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Sleepwalking Into A Police State - This Is Unbelievable


Methinkshe

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Guest eight
Yes, I would, or at least a pencil and paper. Mental arithmetic is not my strong point, and numerical arithmetic is left behind very early on in a maths career.

I know a girl with eighteen A* GCSE's, including maths.

Couldn't divide 18 by 3 without a calculator "because of the pressure".

eight

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Does that mean one must lose all discretion? If so, then Tesco checkout chavs have suddenly been catapulted into the position of ultimate arbiters in terms of socially desirable behaviour. Ain't that bloody great! The effing nitwits end up calling the tune because theyr're so effing stupid.

The cashier did use their discretion they decided to not allow the sale as they are perfectly entitled to do.

.

Now you might rant on about "Tesco Chavs" like some nasty wannabe middle class Hyacynth Bucket on steriods as though they are the sh1t on your shoe and must do your bidding but that is not the case.

.

In this single instance of interaction one person doing their job decided not to take any risks whatsoever and ere heavily on the side of caution. Perhaps they were new. Perhaps they were unsure of the law. But they are scum right and should do as they are told? Specifically what you tell them?

.

You don't like the fact that someone who you see as being in a far lower social position than you had the bility to say no to you or one of your unholy offspring. Its the same rage we all get at parking attendants. These situations are particulalrly painful for you becuase of your own feelings of inadequacy and status anxiety.

.

This isnt about a police state it is all about you.

.

ST

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Ah, so you clever check-out cashiers instantly recognise potential fraud when mummy and daddy allow 2 year old to pass the debit card. Well done you!

Ah, so 2 yr old could have stolen a card (albeit that mum and dad are there)...

id like to point out my posts are of no relation to this event. if someone or an employee cannot use their comon sense in this matter i would not want them working for me. nor would i probably trust in their ability to tie thier own shoes in the morning.

try reading the whole topic before posting on it. :rolleyes:

What the f**ck do you mean "above the rules? What F*****g rules? That I cannot buy a bottle of wine if I happen to have in tow one of my underage kids? Who the hell do you think you are to pronounce on my personal shopping behaviour? Like: Tesco check-out chavs now rule the world? Get real!)

hmm that would be the rule that is actually the LAW that credit cards are NOT valid forms of proof of age despite requiring to be 18 to have one. and what i was replying to as quoted here

Interesting. My wife was once refused service in Morrisons as she looked under 18, when trying to purchase a bottle of cooking brandy

But worse still, she was trying to pay with a (Morrisons branded) HSBC Credit card (min. application age 18)

Does that mean one must lose all discretion? If so, then Tesco checkout chavs have suddenly been catapulted into the position of ultimate arbiters in terms of socially desirable behaviour. Ain't that bloody great! The effing nitwits end up calling the tune because theyr're so effing stupid.
if the checkout girl "SUSPECTS" you are purchasing it for your daughter who cannot show proof of age she has every right to refuse you the sale regardless if she was to be drinking it with your permission or not at all. and she can refuse you the sale even if you are entering the premisis on your own. or at anytime in the future for that matter.
keyword suspects this is the discretion you are talking about.
Try a firing line before you bleat about your job, you lily livered pansy....

try loading some bullits next time :P

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Yes, exactly - it's the parents responsibility, not some plank jobsworths to try and decide if I'm going to get round the corner and force-feed my kids a bottle of whisky :lol:

The current rules in place are more than adequate. Youngsters will always find a way to get hold of alcohol. Unfortunately, I think there really are people out there who think it's possible to prevent the unpreventable.

Under the current Goverment I wouldn't be at all surprised to find myself with a trolley of groceries being questioned with my kids as to who will be drinking the bottle of wine poking out next to the shreddies.

unfortunitly not the law states that if a person suspects alcohal is being purchased for consuption for an underager they can refuse the sale. however if there is no suspition of this then it becomes the parents resposibility and criminal offence. however there is an obvious grey area in which if the cashier etc was found to be selling knowingly to an adult that gives to an underager the cashier could deny they knew it was for said person. but they shoulndt be taking that risk.

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But by refusing to sell the alcohol there was also an implicit accusation being made that the credit card was being used fraudulently. Yet the retailer made no effort to investigate that. In fact, minus the brandy, they'd have been quite happy to accept the card as payment.

Which is worse; selling a bottle of cooking brandy to a 17 year old, or being complicit in credit card fraud?

eight

thanks for the free shot.

of course its worse selling alcohal to a 17 year old. lost job fine prison criminal record. checkout staff and all retailers are not fraud experts able to tell which cards are fraudulent (spelling) that is the whole reason for chip and pin. if you have gone to the trouble of geting a stollen card and the pin number it is not the responsibilty of said person to make sure it is your actually propety and right to use it. however it is their responsibility not to allow that card to be used as a valid form of id.

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if the checkout girl "SUSPECTS" you are purchasing it for your daughter who cannot show proof of age she has every right to refuse you the sale regardless if she was to be drinking it with your permission or not at all. and she can refuse you the sale even if you are entering the premisis on your own. or at anytime in the future for that matter.
if they do not suspect it and can proove/argue (argue is not the word im looking for however) that in the event that person did consume alcohal bought from said till she was working on she did not knowingly allow that situation to occur. It then becomes the purchesse ie the mother's responsibilty and fine.
unfortunitly not the law states that if a person suspects alcohal is being purchased for consuption for an underager they can refuse the sale. however if there is no suspition of this then it becomes the parents resposibility and criminal offence. however there is an obvious grey area in which if the cashier etc was found to be selling knowingly to an adult that gives to an underager the cashier could deny they knew it was for said person. but they shoulndt be taking that risk.

I've completely missed something here. Since when has it been illegal to give children alcohol? I sounds like, at Christmas dinner, you can't give your fourteen year old children half a glass of wine without incriminating some checkout girl who sold you the bottle of wine.

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this is totally true. A long queue in the chemists ,so my son (aged 10) and i popped to the newsie for some strepsils for his big sis,who had a sore throat .He had a fiver in his hand ,the lady said they were 2.70 or whatever ,then looked at my son,as he handed over the money and said,"youll have to give that to your dad ,you are a minor and i cant sell them to you" .He handed the fiver to me,very confused at the futility of it ,and she took the money from me with a "thank you sir"......complete ******.

Whilst we can understand someone protecting their jobs,who make s up these rules,its a waste of time....but have illegitimate sex at 15 ,oh ,thats cool,heres the free house......WTF?

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I've completely missed something here. Since when has it been illegal to give children alcohol? I sounds like, at Christmas dinner, you can't give your fourteen year old children half a glass of wine without incriminating some checkout girl who sold you the bottle of wine.

that is the difference between onsales and offsales

it is legal for someone underage 16/17 i believe to have alcohal if the meal is purchased for by an adult is a proper sit down meal in a restraunt with seperate bar and dining area's and must be table served ie have a waiter/ waitress. adn then it may only be wine cider perry or beer.

at home then it is your resposibility but at the point of sale the cashier must follow the procedure as i have quoted many times above.

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But by refusing to sell the alcohol there was also an implicit accusation being made that the credit card was being used fraudulently.

This is part of the mindf**k.

The culture of suspicion about EVERYBODY has been carefully crafted,it makes individuals easier to control.

The sectarian stuff like muslim vs jew vs christian vs whoever is soooo last century.

Now you have to treat memnbers of your own family,next-door-neighbours,your work colleagues as POTENTIALLY(implied already are,but don't know what,and will gossip and talk like mad to glean every little snippet of everybodies lives,even cheryl cole and jade goody who I don't know but want to know every facet of their lives)guilty of SOMETHING,which has a completely miniscule chance of occurring(BUT IT MIGHT...SO BEST BE ON THE DEFENSIVE)

THIS IS [email protected] PARANOIA ON STEROIDS...AND NOW IT'S PERSONAL

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The cashier did use their discretion they decided to not allow the sale as they are perfectly entitled to do.

.

Now you might rant on about "Tesco Chavs" like some nasty wannabe middle class Hyacynth Bucket on steriods as though they are the sh1t on your shoe and must do your bidding but that is not the case.

.

In this single instance of interaction one person doing their job decided not to take any risks whatsoever and ere heavily on the side of caution. Perhaps they were new. Perhaps they were unsure of the law. But they are scum right and should do as they are told? Specifically what you tell them?

.

You don't like the fact that someone who you see as being in a far lower social position than you had the bility to say no to you or one of your unholy offspring. Its the same rage we all get at parking attendants. These situations are particulalrly painful for you becuase of your own feelings of inadequacy and status anxiety.

.

This isnt about a police state it is all about you.

.

ST

I tend to agree.
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that is the difference between onsales and offsales

it is legal for someone underage 16/17 i believe to have alcohal if the meal is purchased for by an adult is a proper sit down meal in a restraunt with seperate bar and dining area's and must be table served ie have a waiter/ waitress. adn then it may only be wine cider perry or beer.

at home then it is your resposibility but at the point of sale the cashier must follow the procedure as i have quoted many times above.

I genuinely thought there was no minimum age for the consumption of alcohol. A minimum age that it can be sold to you - yes, a minimum age you can drink it in a licensed bar - yes, but no minimum age for drinking it. When did the law change?

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I genuinely thought there was no minimum age for the consumption of alcohol. A minimum age that it can be sold to you - yes, a minimum age you can drink it in a licensed bar - yes, but no minimum age for drinking it. When did the law change?

in all honesty i dont know if there is an actual minimum age for the consumption of alcohal. the restrictions are on the purchasing for underage with the intent of consumption. i only know of the parts of the law that apply to my industry and the posts discussed above.

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Guest eight
of course its worse selling alcohal to a 17 year old.

Not only do I disagree, I think you've completely failed to understand my point.

eight

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Not only do I disagree, I think you've completely failed to understand my point.

eight

are you trying to say that i missed the point that you believe that in refusing to allow the card to be used as form of id for proof of age but allowing it to be used to pay for the rest of the shopping when it could be fraud but the cashier is overlooking that?

id refer you to my answer further above that

checkout staff and all retailers are not fraud experts able to tell which cards are fraudulent (spelling) that is the whole reason for chip and pin. if you have gone to the trouble of geting a stollen card and the pin number it is not the responsibilty of said person to make sure it is your actually propety and right to use it. however it is their responsibility not to allow that card to be used as a valid form of id.

as much as im enjoying this debate im getting a little fed up at having to constintly revisit quotes and statements i have made earlier just to answer a question asked after i had already answered that question.

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in all honesty i dont know if there is an actual minimum age for the consumption of alcohal. the restrictions are on the purchasing for underage with the intent of consumption. i only know of the parts of the law that apply to my industry and the posts discussed above.

Don't worry mate there's 101 people on this board who think they can tell you your job better than you know it yourself despite zero domain expereince.

.

Why don't you just ask them for some advice? And when your licence gets taken away just explain that some faceless board poster from the internet said it was "common sense".

.

:lol:

.

ST

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Guest eight
are you trying to say that i missed the point that you believe that in refusing to allow the card to be used as form of id for proof of age but allowing it to be used to pay for the rest of the shopping when it could be fraud but the cashier is overlooking that?

as much as im enjoying this debate im getting a little fed up at having to constintly revisit quotes and statements i have made earlier just to answer a question asked after i had already answered that question.

See, I now read your position now as this. So long as you have covered yourself re: the age restricted item, and somebody (you don't care who) has paid the bill, that's fine by you.

I still say that you're potentially knowingly complicit in CC fraud by your own admission (you suspect the person trying to use the card is not legally old enough to be in possession of it). But it doesn't matter so long as you're getting paid.

This incident predates chip and pin BTW.

eight

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Is this a rule that they are not allowed to sell you alcohol when you are shopping with your teenager?

So next time I go food shopping with my 14 year old..they can refuse to sell me the beer I want?

Yep, that's about the sum of it. And some ignorant chav behind the till will decide.

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But by refusing to sell the alcohol there was also an implicit accusation being made that the credit card was being used fraudulently. Yet the retailer made no effort to investigate that. In fact, minus the brandy, they'd have been quite happy to accept the card as payment.

eight

Why does refusing a sale implicate credit card fraud? All it shows is that the shop assistant is exercising their right to refuse a sale. I have refused sales before, because of abusive behaviour from people who think that they know better than me.

Don't worry mate there's 101 people on this board who think they can tell you your job better than you know it yourself despite zero domain expereince.

.

Why don't you just ask them for some advice? And when your licence gets taken away just explain that some faceless board poster from the internet said it was "common sense".

.

:lol:

.

ST

Yes because M4rk's the ONLY person on this forum EVER to have worked in retail!

Trading standards, and the other regulatory bodies, do regular blind checks on shops. Sending in under age people to buy products. I had a 17 year old trying to buy fireworks. When asked how old he said "18....tomorrow, but I'm nearly 18". Had I sold to him, even 7 hours before he was old enough, I would have risked a hefty fine. Supposing the cashier has just had a training session about blind checks? What's her first thought when a toddler hands over the card? I don't blame her in the slightest for her actions. What I do find odd is the staff who refuse alcohol sales to familes with children in tow. That's clearly as a result of over zealous managers drumming into them the danger of under age sales.

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Is this a rule that they are not allowed to sell you alcohol when you are shopping with your teenager?

So next time I go food shopping with my 14 year old..they can refuse to sell me the beer I want?

please go back and read the whole topic before posting im getting sick of repeating myself.

if the checkout girl "SUSPECTS" you are purchasing it for your daughter who cannot show proof of age she has every right to refuse you the sale regardless if she was to be drinking it with your permission or not at all. and she can refuse you the sale even if you are entering the premisis on your own. or at anytime in the future for that matter.

substitute daughter for your 14 year old son.

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please go back and read the whole topic before posting im getting sick of repeating myself.

substitute daughter for your 14 year old son.

What difference does it make whether it is a son of uncertain age or a 14 year old daughter or vice versa?

Edited for clarity.

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See, I now read your position now as this. So long as you have covered yourself re: the age restricted item, and somebody (you don't care who) has paid the bill, that's fine by you.

I still say that you're potentially knowingly complicit in CC fraud by your own admission (you suspect the person trying to use the card is not legally old enough to be in possession of it). But it doesn't matter so long as you're getting paid.

This incident predates chip and pin BTW.

eight

you really are dertermined to pick at this arnt you. the fact that chip and pin etc is in place reliquinshes (spelling) most of my responsibility of having to check if the card is fradulent or not. as i have posted above the card reader either says accepted or declined it does not give a reason nor should it to avoid potential embarassment to the customer. if the card is stollen and you somehow managed to get the pin number to use it HOW am i or a cashier supposed to know this? as long as we act assuming the UTMOST GOOD FAITH then we cannot be prossicuted for allowing a stolen card being used WITHOUT our knowledge. however we cannot allow said card to be used as a form of id when is it not legaly recognised as proof. and it is not legaly recognised as proof becuase you cannot proove the card is actually yours.

as for predating chip and pin then if the cashier thought your signiture did not match they should ask for another form of id (oh wait you didnt have any) to confirm ownership and right to use the card. however signitures are very easy to forge hence why chip and pin was introduced. in that instance if the cashier genuinly did not believe the card you used was legaly yours to use then the whole transaction should not be allowed to go through. however it seems they did so they believe the card was yours and there was no apparent evednce that it wasnt. regardless of the FACT you need to be 18 for a credit card it is not a legal form of id for the purchase of alcohal FACT!

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