/3rd the skill. Completely insane. Last week, I stumbled across another project in the company run by "managers" which falls within one of my specialities (experimental design/statistics). They somehow managed to convince another business to give them 6 figure sums to run an experiment which the "managers" designed. They have no notion of controls, statistical power, conflation of variables etc...more lucrative work coming my way fixing their mess. How these companies survive, and indeed thrive, I do not know.)

I know a guy who is supposed to be in a department of seven. They have six unfilled vacancies because they want to pay less for a professional engineer (chartered, mind) than they pay for starting accountants. This is an engineering company incidentally; they have exactly x1 (one) person who can sign off on all the work they do for regulatory purposes. He has had things brought to him in hospital to run over the calcs and sign. He also has meetings with four other people, all of whom are "managing" him. This in a job, remember, less important to the firm than one of their trainee accountants. He is (unsurprisingly) leaving ASAP. My brother is also in the same boat but not at quite such an extreme level of insanity. OK so a sample size of n=2 isn't quite sufficient to draw any hard conclusions but it doesn't look to clever does it.

Be as harsh as you like, I was being deeply unpleasant!

Edited May 20, 2009 by Cogs

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

It's 80/20

A good techie can do the 20% of things that other 80% haven't got the understanding/ability/experience to do. It's that 20% of "hard stuff" that generates 80% of the benefit.

I have worked extensively with outsourced projects in India, and there are some good people.

It's true - they end up flown over to the UK, put up in hotels and paid far more than their peers in India, and move on somewhere else double-quick. Overall cost? Same as someone in the UK.