David Cameron Against Protectionism

[Guest vicmac64]

If you are looking at it from a nationalist point of view, then the economic question is whether the increased utility and overall economic productivity created by specialising in those areas in which you have comparative advantage outweigh the cost of the fund transfers out of the country.

There is clearly an advantage to a country if its citizens are naturally inclined, at the margin, to buy locally produced products rather than imported products. At some point though, this advantage goes away as the benefit from the increased net exports is outweighed by the crappyness of the products purchased and the implied reduced value being added by the producers of those goods who could be engaged in more productive pursuits.

Trying to persuade consumers to buy locally through laws encourages retaliation which usually leads to a lose-lose situation.

Overall, protectionist moves are relatively better for net importers (UK, US) than exporters (China, Germany), but again, this is really just prisoners dilemma game theory with asymmetric outcomes in the different quadrants.

The figures say we have a large and growing balance of trade deficit - we import more than we export. Therefore I think you have answered your own question - it would indeed be more beneficial for the UK to bring in some level of protectionism.

[Guest happy?]

Let me make this clear - Globalism is why we are where we are....

David Cameron is in favour of protectionism.

There can be no other rationale explanation as to why Wee Georgie is still Shadow Chancellor.

[OnlyMe]

The figures say we have a large and growing balance of trade deficit - we import more than we export.

That alone is enough in itself to demonstrate that globalism and its effect on the UK economy have been and are increasingly negative.

There is a difference between global trade and globalism, globalism as practised by Brown is the active and wanton abandonment and destruction of your own industrial base and other key areas - allowing anybody and everybody to buy a slice and do with whatever they wish from outside the borders and outside current or later democratic/political control and influence.

This is going to lead to a lot of trouble.

[Guest vicmac64]

The problem with that theory is that it ALWAYS means less than full employment in the long run therefore great sections of countries suffer irreparably and a few get richer beyond their wildest dreams. Witness the (well documented) GROWING disparity between rich and poor in this country since the 60's as specialization in one area (Finance) has meant the total destruction of whole communities in various parts of the country.

Since there is not an infinite amount of resource anywhere there always will be a natural limit to the amount of a product that can be produced and who can work in the production of that product. If a country can not find other ways of making money that keep the WHOLE population in employment they risk severe social and economic issues. If the vast amount of money being made is concentrated only in the "specialized" area the chance of this benefiting the whole economy is lower.

Globilization unchecked ALWAYS means that the disparity between rich and poor gets larger. I am not advocating communism, nor out and out capitalism. I think that there has to be a managed economy which takes into account the downside of letting markets run riot destroying countries and leaving whole sections of the population stuffed.

Nearly every popular people uprising from Latin America to Russia has been down to this exact behavior. Governments who think they've found the formula to eternal supply of wealth when really they just serve themselves and their cronies, always forgetting what matters.. the people!

Correct - I am no communist, but I believe in Liberty and Democracy and society where the small hard working enteprising individual can survive, where small businesses are the norm and where there is employment and opportunity for those who wish to work. Is that too much to ask from the Greedy Selfish Globalists?

The seeds of Revolution are being sown by our discredited Government and its obscene ministers, discontent is growing exponentially, people are waking up to the theft of their liberty and livelyhoods, they are waking up to a country that is being run by those that would destroy their way of life and that do not care for the future prospects of their children.

For those of you that cannot detach themselves from the legacy years of fiat economy and fat living - based on fraudulent lending practices - I can only tell you that they will never come back in your lifetime under this Globalist system, they were a fraud - a 15 year bubble based on DEBT.

You will never again see the lifestyle excesses that we have all witnessed - that was a mirage.

If you think that backing the sordid Globalist system that destroyed our manufacturing base and created the bubble and corruption will solve your problems then think again - It won't, It doesn't want to...... Thats why you the taxpayer will be paying for it for years under the Globalists regime.

And if you think backing this failed 'Globalism' train wreck will bring yesterdays nirvana back then you are surely living in a dreamworld and I feel sorry for your lack of depth.

Reasonable people with common sense have figured it out - we must offer stability to our children through small Government - Sound Economics - Protectionism where necessary - We need to export more than we need to import, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY WE NEED TO PUT OUR PEOPLE BACK TO WORK

Long Live the people of the United Kingdom and may common sense one day prevail............

[cht]

I just cannot believe this thread. The level of ignorance and lack of critical capacity is ASTOUNDING.

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ST

That's why I haven't posted on this thread.

[Guest vicmac64]

That alone is enough in itself to demonstrate that globalism and its effect on the UK economy have been and are increasingly negative.

There is a difference between global trade and globalism, globalism as practised by Brown is the active and wanton abandonment and destruction of your own industrial base and other key areas - allowing anybody and everybody to buy a slice and do with whatever they wish from outside the borders and outside current or later democratic/political control and influence.

This is going to lead to a lot of trouble.

For a while today I thought I and a couple of others were last two or three sane people living in the UK. Great post.. vicmac64

[Guest vicmac64]

That's why I haven't posted on this thread.

You just have you twit

[Guest vicmac64]

Bed time jibes? Has HPC come to this?

.

You must be the big man yeah?

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The world is a globe already. No matter what scared ignorant little people think or how loudly they shout people are better off if they trade freely. Maybe I will be overwhelmed by the mob, shouted down by people who think that wrapping yourself in a flag is more important than thinking logicaly and behaving sensibly...I hope not for our country's sake.

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Just do me a favour, read some books, talk to some people who don't hold your narrow world view and LISTEN. I feel the education system has failed you and that is a shame but remember. Its never too late to learn.

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ST

you really are a lightweight.

[cht]

You just have you twit

So I did.

[Guest happy?]

Correct - I am no communist, but I believe in Liberty and Democracy and society where the small hard working enterprising individual can survive....

I'm sure the PC police are onto you right now - you're not permitted to discriminate against people on the basis of their height.

[Guest vicmac64]

David Cameron is in favour of protectionism.

There can be no other rationale explanation as to why Wee Georgie is still Shadow Chancellor.

Fantastic post - had a right laugh at it..

[Guest vicmac64]

So I did.

twice!! ha ha

At least you have some humour - so welcome to the thread!

[Guest vicmac64]

I'm sure the PC police are onto you right now - you're not permitted to discriminate against people on the basis of their height.

Would not surprise me 'happy', I think a lot of them were on this thread earlier - The Globalist Politically Correct ones - I'll just call them the GPCs ha ha

[steve99]

no. it was the british people that did this to themselves with their selfish nimby greed.

you cant buy a 5x over valued home AND buy a b&q kitchen.

this isnt rocket science.

its not even basic economics.

it was ignorance.

theres no one else to blame.

However it has been successive stupid governments pandering to the greedy wants of 'City' interests that have allowed this to happen. They get paid a lot of money to be clever, but patently they are even more stupid than MR&Mrs 5x mortgage.

yes , the consumer had the chance to change this back in the 70s by supporting the 'buy british' campaign

the mindless consumer drones must take a great deal of responsibility for this charade

Partly true but by and large the incredibly poor management of British manufacturers who had not progressed beyond the 1950's determined by their very own arrogance their ulitmate demise. They refused to compete with the technology of Japan and Germany, dito the quality control, in fact the type of management they had back then is very much in line with todays management where the priorities are 'My remuneration' 'My Status' 'My Bonus' and avoiding responsibility within an ever expanding blame culture, no matter what type of buisness. Hence foreign products became popular on account of being better quality.

There are exceptions of course.

Let other nations look after their own affairs - the UK is our affair, Foreign workers are not my concern, my fellow British workers are all our concern. I am British and proud to be nationalistic and it isn't rubbish - its a perfectly reasonable view to be nationalistic.

I agree

By allowing the use of semi-slave and child labour working in unsafe conditions in order to get ultra cheap goods into the UK we are acutaly doing the foreign workers no benefit. Yes, many of the owners of capital over there are thriving but the physical and social ills of such manufacturing in the 3rd world are not justified in order to keep British importers and consumers happy. Workers in poor countries have never benefited from being the suppliers of cash crops for export, and that includes modern day manufacturing.

Tarrifs would allow us to compete (within Britain) on a more level playing field and not the one that globalisation had in mind, ie all in dire poverty together. Not only that, more people would have proper jobs and we would have a more balanced society like we had in the old days where people from 16 to 65 could be gainfully employed in worthwhile jobs, add this to sensible banking and much would be right in our world.

There would also then be incentive for British manufacturers to compete in the world (as they sometimes do today)by increasing quality and productivity via technological advancement across a wider range of industries that we no longer have.

The current and future projected system of globalisation is treasonous and has been concieved in US centric right wing think tanks purely to enhance the financial gain and power of the already rich and greedy with the added pleasure of misery for the rest of us.

[Guest vicmac64]

However it has been successive stupid governments pandering to the greedy wants of 'City' interests that have allowed this to happen. They get paid a lot of money to be clever, but patently they are even more stupid than MR&Mrs 5x mortgage.

Partly true but by and large the incredibly poor management of British manufacturers who had not progressed beyond the 1950's determined by their very own arrogance their ulitmate demise. They refused to compete with the technology of Japan and Germany, dito the quality control, in fact the type of management they had back then is very much in line with todays management where the priorities are 'My remuneration' 'My Status' 'My Bonus' and avoiding responsibility within an ever expanding blame culture, no matter what type of buisness. Hence foreign products became popular on account of being better quality.

There are exceptions of course.

I agree

By allowing the use of semi-slave and child labour working in unsafe conditions in order to get ultra cheap goods into the UK we are acutaly doing the foreign workers no benefit. Yes, many of the owners of capital over there are thriving but the physical and social ills of such manufacturing in the 3rd world are not justified in order to keep British importers and consumers happy. Workers in poor countries have never benefited from being the suppliers of cash crops for export, and that includes modern day manufacturing.

Tarrifs would allow us to compete (within Britain) on a more level playing field and not the one that globalisation had in mind, ie all in dire poverty together. Not only that, more people would have proper jobs and we would have a more balanced society like we had in the old days where people from 16 to 65 could be gainfully employed in worthwhile jobs, add this to sensible banking and much would be right in our world.

There would also then be incentive for British manufacturers to compete in the world (as they sometimes do today)by increasing quality and productivity via technological advancement across a wider range of industries that we no longer have.

The current and future projected system of globalisation is treasonous and has been concieved in US centric right wing think tanks purely to enhance the financial gain and power of the already rich and greedy with the added pleasure of misery for the rest of us.

Thanks for your post Steve99 - you have succinctly demonstrated exactly why Globalisation is indeed the very path to ruin and is the sole preserve of treacherous politicians. Finally the balance is turning on this thread towards common sense, I have stuck with it all day - it is something that is vitally important to the future of our nation and if I can even convince one reader to see the evil that Globalisation is then it will have been worth the time spent on it.

[Lone_Twin]

you really are a lightweight.

This thread is only a few pages long. Anyone with an interest and an open mind can watch me run rings round you.

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You've made yourself look very silly, at least we know just to ignore anything you post in future. No matter how loudly you shout we can be sure there is not any thought or even a modicum of intelligence behind your opinions.

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Harsh but true.

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ST

[Guest vicmac64]

This thread is only a few pages long. Anyone with an interest and an open mind can watch me run rings round you.

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You've made yourself look very silly, at least we know just to ignore anything you post in future. No matter how loudly you shout we can be sure there is not any thought or even a modicum of intelligence behind your opinions.

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Harsh but true.

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ST

Put the dummy back in your mouth - and go back to sleep but before you do something you should mull on (along with the calpol) - Intelligence makes no impression on me - you can be smart and stupid at the same time, history is littered with such examples.

Common sense however goes long way - and common sense says Globalisation is bad for the UK. For all the reasons listed and because Recent History proves it - our politicians are scared and for very good reason, they have backed its corrupt practices and the people are waking up to the fact.

If your views are not already in the minority they soon will be.

For every so called benefit this obscene treacherous practice would seem to bring - there are a million other better reasons to saty well clear of it and to retain our Sovereign Parliamentary Democracy.

So We the people will have protectionism and honest Government.... mark my words 'change is a comin'

[Si1]

This thread is only a few pages long. Anyone with an interest and an open mind can watch me run rings round you.

.

You've made yourself look very silly, at least we know just to ignore anything you post in future. No matter how loudly you shout we can be sure there is not any thought or even a modicum of intelligence behind your opinions.

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Harsh but true.

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ST

+1

keep it up ST!

[EUBanana]

So where do you see the words EU appear in the post you are replying to?

Well, its the only mercantalist grouping we are in.

[EUBanana]

If your views are not already in the minority they soon will be.

Well, then Adolf Hitler was a top man, entirely justified by most Germans agreeing with him come election time.

That doesn't mean a damn thing if you're grossly misguided, does it.

[EUBanana]

Correct - I am no communist, but I believe in Liberty and Democracy and society where the small hard working enteprising individual can survive

Well, I'll be screwed in this utopia, no cheap Fiats for me.

I've noticed a distinct lack of desire in you to actually answer questions, you know, this debate thing, back and forth for mutual fun and profit. So, I'll ask again. How is Liberty compatible with you wanting to use state violence to price cheap Fiats out of my range and deny me my crappy roadster?

The seeds of Revolution are being sown by our discredited Government and its obscene ministers, discontent is growing exponentially, people are waking up to the theft of their liberty and livelyhoods, they are waking up to a country that is being run by those that would destroy their way of life and that do not care for the future prospects of their children.

The liberty to take photographs on the street or having a cigarette in a pub yeah, but they have at least left me my cheap Fiat...

For those of you that cannot detach themselves from the legacy years of fiat economy and fat living - based on fraudulent lending practices - I can only tell you that they will never come back in your lifetime under this Globalist system, they were a fraud - a 15 year bubble based on DEBT.

Well, thats true enough. But the guilty parties there are

a) Gordon Brown, with his low interest rates

The Great British Public, who did not have to be forced into the banks at gunpoint (not even by foreign stormtroopers in bankster employ), but of their own free will (and even voted for one G. Brown Esquire)

If you think that backing the sordid Globalist system that destroyed our manufacturing base and created the bubble and corruption will solve your problems then think again - It won't, It doesn't want to...... Thats why you the taxpayer will be paying for it for years under the Globalists regime.

I don't see what G.Brown and the Great British Public have to do with Johnny Foreigner. You aren't believing his tripe about this being an imported crisis are you?

We need to export more than we need to import,

Actually no, this is a fallacy that was lanced in the 19th century. Trade isn't a zero sum game, we benefit from imports as much as exports.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY WE NEED TO PUT OUR PEOPLE BACK TO WORK

You need to listen to Maggie Thatcher re. job creation.

[EUBanana]

For every so called benefit this obscene treacherous practice would seem to bring - there are a million other better reasons to saty well clear of it and to retain our Sovereign Parliamentary Democracy.

Christ, who would have thought that cheap Fiats were so pernicious? Should the directors of Fiat be added to the Home Office's terror list for subverting our democracy? I thought all they wanted to do was make something I want to buy...

[the primitive]

Sorry I wasnt asking you the question.

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You have so far described yourself as a nationalistic, protectionist libertarian in favour of small government...ergo an IDIOT.

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ST

ST

I have a theory:

You're wasting your time with this one

Couldn't face the whole thread - did vicmac ever answer the one about protectionism on a local level? No wait, I know the answer...

Genuinely worrying that idiotic views like his COULD gain traction. I really hope he is just an isolated swivel-eyed BNP nutter and there aren't many like him, but i'm getting a bad feeling.

[KingBingo]

Couldn't face the whole thread - did vicmac ever answer the one about protectionism on a local level? No wait, I know the answer...

No, I did bring it up about four times and the one time he answer he flatly contradicted himself. I then pointed that out and his next answer was “I’m right because I say so” or something like.

The guy is now pumping out one liner insult posts left right and centre in a desperate attempt to attract someone back to post.

I want to believe that no-one could genuinely be so contradictory, so gleefully ignorant. I suspect that this one is a troll after his desperate attempts to keep the thread going. Which is shame, the arguments for protectionism is gaining traction. Just like they did after 1929 which help lead the world into depression.

Free-trade when based on appropriate small but powerful governance is and remains the greatest force of good this world has ever seen. I challenge anyone to suggest any other movement or trend that betters it. If anyone says religion I will laugh.

Unfortunately, at times of market failures in the mixed economy there will be some that believe (purely on a visceral based) that it is purely the market side that is to blame, and will actively promote a state failure to address a perceived market failure.

This is a debate that is worth having, yet tragically the OP is either trolling or is actually so bereft of reason and basic intellect that discussion is literally impossible.

A few other poster have made more reasoned contributions. It would be nice to be able to refute their points. But I’m not going to do it here on this thread.

Edited February 5, 2009 by KingBingo

[babesagainstmachines]

Let other nations look after their own affairs - the UK is our affair, Foreign workers are not my concern, my fellow British workers are all our concern. I am British and proud to be nationalistic and it isn't rubbish - its a perfectly reasonable view to be nationalistic.

Extrapolate please.

We would end up with nothing more than these islands can produce. We'd have to halve the population to maintain living standards. I'm sure you've got a plan for that though, right?