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The Country Cannot Recover From This, Let Alone The Economy


KingBingo

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HOLA441
We get far to caught up with both Socialism and Capitalism in this country don't we?

The truth is that such massive changes will hopefully lead to a new area of....stupidity

to be honest, it's looking to end up like the excellent film 28 days later

you might be closer than you think with that comparison. :ph34r:

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HOLA442
100%. We saved and planned for our first, made sure we could raise her properly rather than like some white stilleto wearing chav teen on welfare. Want another but have waited 4 years because we couldn't afford it. Sure, we could have afforded it somehow but why scrimp to provide for 2 and run the risk of ruin when you can comfortably provide 1 properly and save to do the same again. Yeah, you can have kids but if it is at the risk of bringing them up in poverty and condeming them to a shitty life then I wouldn't.

Never thought money had that much to do with a happy childhood, as long as the bare necessities are covered. Ever travelled the world? Where do you see happy kids playing?

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HOLA443
Never thought money had that much to do with a happy childhood, as long as the bare necessities are covered. Ever travelled the world? Where do you see happy kids playing?

I suppose it depends on where you live in this country, but one of my neighbours moved, with his wife and kids, to our area (a decent blue collar inner city area of leeds) coughing up to move out of a nastier area of Leeds where he couldn't let his kids out because of the knife crime.

working class fella, did what he could to improve the lot of his family with a better rented house. Man U fan so every silver lining has a cloud I guess ;)

Edited by Si1
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HOLA444
I am increasingly taking the view that this country is facing a demographic meltdown that can no longer be undone. Specifically I am talking about the way Labour have socially engineered a situation where over the next 30 years it will be mainly socialists and welfare dependants entering the jobs market.

If you work in the private sector by and large your less likely to vote Labour. However, if you work in the public sector or are on welfare you’re far more likely to vote Labour. However, over the last 10 years it has been extremely difficult for private sector workers to get a home. This is compounded that now countless many young couples are trapped in 1-bed flats they cannot get out of due to massive negative equity. Many more have lost their best years to have children as they were priced out of homes to begin with.

However, this is not true of the liberal elite. Pick up the Guardian and your find page after page of extremely well paid non-jobs in the public sector. These come with the guarantee of never being sacked and a solid pension. The liberals who display the correct politics can get an X-officer job with their local authority, government department or commission which afford very generous terms.

I know of only one couple amongst my peer group (early 30’s) that has had kids, ironically an estate agent, he found a cheap(ish) deal several years back. EVERYONE else, friends my age, from uni etc etc do not have kids as they think they cannot afford them.

Yet you only need to walk down your local high street to see dozens of chavett mum with a fag in their mouth pushing some pram while shouting at her 6 year old daughter to “f’cking hurry up you little f’cking slag”.

So 20 years time what kind of people are going to be making up the youth of tomorrow? Kids brought up with traditional values of work and respect. Or kids brought up by parents who exist only on a government pay packet so they can have meetings all day and achieve nothing or government welfare.

The way I see it another Labour government is only a few terms away. And every Labour government brings about a massive shift in demographics 20 years later down the road. Each one making it far worse. I cannot see any future, I cannot see any reversal long term.

The concept of many kids being brought up with some sort of traditional values of work and respect dissapeared when a large majority of proper working class jobs were exported out of the UK. Unless we have the full specturm of jobs which pay a living wage then we will have a hefty proportion of the population in and out of benefits. If we had real jobs which paid wages that actually covered the cost of living including paying a mortgage or rent on a decent property then we would have a more decent class of person inhabiting the bottom rungs of society, like we did in the old days, and I dont mean pre- this Labour government.

Remember that it is a conservative ideal that we have a majority population who can earn less than a minimum living wage, this in fact was proved last time the Tories were in, with profitable businesses sometimes paying less than 1ph, which buy no means is a wage, never mind a living wage. How can people have any confidence and self respect when they cant live a civilised life while doing a menial job. It might well suit the egos of the well off and employers to see people on the bread line while filling up their bank accounts but ultimatlly is not good for anyone to live in a 3rd world type economy,not even the rich.

There is no fix in sight for your hopes of a civil society with either the current government nor the Tories who will just remove minimum wages and working conditions, will carry on letting employers export jobs (as per the CBI agenda) and carry on with their previous agenda of deleting social housing and as a sop to the voters will do everything in their power to keep house prices high.. The current government of course lost the plot from day 1 on account of not reeling in the freedom of the bankers (that the last tory govt gave them) and not rebuilding social housing on a massive scale. If they had then you would have all been able to buy or rent a house on sensible terms.

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HOLA445
Our rental agreement has a 'No pets, no kids' clause... Not that conducive to raising kids... I wonder if it's even legal...

:o You've got a point there - we're living in rented atm - surely 'no kids' could be construed as ageism? Our children are a darned les likely to damage a house than many 20 somethings and surely if we're prepared to stump up deposit it shouldn't be an issue but is. Can understand 'no pets' even tho' we have cats - but surely some E.U. rule about specism can't be too far off?

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HOLA446

KIDS ARE FREE

and if you are skint you can give them your dinner

I hate all these liberal educated types who 'can't afford to have kids' . TOO BLOODY SCARED more likely that they will have to step up and live it instead of winging on in bars and on forums about how only 'chavs' have it all so easy.

bunch of spineless tossers.

edit chavy spelling

Edited by i wanna house
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HOLA447

We get far to caught up with both Socialism and Capitalism in this country don't we?

The truth is that such massive changes will hopefully lead to a new area of....stupidity

to be honest, it's looking to end up like the excellent film 28 days later

Now who has the balls to stay put if this happens??????

Everyone else will scarper and the island will be quarantined......but look on the bright side,you won't have endless health+safety nazis,celebrity bilge or council jobsworths to worry about!!!

every cloud has a silver lining!! :lol::lol::lol:

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HOLA448
KIDS ARE FREE

and if you are skint you can give them your dinner

I hate all these liberal educated types who 'can't afford to have kids' . TOO BLOODY SCARED more likely that they will have to step up and live it instead of winging on in bars and on forums about how only 'chavs' have it all so easy.

bunch of spineless tossers.

edit chavy spelling

You're not living in the real world. After a decade of immense house price increases these worries are normal, people can't even afford to put a roof over their own head let alone think about providing for somebody else too.

It's not about 'liberal educated types' it's about enforced poverty on a national scale forcing working peope into making these decisons.

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HOLA449
Sorry for not getting back sooner, its this damn private sector expecting me to work for a living........

'Obscure publication', laugh out loud. My friend, the publication you read was from the Chartered Institute of Personnel + Development.

Lets try the BBC then.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3755438.stm in spite of record levels of money, just a case of throwing good money after bad.

I will keep em coming.

Oh, and for the record the armed forces are world class. Truly, I say this with all sincerity but the are not part of the public sector they are a sector on their own. Being, world class then clearly they would not be part of the public sector.

OK Forces out of the equation - agreed.

I also agree entirely with your evidence that the NHS is a massive burden on the wealth of the country and has failed time and time again even with inflation busting injections of cash.

Why is this? Attempted micro-management from the highest levels via some of the most bureaucratic and time consuming processes ever devised. These have been developed because of continued over reaction due to the intense and continual media scrutiny.

And the smokescreen 'Brain Drain' scares, which have allowed senior medical practitioners to claim vastly over inflated remuneration packages.

There are many many people working throughout the public sector who believe in and are committed to what they do. They work long hours, understand fully where their wages are coming from and strive to give value for money.

Middle management is not allowed to manage just follow processes and implement the next knee jerk idea. Oh, and be scapegoats when it all goes wrong. Which it will because you cannot manage effectively something you do not understand and are so far removed from that action to reaction times makes your decisions pointless.

Yes there is a big big problem and there are efficiencies that can be made. But to suggest that the sick, lame and lazy make up 60 % of the workforce is an insult to many hard working, low paid, dedicated individuals.

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HOLA4410

I agree completely with you on the direction we are goign with disgenics, and government non-jobs. But I think the causes are not so much to be blamed on left or right. There are developed nations that are right wing compared to us with even lower birth rates. For example Japan, a nation which I admire as the imo the best model economically.

Of course I'm not saying Labour's policies of house price hyperinflation and good job exporting have made family formation easier. Surely what you said has had a negative impact. I think the problem is if you give women the option to have children or not, they will choose not to. Or have one child, maybe 2.. that is what the last generation did, but the under 40's aren't even doing that.

One possible solution which ironically the conservative elements fear the most is radical Islam in Europe. They will force male dominance and women to have children. I personally find myself in a dilemna personally on these issues. I love liberty for both sexes and all races, and even like a lot of the liberal order. At the same time I think it is unsustainable, it has lasted as long as it has because of the vast wealth west european nations had going in. I think a sustainable liberal democratic society would need to be tied to some type of eugenics.

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HOLA4411

At the risk of provoking the ire of the anti-christ element on HPC, here is an excerpt from an editorial in this month's The English Churchman (a reformed protestant publication) entitled Casino Culture.

"The present crisis is not just about money and markets and economics. It is about people. It is people who have caused the disaster - their wrong, selfish, profligate, and immoral way of life, which has warped their judgement and values. We are not dealing merely with an economic problem, but with a flawed society, which has lost its sense of moral responsibility, and that applies not merely to bankers, but to society generally. The Old Testament prophets warned Israel of the dangers of greed and selfishness, "Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, til there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!" (Isaiah 5:8)* The same is true today. There can be no merely economic solution to our problems. There must be a change of mind and heart. Repentance is the only answer. The casino culture must go, and the permissive society along with it."

Notes:

* Isaiah 5:8

Bible in Basic English:

"Cursed are those who are joining house to house, and putting field to field, till there is no more living-space for any but themselves in all the land!"

KJV

"Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, til there be no place,(k) that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!"

k place: That is, for the poor to dwell in. (Geneva Study Bible)

5:8 Alone: - That they alone may be the lords and owners, and all others only their tenants and servants. (Wesley's notes)

5:8. (Le 25:13; Mic 2:2). The jubilee restoration of possessions was intended as a guard against avarice. (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary).

This is ancient wisdom - The Book of Isaiah was written between 701 and 681 B.C.

Its curse on the greedy and avaricious (and the Jubilee remedy) seem just as pertinent nearly three thousand years later.

Many things have changed in three thousand years, but human nature seems to be just the same as ever it was.

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HOLA4412
OK Forces out of the equation - agreed.

I also agree entirely with your evidence that the NHS is a massive burden on the wealth of the country and has failed time and time again even with inflation busting injections of cash.

Why is this? Attempted micro-management from the highest levels via some of the most bureaucratic and time consuming processes ever devised. These have been developed because of continued over reaction due to the intense and continual media scrutiny.

And the smokescreen 'Brain Drain' scares, which have allowed senior medical practitioners to claim vastly over inflated remuneration packages.

There are many many people working throughout the public sector who believe in and are committed to what they do. They work long hours, understand fully where their wages are coming from and strive to give value for money.

Middle management is not allowed to manage just follow processes and implement the next knee jerk idea. Oh, and be scapegoats when it all goes wrong. Which it will because you cannot manage effectively something you do not understand and are so far removed from that action to reaction times makes your decisions pointless.

Yes there is a big big problem and there are efficiencies that can be made. But to suggest that the sick, lame and lazy make up 60 % of the workforce is an insult to many hard working, low paid, dedicated individuals.

Reading over what you have now written it seems as though we are not that far apart.

I said 33% are sick, lame and lazy and stand by this. And now you have conceded some ground I will tell you how I know this to be the case. I have very close association with a very senior person in a local authority, I have a close association with senior Fireman, I have associations with Police, JCP and the NHS.

Its not said, its kept quiet and thats because of the VI's and the fact there is no political will...........to say '1/3 are teachers are sick, lame and lazy' or '1/3 of nurses are sick, lame and lazy' would require great political will, because when you do you get called a tw@t. So, lets keep it quiet and you and I can carry on paying your taxes for our inefficient mediocre public sector.

'Rubbish 1/3 rd are over worked, 1/3 do the bear minimum and 1/3 do ****** all.

Public sector is an inefficient, greedy, money burning, politicised cesspit.'

Here's what I said, and I know a lot more about this than you ever would, but you are more than welcome to show me evidance to the contrary.

Oh, and to the 1/3rd who are over worked I would like to offer my sincere thanks, its greatly appreciated.

Apology accepted ;)

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HOLA4413
Guest vicmac64
Reading over what you have now written it seems as though we are not that far apart.

I said 33% are sick, lame and lazy and stand by this. And now you have conceded some ground I will tell you how I know this to be the case. I have very close association with a very senior person in a local authority, I have a close association with senior Fireman, I have associations with Police, JCP and the NHS.

Its not said, its kept quiet and thats because of the VI's and the fact there is no political will...........to say '1/3 are teachers are sick, lame and lazy' or '1/3 of nurses are sick, lame and lazy' would require great political will, because when you do you get called a tw@t. So, lets keep it quiet and you and I can carry on paying your taxes for our inefficient mediocre public sector.

'Rubbish 1/3 rd are over worked, 1/3 do the bear minimum and 1/3 do ****** all.

Public sector is an inefficient, greedy, money burning, politicised cesspit.'

Here's what I said, and I know a lot more about this than you ever would, but you are more than welcome to show me evidance to the contrary.

Oh, and to the 1/3rd who are over worked I would like to offer my sincere thanks, its greatly appreciated.

Apology accepted ;)

This is Big Government, and we are the slaves - that is about it...... So something will have to change..
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HOLA4414
Not true

Businesses of all kinds support the passive and unproductive profits of UK real estate speculators - there is no choice in this matter, it you wish to conduct your business in the UK.

How if I own my own building? Quite sensible and you will find lots of mid sized businesses do. Alright someone knocked down the old factory built some modern units and then marketed them etc. I don't see that as speculation I am not a builder and they aren't in IT services, I thought that was called commerce not speculation.

Edited by Greg Bowman
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HOLA4415
Guest vicmac64
At the risk of provoking the ire of the anti-christ element on HPC, here is an excerpt from an editorial in this month's The English Churchman (a reformed protestant publication) entitled Casino Culture.

"The present crisis is not just about money and markets and economics. It is about people. It is people who have caused the disaster - their wrong, selfish, profligate, and immoral way of life, which has warped their judgement and values. We are not dealing merely with an economic problem, but with a flawed society, which has lost its sense of moral responsibility, and that applies not merely to bankers, but to society generally. The Old Testament prophets warned Israel of the dangers of greed and selfishness, "Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, til there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!" (Isaiah 5:8)* The same is true today. There can be no merely economic solution to our problems. There must be a change of mind and heart. Repentance is the only answer. The casino culture must go, and the permissive society along with it."

Notes:

* Isaiah 5:8

Bible in Basic English:

"Cursed are those who are joining house to house, and putting field to field, till there is no more living-space for any but themselves in all the land!"

KJV

"Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, til there be no place,(k) that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!"

k place: That is, for the poor to dwell in. (Geneva Study Bible)

5:8 Alone: - That they alone may be the lords and owners, and all others only their tenants and servants. (Wesley's notes)

5:8. (Le 25:13; Mic 2:2). The jubilee restoration of possessions was intended as a guard against avarice. (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary).

This is ancient wisdom - The Book of Isaiah was written between 701 and 681 B.C.

Its curse on the greedy and avaricious (and the Jubilee remedy) seem just as pertinent nearly three thousand years later.

Many things have changed in three thousand years, but human nature seems to be just the same as ever it was.

Well said - and you have nailed the problem on the head.

The problem of our nation is a spiritual problem.

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HOLA4416
Never thought money had that much to do with a happy childhood, as long as the bare necessities are covered. Ever travelled the world? Where do you see happy kids playing?

I see happy kids playing where they have two good parents, are loved and provided for properly. Didn't see many happy faces on the kids in egypt, bangkok, india, kosovo, iraq or afghanistan. Don't see many happy faces on large council estates either. I accept your point that money is not everything and so long as the necessities are covered then a happy childhood is possible but you must accept that if a prospective parent can wait a little while, save, prepare and maybe get a better job then things can be so much better, the child can have a much happier upbringing and that parent will really have done the best they can before the real work begins.

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HOLA4417
I see happy kids playing where they have two good parents, are loved and provided for properly. Didn't see many happy faces on the kids in egypt, bangkok, india, kosovo, iraq or afghanistan. Don't see many happy faces on large council estates either. I accept your point that money is not everything and so long as the necessities are covered then a happy childhood is possible but you must accept that if a prospective parent can wait a little while, save, prepare and maybe get a better job then things can be so much better, the child can have a much happier upbringing and that parent will really have done the best they can before the real work begins.

When I got married about 40 years ago it was still customary for a prospective husband to seek permission of a father to marry his daughter; any father worth his salt would have asked the suitor if he had the means to keep his daughter in the way to which she was accustomed before giving his consent (well, blessing to be accurate because after the age of 18 consent was not required, although any daughter with respect for her father would have thought twice before marrying outside of her father's blessing). Thus, even before children came into the picture it was a social requirement that a prospective husband, never mind a prospective father, had sufficient income/savings to care for a wife and any children that may result.

Call it old-fashioned, if you will; or even unfair and illiberal. Fact is, it worked better than what we have now: irresponsibile and feckless men, with no hope of employment nor even a desire to work, impregnating multiple women and leaving the State (the taxpayer, to be precise) to pick up the tab.

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HOLA4418
Reading over what you have now written it seems as though we are not that far apart.

I said 33% are sick, lame and lazy and stand by this. And now you have conceded some ground I will tell you how I know this to be the case. I have very close association with a very senior person in a local authority, I have a close association with senior Fireman, I have associations with Police, JCP and the NHS.

Its not said, its kept quiet and thats because of the VI's and the fact there is no political will...........to say '1/3 are teachers are sick, lame and lazy' or '1/3 of nurses are sick, lame and lazy' would require great political will, because when you do you get called a tw@t. So, lets keep it quiet and you and I can carry on paying your taxes for our inefficient mediocre public sector.

'Rubbish 1/3 rd are over worked, 1/3 do the bear minimum and 1/3 do ****** all.

Oh, and to the 1/3rd who are over worked I would like to offer my sincere thanks, its greatly appreciated.

Apology accepted ;)

Public sector is an inefficient, greedy, money burning, politicised cesspit.'

Here's what I said, and I know a lot more about this than you ever would, but you are more than welcome to show me evidance to the contrary.

1. I dont recall typing an apology, but it seems you will read in to my words what you want.

2. You also have an extremely high opinion of youself, which only reinforces my original assessment.

3. There are no 'very senior people' in local authoritiy, they have just convinced you they are.

4. Please don't presume to know what I do and don't know as this is very silly and again reinforces 2.

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HOLA4419
Public sector is an inefficient, greedy, money burning, politicised cesspit.'[/i]

Here's what I said, and I know a lot more about this than you ever would, but you are more than welcome to show me evidance to the contrary.

1. I dont recall typing an apology, but it seems you will read in to my words what you want.

2. You also have an extremely high opinion of youself, which only reinforces my original assessment.

3. There are no 'very senior people' in local authoritiy, they have just convinced you they are.

4. Please don't presume to know what I do and don't know as this is very silly and again reinforces 2.

so now rely on the ad hominem argument 'ere we go.

'They have just convinced me they are very senior', you are embarassing yourself now (thats twice remember the obscure publication). If only I could tell you just how completely wrong you are and what my connection is. Could I suggest that you go and research how local authorities are run? This may go some way to you being able to put two and two together.

The apology was in anticipation of you calling me a tw@t on the basis that you 'believed' I had no evidence to back up the fact that the public sector is 1/3rd full of lazy gits, I guess I over estimated your good grace. I apologise now to you for over estimating you.

Feel free to post your evidence that contradicts my opinion, feel free to prove me wrong in what you do and don't know, I will look upon it with an open mind.

You are not free though to attack me. Thats a freedom you didn't fight for.

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HOLA4420
20
HOLA4421
now he's going to have to bring her up in a council estate then I guess they might have been happier waiting a few years until at least they'd saved a decent deposit.

You clkearly do not understand forward thinking, so it's impossible for me to explain it to you

Wait a few years and it may never happen. You can't rewind life like you can a Sky+ box. Life plays forward at one speed, and you don't know how long the film is either.

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HOLA4422
No worries. For some reason I never considered myself as part of the public sector and do not class the forces as public sector either. I always thought of the forces as the forces, something seperate. Am sure the guys appreciate everything you do for them above the complete lack of support they have recieved from new labia.

I support our forces, even if I don't agree with the governments mission. Going into harms way is no mean feat

Thank you.

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HOLA4423
so now rely on the ad hominem argument 'ere we go.

'They have just convinced me they are very senior', you are embarassing yourself now (thats twice remember the obscure publication). If only I could tell you just how completely wrong you are and what my connection is. Could I suggest that you go and research how local authorities are run? This may go some way to you being able to put two and two together.

The apology was in anticipation of you calling me a tw@t on the basis that you 'believed' I had no evidence to back up the fact that the public sector is 1/3rd full of lazy gits, I guess I over estimated your good grace. I apologise now to you for over estimating you.

Feel free to post your evidence that contradicts my opinion, feel free to prove me wrong in what you do and don't know, I will look upon it with an open mind.

You are not free though to attack me. Thats a freedom you didn't fight for.

I refer you to my original reply

QED

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HOLA4424
I see happy kids playing where they have two good parents, are loved and provided for properly. Didn't see many happy faces on the kids in egypt, bangkok, india, kosovo, iraq or afghanistan. Don't see many happy faces on large council estates either. I accept your point that money is not everything and so long as the necessities are covered then a happy childhood is possible but you must accept that if a prospective parent can wait a little while, save, prepare and maybe get a better job then things can be so much better, the child can have a much happier upbringing and that parent will really have done the best they can before the real work begins.

Good God you've been to a lot of dangerous places!

I do accept your point; it's actually what we did before we had kids. Prudence is always a virtue as someone reminded us and is now in the process of illustrating rather poignantly. But I think too much of our society is obsessed with the idea of material provision for kids. If you balance the picture fair enough; but speaking from looking at people we know from our own age group, in which women are approaching an age when having kids won't be possible any more, all I can see is a real sadness that many people have missed out on the greatest joy of life because at the back of their mind has been the (often unobtainable) idea that the kids must have a too perfectly blessed material upbringing.

'You had a father - let your son say so' - Shakespeare

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HOLA4425
When I got married about 40 years ago it was still customary for a prospective husband to seek permission of a father to marry his daughter; any father worth his salt would have asked the suitor if he had the means to keep his daughter in the way to which she was accustomed before giving his consent (well, blessing to be accurate because after the age of 18 consent was not required, although any daughter with respect for her father would have thought twice before marrying outside of her father's blessing). Thus, even before children came into the picture it was a social requirement that a prospective husband, never mind a prospective father, had sufficient income/savings to care for a wife and any children that may result.

Call it old-fashioned, if you will; or even unfair and illiberal. Fact is, it worked better than what we have now: irresponsibile and feckless men, with no hope of employment nor even a desire to work, impregnating multiple women and leaving the State (the taxpayer, to be precise) to pick up the tab.

Call it instead patriarchal crap that never achieved anything and was long gone for the vast majority even 40 years ago. If you'd written that post in 1909 I might have taken it seriously, but you must be just having a laugh surely?

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