Tax Qualifications

[Frank Hovis]

I'm looking at doing a tax qualification, or more than one.

The options seem to be:

Chartered Institute of Taxation

or

Institute of Indirect Taxation

With the option of preceding either of those with the Association of Taxation Technicians.

So what I want to know is:

How much of a commitment are they (comparable to ICAEW?), am I wasting my time looking at the technician route, and what gets the best recognition?

Also which of the three recommended trainers is best (BPP, Tolleys, Kaplan) for distance learning.

If anybody can advise much appreciated.

Background

I've got ICAEW but that was a few years ago so my tax knowledge will have dated.

I want to do one as it will help my job, but it isn't a requirement and won't get me a pay rise or promotion, so it's for interest / improvement.

My primary, though not exclusive, interest is in VAT.

If anybody wants to know similar for the various accountancy exams you only need to ask.

Yes it's OT, but it is Sunday night.

[worzel]

I'm looking at doing a tax qualification, or more than one.

The options seem to be:

Chartered Institute of Taxation

or

Institute of Indirect Taxation

With the option of preceding either of those with the Association of Taxation Technicians.

So what I want to know is:

How much of a commitment are they (comparable to ICAEW?), am I wasting my time looking at the technician route, and what gets the best recognition?

Also which of the three recommended trainers is best (BPP, Tolleys, Kaplan) for distance learning.

If anybody can advise much appreciated.

Background

I've got ICAEW but that was a few years ago so my tax knowledge will have dated.

I want to do one as it will help my job, but it isn't a requirement and won't get me a pay rise or promotion, so it's for interest / improvement.

My primary, though not exclusive, interest is in VAT.

If anybody wants to know similar for the various accountancy exams you only need to ask.

Yes it's OT, but it is Sunday night.

I am also an ACA and have started (sort of) study for the CTA, which as far as I know is the best tax qualification. Its hard work but has got more manageable since they made it modular so you dont have to take all the exams in one go. There is an awareness paper and then two specialist papers and one other (which you will get an axemption for on account of your ACA). You can elect to do VAT as one of your specialist papers to cover off your bizarre interest in this most hideously complicated of taxes. Hope this answers your question, if not, let me know.

edited to add - the Kaplan study material is pretty well written, its done in conjunction with BPP so you will get the same stuff from them.

Edited February 8, 2009 by worzel

[Frank Hovis]

I am also an ACA and have started (sort of) study for the CTA, which as far as I know is the best tax qualification. Its hard work but has got more manageable since they made it modular so you dont have to take all the exams in one go. There is an awareness paper and then two specialist papers and one other (which you will get an axemption for on account of your ACA). You can elect to do VAT as one of your specialist papers to cover off your bizarre interest in this most hideously complicated of taxes. Hope this answers your question, if not, let me know.

That narrows it down Worzel.

What about doing the technician as a warm-up? I'm not in a hurry.

Cheers

[worzel]

That narrows it down Worzel.

What about doing the technician as a warm-up? I'm not in a hurry.

Cheers

Why bother if you dont have to? I certainly would not contemplate it.

[ken_ichikawa]

An ATT ? , if you have your ACA you don't need to do the ATT , you go onto do the ATII exams as the ACA shows you are competent at tax , I did it the silly way round ie ATT then ACCA which the ACCA would have trumpted both the ATT.

I advise Kaplan , as BPP tend to do texts for many different areas and seeing the text books side by side the kaplan ones for ACCA seem to go into more detail but the exam guide is needed as the text can get a bit muddy, so you know which areas to look into...

Personally I've only met ATIIs who were always the tax partners in companies I've worked for.

I don't see that much point to it other than yet again proving your competence..... but thats just me and after 10 years of exams I'm sick of them.

[DblEntry]

I work in tax for a "big four".

There is no doubt that CTA gives you instant credibility, and to the extent that you do not have substantial previous tax experience, is definitely worth doing. ADIT is a creditable alternative if international tax is what interests you.

Having said that, I am just an ICAS member and decided not to do CTA on the basis that my knowledge at the time I became a CA, in the areas relevant to my job, was more advanced than the CTA would have provided. Certainly, at any level above Tax Manager in a Big Four firm, CTA is irrelevant compared to experience if you are already a chartered accountant.

As for ATT, this is just seen as a stepping stone and is not sufficient for a decent position in most large practices or industry. You have probably done similar level tax studies in your ACA.

Taking a step back - as I don't think CTA would help my career substantially I am actually more interested in a post-grad at somewhere like Birkbeck. Surely this would provide more interest, for interest's sake, than yet more tax?

[Frank Hovis]

Thanks all. Food for thought.

[mad'un]

Hey, if you guys ever throw a party...

Can I come?!!

(please?)

(sorry - couldn't resist it!)

[Joey122]

Thanks all. Food for thought.

What is the salary for people with CTA please?

Just out of interest more then anything...

[ken_ichikawa]

What is the salary for people with CTA please?

Just out of interest more then anything...

Depends what you go for as a lacky , you get stuck around 25-45K, partner level is as much biz as you can generate.

My old bosses

CJ a ATII made about 900K (partner level)

PE a CTA ATII made about 450K, (partner level)

KE a ATII made about 800K (partner level)

PD an ATII makes around 750K. (partner level)

My manager in another firm makes 38K. she is CTA.

The ATTs make about 24-30K but they have decades of experience ,and worked their way up to this , myself only on 17K

[ken_ichikawa]

Hey, if you guys ever throw a party...

Can I come?!!

(please?)

(sorry - couldn't resist it!)

Work life is boring but by enlarge accountant types tend to make up for it in different ways, ie me with about 4 years in accountancy have decided to jack it in for 7 months and go travelling via motorbike RTW.

[strbear]

Guys

Don't know where you are but if you wanted some sound advice on this and the career implications speak to Georgiana at Georgiana Head Recruitment in Leeds - all the advisers are Tax qualified and all they do is tax jobs - they advertise a high proportion of tax jobs nationally and are GOOD at what they do.

Mention Steve & Cate said you should speak - hope that helps,,

SB

[qwe3333]

was also thinking about studying CTA to stand out from the hoards of accountants. ADIC sounded more interesting to me but its not a "real" qualification, so a bit worried if its worthwhile.

[bagsos]

I am ACA (could be F but ages you terribly.........vanity I know) and CTA (ATII when I did it). If you want to work in tax in the UK, CTA is the best way to go. However uness it is easier now than when I did it (4 exams; pass rate of 15% - 35%) it is not an easy option. Also see todays Sunday Times - skyrocketing leves of unemployment for tax people. Good luck!

[roger196]

I'm looking at doing a tax qualification, or more than one.

Maybe an unusual suggestion, but have you thought of working for HMRC on the VAT side for a few years. The pay is poor, but the technical knowledge is unrivalled.

Or apply to DG6 in Brussels. You will need to be fluent in French as that is ( or was when I used to deal with them) their working language.

Worth brushing up on your tax policy before interview. ( hint read the IFS green budget report)

[guitarman001]

I thought accountants got paid loadsa money? I'm a typical engineer, 2 years out of uni and on £28k - does it just take a while for you to rack it up, or do engineers actually have it good?

[keeprenting]

Also see todays Sunday Times - skyrocketing leves of unemployment for tax people. Good luck!

Link?

[ken_ichikawa]

I thought accountants got paid loadsa money? I'm a typical engineer, 2 years out of uni and on £28k - does it just take a while for you to rack it up, or do engineers actually have it good?

Typical pyramid scheme in that for every partner type who earns 400K or there abouts you have about 5-10 lackies working under them at various levels of career advancement, obviously not everybody can be partner and my old firm had plenty of folks who were 50-60 years old who were never offered the partner side of things.

[bagsos]

Link?

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle5683566.ece

[bagsos]

Typical pyramid scheme in that for every partner type who earns 400K or there abouts you have about 5-10 lackies working under them at various levels of career advancement, obviously not everybody can be partner and my old firm had plenty of folks who were 50-60 years old who were never offered the partner side of things.

Was that big 4? In my experience when you get to about 40 the big 4, they go down 2 routes to get rid of you, so have very few of the types you describe.

They either:

1. dangle the partner carrot in front of you and make ever more unreasonable demands on you to make the last push for partnership until you call their bluff, say "make me a partner next time round or I leave"; or

2. they call you in for a quiet chat with the HR partner and his cronies (there's usually 3 of them in total) and are told that you have gone as far as you are ever going to go in the organisation, so either:

a. take this admin/technical role we have created for you which isn't client facing, and will mean a pay freeze for a few years as you are now an overhead rather than chargeable; or

b. be a good chap/girl and try and find a role outside the organisationin the next 6 months so we can free up some space and promote some of the younger, more eager ones.

When they get rid of partners they just clear their desks for them and escort them from the premises. I saw quite a bit of all 3 get rid techniques in the mini- recession of the early 00's.

[harris]

Was that big 4? In my experience when you get to about 40 the big 4, they go down 2 routes to get rid of you, so have very few of the types you describe.

They either:

1. dangle the partner carrot in front of you and make ever more unreasonable demands on you to make the last push for partnership until you call their bluff, say "make me a partner next time round or I leave"; or

2. they call you in for a quiet chat with the HR partner and his cronies (there's usually 3 of them in total) and are told that you have gone as far as you are ever going to go in the organisation, so either:

a. take this admin/technical role we have created for you which isn't client facing, and will mean a pay freeze for a few years as you are now an overhead rather than chargeable; or

b. be a good chap/girl and try and find a role outside the organisationin the next 6 months so we can free up some space and promote some of the younger, more eager ones.

When they get rid of partners they just clear their desks for them and escort them from the premises. I saw quite a bit of all 3 get rid techniques in the mini- recession of the early 00's.

What you do with the Big 4 is you get yourself to senior manager level as quickly as possible, and then make a realistic call on whether you think you have a genuine chance at partner or not.

If you think not, you leave as soon as possible for a job in commerce at a good level and move on from there. The worst situation you can be in is trying for and failing to make partner as you end up burnt out and not good for much else.

Edited February 9, 2009 by harris

[harris]

I work in tax for a "big four".

There is no doubt that CTA gives you instant credibility, and to the extent that you do not have substantial previous tax experience, is definitely worth doing. ADIT is a creditable alternative if international tax is what interests you.

Having said that, I am just an ICAS member and decided not to do CTA on the basis that my knowledge at the time I became a CA, in the areas relevant to my job, was more advanced than the CTA would have provided. Certainly, at any level above Tax Manager in a Big Four firm, CTA is irrelevant compared to experience if you are already a chartered accountant.

As for ATT, this is just seen as a stepping stone and is not sufficient for a decent position in most large practices or industry. You have probably done similar level tax studies in your ACA.

Taking a step back - as I don't think CTA would help my career substantially I am actually more interested in a post-grad at somewhere like Birkbeck. Surely this would provide more interest, for interest's sake, than yet more tax?

CTA is irrelevant if you are already working in the tax area and have a CA. If you want to get in to tax or have just started in tax and don't have a CA its probably worth it.

[sleepwello'nights]

Thought I was on Accountingweb.co.uk for a while.

Not sure the Big 4 are the worthwhile career route. If you want to work in practice you need to get down to the nitty gritty tax work. The SME sector is the largest in terms of businesses and you can make a reasonable living. Its not as specialized as the taxation for larger companies and you will be dealing with much smaller numbers. The small business owner is more concerned with minimizing his tax bill than with any other aspect of accountancy.

For this type of work ATT is more than adequate. The CTA qualification offers specialisms in Corporate Tax and tax for High Net Worth Individuals, both with a totally different emphasis and knowledge base. As with everything you need to define your goal and then work out how to get there.

Good luck

[grizzly bear]

I'm looking at doing a tax qualification, or more than one.

The options seem to be:

Chartered Institute of Taxation

or

Institute of Indirect Taxation

With the option of preceding either of those with the Association of Taxation Technicians.

So what I want to know is:

How much of a commitment are they (comparable to ICAEW?), am I wasting my time looking at the technician route, and what gets the best recognition?

Also which of the three recommended trainers is best (BPP, Tolleys, Kaplan) for distance learning.

If anybody can advise much appreciated.

Background

I've got ICAEW but that was a few years ago so my tax knowledge will have dated.

I want to do one as it will help my job, but it isn't a requirement and won't get me a pay rise or promotion, so it's for interest / improvement.

My primary, though not exclusive, interest is in VAT.

If anybody wants to know similar for the various accountancy exams you only need to ask.

Yes it's OT, but it is Sunday night.

If you are ICAEW qualified you can go straight to Chartered Institute of Taxation exams. I'd say it was pretty much comparible (maybe a bit less) than one round of ICAEW. There is a VAT option so you don't need to do much other than VAT. CTA is widely accepted and recognised.

[grizzly bear]

Was that big 4? In my experience when you get to about 40 the big 4, they go down 2 routes to get rid of you, so have very few of the types you describe.

They either:

1. dangle the partner carrot in front of you and make ever more unreasonable demands on you to make the last push for partnership until you call their bluff, say "make me a partner next time round or I leave"; or

2. they call you in for a quiet chat with the HR partner and his cronies (there's usually 3 of them in total) and are told that you have gone as far as you are ever going to go in the organisation, so either:

a. take this admin/technical role we have created for you which isn't client facing, and will mean a pay freeze for a few years as you are now an overhead rather than chargeable; or

b. be a good chap/girl and try and find a role outside the organisationin the next 6 months so we can free up some space and promote some of the younger, more eager ones.

When they get rid of partners they just clear their desks for them and escort them from the premises. I saw quite a bit of all 3 get rid techniques in the mini- recession of the early 00's.

Or a 4th option is make these people redundant when the market turns.