The Public Sector Bubble

[Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable]

Ill bring the tick boxes, pencils and rubbers

You'll have to go through the external agency set up to liaise with our procurement department for those.

And note that 'rubbers' is deemed sexually provocative and could end up in misinterpretation by one of the secretarial staff leading to a sexual harrassment lawsuit. Please refer to them as 'graphite reduction tools'.

[Guest sillybear2]

course, public sector workers are like QE.. they are paid from the public purse, into which they are taxed and that goes to pay for the PS workers who are then taxed.....

Public sector cash flow :-

[Bloo Loo]

You'll have to go through the external agency set up to liaise with our procurement department for those.

And note that 'rubbers' is deemed sexually provocative and could end up in misinterpretation by one of the secretarial staff leading to a sexual harrassment lawsuit. Please refer to them as 'graphite reduction tools'.

Ive just been PMd by Sibley....says the word pencil makes him feel queasyand his eyes water spontaneously, could I please stop using the word please?

ive sent a memo to HR and legal for a ruling

Edited March 19, 2009 by Bloo Loo

[moneyscam]

yes, but ideally if the public sector was as small as it should be private business would make up the gap and then some. In countries with a high proportions of public sector spending have weak private sectors. But countries with small public sectors have very vibrant private sectors, The far east being the classic example.

This is what my old Uni Economics professor more than 20 years ago described as "Leviathan" - the "crowding out" of the private sector until they finally kill the golden goose which gave them all their eggs in the first place. As someone else has said, this is just plate spinning until they inevitably come crashing to the ground.

[Guest sillybear2]

Ive just been PMd by Sibley....says the word pencil makes him feel queasyand his eyes water spontaneously, could I please stop using the word please?

ive sent a memo to HR and legal for a ruling

I take exception to your "ticking boxes" comment, we're meant to be constantly thinking outside the box, so you need to come up with a new name for your information containment and assessment units / boxes.

Edited March 19, 2009 by sillybear2

[Guest sillybear2]

This is what my old Uni Economics professor more than 20 years ago described as "Leviathan" - the "crowding out" of the private sector until they finally kill the golden goose which gave them all their eggs in the first place. As someone else has said, this is just plate spinning until they inevitably come crashing to the ground.

Schumpeter and capitalism's demise

Schumpeter's most popular book in English is probably Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy. This book opens with a treatment of Karl Marx. While he is sympathetic to Marx's theory that capitalism will collapse and will be replaced by socialism, Schumpeter concludes that this will not come about in the way Marx predicted. To describe it he borrowed the phrase "creative destruction," and made it famous by using it to describe a process in which the old ways of doing things are endogenously destroyed and replaced by new ways.

Schumpeter's theory is that the success of capitalism will lead to a form of corporatism and a fostering of values hostile to capitalism, especially among intellectuals. The intellectual and social climate needed to allow entrepreneurship to thrive will not exist in advanced capitalism; it will be replaced by socialism in some form. There will not be a revolution, but merely a trend in parliaments to elect social democratic parties of one stripe or another. He argued that capitalism's collapse from within will come about as democratic majorities vote for the creation of a welfare state and place restrictions upon entrepreneurship that will burden and destroy the capitalist structure. Schumpeter emphasizes throughout this book that he is analyzing trends, not engaging in political advocacy. In his vision, the intellectual class will play an important role in capitalism's demise. The term "intellectuals" denotes a class of persons in a position to develop critiques of societal matters for which they are not directly responsible and able to stand up for the interests of strata to which they themselves do not belong. One of the great advantages of capitalism, he argues, is that as compared with pre-capitalist periods, when education was a privilege of the few, more and more people acquire (higher) education. The availability of fulfilling work is however limited and this, coupled with the experience of unemployment, produces discontent. The intellectual class is then able to organise protest and develop critical ideas.

In Schumpeter's view, socialism will ensure that the production of goods and services is directed towards meeting the authentic needs of people and will overcome some innate tendencies of capitalism such as conjecture fluctuation, unemployment and waning acceptance of the system.

[Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable]

In the end, we're all just parasites dependent on the sun.

[KingBingo]

This is what my old Uni Economics professor more than 20 years ago described as "Leviathan" - the "crowding out" of the private sector until they finally kill the golden goose which gave them all their eggs in the first place. As someone else has said, this is just plate spinning until they inevitably come crashing to the ground.

Yes exactly what it is. And the poster i originally quote is a case example of such. His business is being squeesed because there is only public sector.

[ExecutiveSlaveBox]

Top talent should be holding their own innovating in the private sector...

Errr.. quite. Twas a joke about top talent in the public sector. I thought the laughing smileys would have given it away but I think I was being too subtle.

[Orsino]

As far as I'm concerned the only thing socialism does quickly and efficiently is ruin the country.

[piece of paper]

Is Parkinson's Law still in print?

p-o-p

EDIT: Found one extract - "‘WORK EXPANDS SO AS TO FILL THE TIME AVAILABLE FOR ITS COMPLETION’

Worth a read for those who haven't.

http://www.heretical.com/miscella/parkinsl.html

Edited March 19, 2009 by piece of paper

[piece of paper]

Is Parkinson's Law still in print?

p-o-p

EDIT: Found one extract - "‘WORK EXPANDS SO AS TO FILL THE TIME AVAILABLE FOR ITS COMPLETION’

Worth a read for those who haven't.

http://www.heretical.com/miscella/parkinsl.html

Shameless bump but the above was written over 50 years ago!

p-o-p

[Injin]

Shameless bump but the above was written over 50 years ago!

p-o-p

Good stuff, I had forgotten that!

[crashmonitor]

Almost all New Labour's GDP growth has derived from the lavish expenditure of the public sector.And so much of the private sector is dependent on the budget coming their way.It was highlighted by 79 multi-million pound building projects now being in danger of being shelved at various colleges today.The IT industry relies on the wanton waste of the public sector to upgrade its systems on a hugely short cycle.I would love to get my hands on the flat screen monitors my partner's Uni has just skipped.

Others industries that are going to suffer is railway and air traffic,Business class is the preserve of Vice Chancellors and politicians etc..And finally only superannuated public sector pensioners have any discressionary expenditure these days.My own business is wholey dependent on their six or seven figure superannuated pots .

It is frightening what will happen when the music stops.

Edited March 19, 2009 by crashmonitor

[Cogs]

If the Tories take power and they so much as mention cutting spending the Labour party howl about cutting nurses, teachers and police. Of course they actually want more of them, they want less, far less, middle management non-jobs.

Since our previous rather bad tempered discussion I have gone away and read the Tory policy documents. Anyhow, you are quite right. I was particularly surprised by the NHS Reform plan and that the Tories had actually spotted how Labour had been rigging the game in the favour of private sector suppliers for which they deserve a lot of credit, being who they are.

I don't think it is that people are stupid though, I'd imagine most won't go and download a stack of pdfs, they need to articulate their core message a bit better. They have the audience that they have, berating them for their low intelligence isn't really going to get anyone anywhere, they need to sell simple ideas clearly. For example, while the autonomy agenda has been pushed, people aren't sure what this really means. Post-code lotteries are a big fear for example. Now this is pre-empted and dealt with explicitly in both the health and schools documents but despite being interested in politics (probably more so than most although that isn't a massive claim to be making), I've yet to see a member of the shadow cabinet explain that.

[Nicholas Cage]

Not to be pedantic - I'd like to think if I knew enough I'd have an opinion, I take it you mikelivingston and everyone else has a firm grasp of the figures involved. Can you tell me what the numbers actually are? Its tough to know about the anatomy of the bubble without seeing the numbers - I want to reiterate I'm not trying to be pedantic. I suspect you're right but I'd like a bit of meat on the bones of the proposition.

try http://www.statistics.gov.uk/

[abharrisson]

It would be relatively easy to come up with £15/£20bn a year in cost savings... pensions, quangos, 500,000 extra civil servants under Blair, reform tax collecting system cutting out those that cost more to collect than they earn, cut unnecessary projects (eg new nuclear subs we don't control) etc etc.

The problem is on the list would surely be MP's pensions and expenses PLUS 40% of people employed by the public purse are not going to vote for the party that for instance suddenly transforms their pensions away from their current gilt edged status.

I remain aghast at the wastage in the public sector, most people can see through the argument that cutting expenditure leads to a cut in services, it doesn't..... BUT I suspect most people also despair when they see people like Cameron "pretending" to want to cut the cost of public service.... to be taken seriuosly he'd have to declare in a manifesto that MP's pension arrangements and expenses arrangements would be changed followed by the same for the civil service and local govt followed by the same for doctors , nurses, policemen, fire fighters etc etc...... once he has done that he can then crack on with cutting out the quangos and reducing the headcount..... you'd quite easily get to £20bn per year BUT the first step should be some honesty and a proposal to slice back MP's payments would be the natural starting point... never going to happen sadly I feel

[bearbullfence]

Business is not going under (yet) due to prudent business desicions taken in last 18 months, including chasing public sector contracts.

From what I see the public sector is run in a disgraceful fashion, so many different departments with overlapping responsibilities just removes the accountability. Layers of quangos/ comittees and departments all doing similar things. Surely there has to be a better way.

I would stand up and say something in public but I would fear for the repercussions for the business and the people I employ.

I speak to MPs and councillors (off the record) but nothing ever changes.

I feel like I have broken my cherry ...my first post to get a reply! You HPC veterans are a tough act to get involved with, you are always a step ahead of us newbies!

Just got my council tax bill through for this year. At the bottom is a small box that says that the council are required to specify the cost savings they made in the year. Mine says that they made 12% cost savings last year... council tax for this year has gone up by 4% above last year's bill... I make that a 18% increase in council tax this year. Robbery.

[jp1]

My remedy is to cut public sector pay, by at least 10% across the board, and implement a £50k cap senior posts like Council Chief Executives, Directors and Quango cheifs. Make at least 600,000 Civil servants redundant with minimum severance pay, why do we need 600,000 more than we had 1997 and also to declare their pensions reduced. These pensions are clearly unfunded and so in all reality don't exist.

I'd suggest a simpler, broad-stroke approach

Start with sacking anyone with the words 'startegic', 'change', 'transformation' or 'performance' in their job title - should lop about 25% off the public sector wages budget, with no noticable effect on services

I'd then cut every public sector employess final salary pension in half - no not freeze, or close to new entrants, just cut the whole thing by 50% - just like everyone elses pension thats dropped in value thanks to the market crash - call it part of a new 'fairness agenda'

[judas]

Yes, yes and yes.

Time is now to deal with the pension time bomb as well. The government has a perfect excuse if one was ever needed to get rid of a pension scheme which is simply impossible to fund.

Yes.

We need to purge our bloated and inneficient non wealth creating public sector.

A Thatcherite assault is required, except this time with more incentive going back into the industrial private sector and science.

[bootfair]

Hey looks like you might need to reach for the bananas that grow on the grapevine. Seems to me this confusion over terms of reference really needs to be addressed before we can move forward. Conference, everyone? Champneys or the Savoy?

Ive just been PMd by Sibley....says the word pencil makes him feel queasyand his eyes water spontaneously, could I please stop using the word please?

ive sent a memo to HR and legal for a ruling

[Guest sillybear2]

Nothing will ever change until it's forced upon the government, Labour won't stop at anything so it's pretty obvious where it will eventually end, the IMF conditions applied to our eventual bailout will require substantial cuts, regardless of which party that's in government.

Edited March 19, 2009 by sillybear2

[jborg]

I take exception to your "ticking boxes" comment, we're meant to be constantly thinking outside the box, so you need to come up with a new name for your information containment and assessment units / boxes.

Also i feel that constantly using 'ticks' is discriminating against crosses. I feel that there should be some diversity policy implementation happening, and maybe some training organised to bring you all back in line. We'll also celebrate cross history day at great expense.

Yes i work in the NHS and that's how it is.

[KingBingo]

Since our previous rather bad tempered discussion I have gone away and read the Tory policy documents. Anyhow, you are quite right.

Ah, great. And sorry for the rather OTT response before, I had mistaken you for an old fashion leftie/idealist who just wanted to cling to outdated dogma rather than engage in any meaningful sense. You have clearly proved me wrong on that one.

Just wanted to come back on a couple of points.

I was particularly surprised by the NHS Reform plan and that the Tories had actually spotted how Labour had been rigging the game in the favour of private sector suppliers for which they deserve a lot of credit, being who they are.

Well in all fairness they have never been the party of any business, nor the party of big business like Labour have remodeled themselves, rather the party of good business. They are happy to support good business as these are the only true creators of jobs and wealth, they are equally happy to let bad businesses fail. Which of your looking for a criticism puts them in a real bind now. They instinctively want to let all the banks fail, but know the recession would be short and very sharp. Strangely many now favor short term nationalization. Odd reversal.

they need to articulate their core message a bit better. They have the audience that they have, berating them for their low intelligence isn't really going to get anyone anywhere, they need to sell simple ideas clearly

They do talk about a lot of stuff, but when your dependant on the BBC to get your message across to 90% of the population it can be very hard. My sig has a link to a book that was written by a former Today program correspondent that got sick of all the left wing bias and selective story selection. If you want to hear more from the Tories lots have blogs. I favour http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/ myself. But he does not focus on health matters much if that is your interest.

For example, while the autonomy agenda has been pushed, people aren't sure what this really means. Post-code lotteries are a big fear for example. Now this is pre-empted and dealt with explicitly in both the health and schools documents but despite being interested in politics (probably more so than most although that isn't a massive claim to be making), I've yet to see a member of the shadow cabinet explain that.

Good example. I have know Shadow ministers worry about this exact point. They belive in greater autonomy, and if you ask the public if they want local accountability for their police, schools and hospitals they immediately reply an emphatic YES. But then as soon as it goes against any one individual for anything, you have the Today program running stories about the post code lottery.

If you have any ideas about how to bypass the BBC, or to get the case out through them please say.

Edited March 19, 2009 by KingBingo

[InternationalRockSuperstar]

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle5581225.ece

‘Soviet’ Britain swells amid the recession

January 25, 2009

...

The study of “Soviet Britain” has found the government’s share of output and expenditure has now surged to more than 60% in some areas of England and over 70% elsewhere.

...