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Tony Benn To Bbc - "people Will Die Because Of The Bbc"


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Just a shot in the dark here, but I imagine the Palestinians' "anti US stance" stems largely from the fact that the US manufactures and gives to Israel most of the weapons used to blow them and their families to bits. .....in retaliation to Iran who supply Hamas with weapons to blow up citizens in Israel & whoever else doesn't want to follow Sharia law.

.....

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SillyBear, They DID broadcast an appeal for the Sudan.

DEC is a responsible organisation, they even get the National Audit Office AND other independent organisations to check the effectiveness of their aid. Take a look at the report on the Sudan appeal.

http://www.dec.org.uk/download/411/Stateme...udan-Appeal.pdf

Quite frankly, I think posts like that of [email protected] are both unhelpful and irresponsible. Unhelpful because they are untrue and irresponsible because they divert the debate into childish and dangerous territory. There are lives at stake here, both jewish lives and palestinian lives. We owe it to ourselves to deal with these issues in a civilised and responsible manner because we are so far from the action. Excuse me Linda, but typing inane comments like that from the safety of internet anonymity is not a good use of time.

On a more general level, the amount of ignorance about these issues amongst the general public is very high. Both Palestinan and Israeli societies are far more heterogeneous and nuanced than we give them credit for. Hamas is not the Taliban and nor is Israel an authoritarian state.

I find that in the US there is always a tendency to see things in terms of Good Guys and Bad Guys. Over here we pride ourselves on being more nuanced. In Israel itself most people are aware of their history and are trying to come to terms with how to deal with it. See my four solutions earlier in the thread.

Which do you prefer Linda, and why?

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Just a shot in the dark here, but I imagine the Palestinians' "anti US stance" stems largely from the fact that the US manufactures and gives to Israel most of the weapons used to blow them and their families to bits. .....in retaliation to Iran who supply Hamas with weapons to blow up citizens in Israel & whoever else doesn't want to follow Sharia law.

.....

How do you know it's retaliation?

How can you be sure who fires first?

Peter.

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Is this aid bound for the same people who celebated (shown on tv) the twin towers attack in 2001 n

The journalists asked some local kids to dance, and then filmed them.The kids didn't know why they were being asked to dance, or that the journalist would use it to for sensational headlines about nasty foreign muslims dancing in the streets in celebration at 9/11. This has been debunked for years, open your eyes.

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SillyBear, They DID broadcast an appeal for the Sudan.

DEC is a responsible organisation, they even get the National Audit Office AND other independent organisations to check the effectiveness of their aid. Take a look at the report on the Sudan appeal.

http://www.dec.org.uk/download/411/Stateme...udan-Appeal.pdf

Quite frankly, I think posts like that of [email protected] are both unhelpful and irresponsible. Unhelpful because they are untrue and irresponsible because they divert the debate into childish and dangerous territory. There are lives at stake here, both jewish lives and palestinian lives. We owe it to ourselves to deal with these issues in a civilised and responsible manner because we are so far from the action. Excuse me Linda, but typing inane comments like that from the safety of internet anonymity is not a good use of time.

On a more general level, the amount of ignorance about these issues amongst the general public is very high. Both Palestinan and Israeli societies are far more heterogeneous and nuanced than we give them credit for. Hamas is not the Taliban and nor is Israel an authoritarian state.

I find that in the US there is always a tendency to see things in terms of Good Guys and Bad Guys. Over here we pride ourselves on being more nuanced. In Israel itself most people are aware of their history and are trying to come to terms with how to deal with it. See my four solutions earlier in the thread.

Which do you prefer Linda, and why?

I visited Israel and the West Bank in Aug 08...have you visited those areas recently? The Israelis and West Bankers are co-operating v well and I did not see huge queues at the checkpoints...actually just one car when I was there at Ramalah/Jerusalem checkpoint. Parts of the West Bank are actually quite prosperous now. The only problem (with Fatah in the West Bank as well as the Israelis) seems to be the terrorist/freedom fighter Hamas organisation in Gaza....remember they forcibly removed Fatah from the territory.

The best solution is that Israel just deals with more resonable Fatah, the people on Gaza get rid of Hamas, and the Palestinians have their own state on the West Bank. Gaza should be absorbed into Egypt, of which Gaza was originally part of.

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Thanks for your reply Linda.

There are a couple of problems. One is that Fatah is corrupt and people in Gaza were tired of them - that is why they voted for Hamas. Gazans felt that Hamas were more honest and could deliver better. Many in Israel openly state that the economic blockade on Gaza since 2006 (which has crippled it) was actually designed to ensure that Hamas did not deliver. Because from Israel's point of view they could not afford to have a prosperous Hamas controlled Gaza.

In addition, it is important to point out that Hamas is NOT like the Taliban. Gazan society also has its Christians, it Atheists, its factions etc. But it is true that Hamas is trying to assert control.

I agree with you about the prosperity of parts of the West Bank. However one issue is the settlers who live beyond the Separation Wall. These exert a powerful influence on the Israeli politicians. Can you foresee a day when the government actually goes in and removes them?

And what if the settlers are not removed. If they are not then it means that the West Bank and Israel become more and more entwined. Gradually it becomes impossible to separate the two and therefore there cannot be a two state solution any more.

Once this happens, the Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem will quite reasonably start demanding the right to vote in Israeli elections. And Israel will be faced with a choice. Either become an Apartheid society for ever - or dilute the Jewish majority significantly.

Granted, if Gaza returns to Egypt as you suggest, this will be a lesser dilution, but it will be a dilution all the same. Finally, lets not forget that whilst Gaza was part of Egypt, its population has become swollen by the influx of refugees from displacement of Palestinians to make way for Israels creation.

The above is why some responsible and forward thinking Israelis are sick and tired of their warmongering leaders.

Edited by paradox
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The journalists asked some local kids to dance, and then filmed them.The kids didn't know why they were being asked to dance, or that the journalist would use it to for sensational headlines about nasty foreign muslims dancing in the streets in celebration at 9/11. This has been debunked for years, open your eyes.

Just goes to show how easily I am fooled by media lies.

I bet those suicide bombings and babies with explosive vests on are a set up too!

Edited by The Pale Rider
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You forgot

5. The American Israelis go back to a country that provides them no threat, the US stops subsidising an unsustainable immigrant culture, and Palestine goes back to being a place for the native Arabs and Jews who got along fairly happily until Ben Gurion.

Not that I agree with it, but you did put in an Endschlossung, so I think it at least deserves an airing.

Wasn't the population of Israel swelled by 1/3 by ex Soviets let out from the late eighties onwards, most of whom only had very tenuous links to a Jewish line?

Oh, and talking of the the ex Soviet Union, didn't Georgia leap in at number 2 for most aid received from the U S of A last year>

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Tony Benn is the daddy. The man is a humanist, who speaks sense; an all-round good man.

============================================================================

Sentimental twaddle. Don't be seduced. How often have you heard him use his influence to shine a light on this rotten government and all the things most people on this forum hate them for? Occasionally, he does a bit of tub thumping. Fine.

But he's one of them.

Oh and by the way he considers Gordon Brown "a safe pair of hands".........mind you he didn't sound as if he was totally convinced of that when he was saying it?

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And what if the settlers are not removed. If they are not then it means that the West Bank and Israel become more and more entwined. Gradually it becomes impossible to separate the two and therefore there cannot be a two state solution any more.

I believe the Israeli government policy now is to remove illegal settlers, subject to agreement of which part of the disputed territory is not Israeli.

Once this happens, the Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem will quite reasonably start demanding the right to vote in Israeli elections. And Israel will be faced with a choice. Either become an Apartheid society for ever - or dilute the Jewish majority significantly.

I didn't see much evidence of Apartheid, as in the South African sense. I met plenty of Israeli Arabs who were living and working in Israel- they didn't seem too happy about Hamas. They also have their own seats in the Israeli Knesset, which was not the case in South Africa. Jerusalem is certainly multi-ethnic- walking through the Old City is amazing: Armenian, Greek Orthodox, Christian, Jewish, Muslim and yet homogenous.

The above is why some responsible and forward thinking Israelis are sick and tired of their warmongering leaders.

A subjective viewpoint. Didn't a recent poll say that 80% of Israelis approved of the current situation...but I can imagine there are still many other points of view there. Anyway my views on the situation are not important as I haven't had to live through the constant fear of being attacked, seen the 'facts' myself or had them 'truly' verified independent observers. ;)

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Dear Linda,

Thank you for your reply. As you are aware Israel was created by UN mandate on a territory much smaller than is currently controlled. The internationally recognised borders are based on the 1967 armistice. Agreed it is policy to remove settlers as part of a negotiated agreement. I am just raising the point that this will be a tough and difficult thing to do, but necessary if peace is to be achieved.

Apartheid. This was a system that gave different levels of rights to different groups of people. As I see it there are five levels of existence within the areas currently controlled by Israel (see my earlier post for definition of control).

1. Jewish Israelis - total freedom of travel, vote, full rights as Israeli citizens

2. Palestinians living within the 1967 borders, limited freedom to travel, full voting rights, some discrimination, I

3. Palestinians living within annexed East Jerusalem, limited freedom to travel, no vote, id cards but not Israeli citizens. Essentially people who are stateless.

4. Palestinians living within the West Bank, restricted travel, no vote, no id cards, stateless people, issues with regard to access to land.

5. Palestinians living within Gaza. Extensive restrictions, Economic blockade, electricity and water supplies controlled by Israel. Severe humanitarian crisis.

Now, I suggest this is not a healthy situation.

With regard to the constant fears of being attacked, I completely agree that residents of within the 1967 borders towards the south of Israel have suffered greatly from the insecurity of rocket attacks, and these are indiscriminate to the point that Palestinians have been killed. As mentioned in my previous post, this is a long standing and complicated conflict between the State of Israel and people living under its jurisdiction but who are denied rights. There are four potential solutions to this conflict listed in my earlier post as a, b, c, and d and again I invite you to choose which one you favour. I guess it is b. from your earlier response.

However I also invite you to reflect on the following. When I was living under fear of attack in London during the IRA bombing campaign I did not expect my government to collectively punish the Nationalist parts of Northern Ireland. This was despite the fact that they even voted a convicted terrorist on hunger strike (Bobby Sands) into parliament and clinically executed prison guards on a regular basis. The IRA did not accept the "Right of the British State to Exist" in Northern Ireland. We fought them, but we did not systematically destroy the economy of the Nationalist areas and bomb them back to the stone age. Why not? Were we too weak? Or did we have some degree of restraint, sensibly realising that the march of time will bring an eventual solution and that some degree of human decency is required, even towards those who almost blew up the whole British cabinet in the Brighton bombing and who killed civilians in cold blood. Maybe we felt that to drop illegal white phosphorous bombs on Catholic housing estates in West Belfast would only create more violence in the future. I suppose we could have also bombed the IRA schools for good measure, but we didn't. I travelled to Belfast at that time and it was scary, very scary.

Now, when I am talking about responsible and forward looking Israelis I am referring to those who are looking beyond the accusation and counter accusation towards a time when Israel, Palestine, Lebanon and the other states of the region will actually live together in a genuine peace with open borders that will enable one to drive from Port Said to Beirut as easily as one can now drive from Rome to Amsterdam.

As you know, Zionism is about a homeland. This is a noble cause. However there are many interpretations of the form that homeland should take. Israel is strong and so she should be, but is that the end or the means to an end. There are many who are so drunk on smiting the philistines that it becomes a way of life.

There are others, like the brave members of Gush Shalom, who see things a different way. Correct, most (Jewish) Israelis were in favour of the "war" on Gaza, but not all were. I imagine many Brits would have been in favour of the death penalty for IRA terrorists. Does that mean it would have been right?

Personally, I just find it sad that whenever this issue comes up people always revert to one of two things:

Either they point fingers at one another and say "You started it" meaning this bomb is in retaliation for that bomb etc. We can go right back to the destruction of the King David Hotel (by Zionist terrorists / freedom fighters) or even before if we like, but where will this Tit for Tat take us? Nowhere.

Or they bring up the anti semitism / holocaust issue as an excuse for what Israel is doing now. This is also intellectually dishonest and also dangerous. In fact it is demeaning and disrespectful to the millions of souls who perished in the holocaust. I agree with Gerald Kaufman when he said in the House of Commons that what happened to his family under Hitler should not be used to justify every single action by Israel today, nor should it be used to paint all the Gentiles as guilty.

There are so many, many great Jewish thinkers, philosophers, actors and poets. The Jewish tradition has had an incredibly positive influence on humanity. So it is just a shame when the Jewish homeland is defended by small minded people. Far better, and a far greater defence, to look beyond the bloodshed and imagine a better future.

Oh, and don't say "they won't let us, or only if they stop first". Because isn't that what leadership is all about? Moving beyond the God of Wrath and Vengeance to the Loving of One's Neighbour as Oneself. Or moving beyond the petty and small minded to embrace the higher self. This is the true meaning of all great spiritual traditions.

Best wishes

A friend of Israel

Edited by paradox
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Replying to earlier post #9 bidingmytime .

If Palestine is the greatest receiver of aid per GDP .

Why does Humanitarian aid chief Louis Michel say in http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7851545.stm :

"Every year, we spend 600 to 700 million euros. Today we decided on a supplementary payment of 60 million euros."

If the yanks say they only paid $50 million in 2007 per , http://italy.usembassy.gov/pdf/other/RS22370.pdf

then who is paying more to get them over the "I have won the aid game limit" of $2,500 million the yanks pay to the Israilites per http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...d_to_Israel.gif ,

ie who pays to break "the recorded amount" .

That's a huge amount of money which would be shown up in either weapons or infastructure .

Non is evident .

Maybe the Palestians aren't actually the receivers of the most aid per GDP ?

Perhaps it's all pro-Israel boolsheet propagated by people who alter other posters quotes ie .

[email protected] altering my quote made at #26 in #73 .

Good propaganda .

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Why don't the Israelis just finish the Palestinians.

Squish em all.

Then there will be peace.

Amen.

There are far more Arabs in the Area, it would be more cost effective to remove Israel and hand the land back to the legal owners.

The Israeli's should hang for their war crimes................and that comes from someone that had sypathy for them last year, but they have truly nailed their colours to the mast.

If Israel didnt exist, the world would certainly be a far happier place. The wars over the past decade are all linked to Israel, its time to cut Israel off and let them stand on their own two feet. Why are British Troops fighting for a problem created by Israel ?

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Guest Steve Cook
There are far more Arabs in the Area, it would be more cost effective to remove Israel and hand the land back to the legal owners.

The Israeli's should hang for their war crimes................and that comes from someone that had sypathy for them last year, but they have truly nailed their colours to the mast.

If Israel didnt exist, the world would certainly be a far happier place. The wars over the past decade are all linked to Israel, its time to cut Israel off and let them stand on their own two feet. Why are British Troops fighting for a problem created by Israel ?

yes

agree with all of this

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The wars over the past decade are all linked to Israel, its time to cut Israel off and let them stand on their own two feet. Why are British Troops fighting for a problem created by Israel ?

Eh? :blink: What are you referring to?

If you're referring to Iraq, you could argue it was our doing in the first place. Iraq's borders were abitrarily created after WW II.

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Guest Steve Cook
Eh? :blink: What are you referring to?

If you're referring to Iraq, you could argue it was our doing in the first place. Iraq's borders were abitrarily created after WW II.

oh yes, this is also true....

As it the creation of israel

we are responsible for that aswell

Or at least in part. The main responsibility lies with the US.

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After WW II, terrorists in 'Palestine' used to blow up British troops. There was a lot of violence there before the state of Israel was created. They have both experienced it and carried it out for 70+ years.

In November 1944, Etzel ( a militant group operating in the British Mandate of Palestine from 1931 to 1948) assassinated Lord Moyne, the British minister in Cairo.

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Thanks for the clarification. What happens to children in these places is appalling and not their fault.

The point I am making is that HAMAS do not help the situation in there glorification of violence and terrorism....celebrating attrocities in USA, Britain, Spain, Israel.....parading babies with suicide bombers vests. Surely there are better ways to bring up your children.

Once you have voted in a terrorist organisation to power it is very difficult to get them to relinquish it and it is usually the people who suffer.

Exactly. But as Israel has the greater influence in the area, it does rather fall to them to instigate change.

The fundamental problem, of course, is that ancient fairy tale, warmly believed to be correct by a very large number in the US. Just as the US financially supported the IRA, and kept that war running, so they are now doing the same for the Middle East. Remember we are not talking about Judaism, but about Zionism -- the illegal occupation of land because someone nicked it from their great...granddads, a couple of millennia ago.

Until the US decides it has better things to spend its money on (such as their own economy!) the problem will persist. While we have an unequal balance of power, and a zealous desire by the Israelis to apply that power, we will continue to have the serious problems in region.

So really the answer has to be focused towards the US, and get them to give sensible thought to the problem. I don't see anything changing there yet, but 'it's the economy, stupid' may play a part, and sooner rather than later.

Tick, tock...

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