Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum

Tony Benn To Bbc - "people Will Die Because Of The Bbc"


Recommended Posts

Not sure what this has to do with house prices.

In any case, if we are going to debate this very complex issue, lets have a serious debate...

In my previous post on page 3 of this thread I list the four possible solutions to the Israel - Palestine conflict.

Which solution do you prefer? and why?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 140
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

No, it's to show that no matter how hard they try Biff and Wilma (Oh, yes, I know that book) aren't guaranteed to win. Would you rather they showed Kipper winning the X Factor, Floppy running away with the Crufts trophy or Chip winning the lottery? What would that give your kids? Hope that they might get lucky? Or expectations that if they don't come first then they're a failure?

Kids are tired of being shown unattainable goals which they have no control over. My eldest is constantly lording it over my youngest, aggrandising herself by putting him down, and I'm sure to nip it in the bud; it's not productive and hang it, it's not nice. Personal development plans and parental involvement are the way forward; there'll be plenty of time to compete with their peers in an adverserial manner when they leave school.

Besides, Floppy and the Alien's better - he saves them from fireballs.

Whats wrong with then winning - some other kid crying because their gokart broke and they came last, and them giving their winning kart to the poor crying kid. That's what hapenned in my day and it exhibits grace in victory, generosity, kindness, etc .

Its got nothing to do with luck(winning the lottery) or popularity (x factor) - they worked hard, as a team, made the best of a bad situation & should have won - because that's how this world should be. I bet the winning kart was sponsored by some bank and Gordon brown changed the rules so that only karts of that colour could win.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Not sure what this has to do with house prices.

In any case, if we are going to debate this very complex issue, lets have a serious debate...

In my previous post on page 3 of this thread I list the four possible solutions to the Israel - Palestine conflict.

Which solution do you prefer? and why?

Hamas and Iran want to try that other final solution proposed by Germany which may never have actually happened.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is nothing, absolutely nothing which the BBC relishes more than a story about itself.

Witness the Andrew Gilligan/Panorama affair, Ross and Brand, even the BBC's shunning of Crufts. Robert Peston, of course, thinks he is the news. All these executives just love coming down to the studio and being interviewed live on air, confirming to themselves that they are indeed Very Important People.

Link to post
Share on other sites
No, it's to show that no matter how hard they try Biff and Wilma (Oh, yes, I know that book) aren't guaranteed to win. Would you rather they showed Kipper winning the X Factor, Floppy running away with the Crufts trophy or Chip winning the lottery? What would that give your kids? Hope that they might get lucky? Or expectations that if they don't come first then they're a failure?

Kids are tired of being shown unattainable goals which they have no control over.

I also can't tell whether you're being sarcastic.

One of my favourite series of books as a child (a little older than Biff and Wilma's audience) was the Starstormers series where 4 or 5 children (I forget which) got to run a spaceship and have adventures on different planets...

I knew then and there that my life was a failure. I wanted to be one of them, but I knew that I would fail. That no matter how hard I tried, I would never be a pre-teen astronaut.

And the nauseating stench of failure has made me the bitter, disappointed reject I am today.

Now as an adult, Hollywood shows me films about handsome, athletic, suave secret agents. I'd love to be a secret agent but I can't lie because my face goes red.

It's just salt in the wound. And how it hurts.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Not sure what this has to do with house prices.

In any case, if we are going to debate this very complex issue, lets have a serious debate...

In my previous post on page 3 of this thread I list the four possible solutions to the Israel - Palestine conflict.

Which solution do you prefer? and why?

You forgot

5. The American Israelis go back to a country that provides them no threat, the US stops subsidising an unsustainable immigrant culture, and Palestine goes back to being a place for the native Arabs and Jews who got along fairly happily until Ben Gurion.

Not that I agree with it, but you did put in an Endschlossung, so I think it at least deserves an airing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest sillybear2
Whats wrong with then winning - some other kid crying because their gokart broke and they came last, and them giving their winning kart to the poor crying kid. That's what hapenned in my day and it exhibits grace in victory, generosity, kindness, etc .

They should have won, then they would be paid a bonus and prize money (winner takes all) which they would use to pimp their cart, so they can mock and kick the crap out of the losers carts to dump them out the race. They would then smash their pimped cart into a tree and cry and threaten the government of Toy Town into giving them enough money to buy a new one, all the other carts in Toy Town now have tax discs on them, whenever the winners came second they would bribe the officials with their own money into kicking the winners into third place. And they would all live happily ever after, and when they grew up they all went to work in the City.

Edited by sillybear2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Nickelodeon for your reply.

The Pale Rider, I think a few minutes serious research and reflection will inform you that the only nation with nuclear weapons in the Middle East is Israel.

Hamas is a rag tag armed militia, Israel is a heavily armed state, and has every right to be.

If Iran ever actually develops nuclear weapons (very unlikely this will be allowed to happen) and then launches them at Israel (even less likely), this would mean the end of Tehran and plenty of other Iranian cities plus the effective end of Israel and Palestine given the small densely populated area that both people share.

Hitler was able to pursue his wicked ways because he had total control over the population he wanted to suppress. Rather like Israel has total control over the Palestinians. Therefore your hypothesis is extremely unlikely Pale Rider... but I suggest you already know this.

It is more interesting to move beyond slogans and look to solutions, which of the four solutions do you prefer, and why?

Link to post
Share on other sites
I also can't tell whether you're being sarcastic.

One of my favourite series of books as a child (a little older than Biff and Wilma's audience) was the Starstormers series where 4 or 5 children (I forget which) got to run a spaceship and have adventures on different planets...

I knew then and there that my life was a failure. I wanted to be one of them, but I knew that I would fail. That no matter how hard I tried, I would never be a pre-teen astronaut.

And the nauseating stench of failure has made me the bitter, disappointed reject I am today.

Now as an adult, Hollywood shows me films about handsome, athletic, suave secret agents. I'd love to be a secret agent but I can't lie because my face goes red.

It's just salt in the wound. And how it hurts.

It's a balancing act - do you tell kids how things ARE, and make them feel better about their place in it; the strength to change what they can and the grace to accept what they can't. . .?

Or do you show them how things SHOULD be, and push them to reach those heights, only telling them afterwards that it doesn't matter that they didn't hit the moon, because they surpassed the stars?

I seriously don't know; but I have a gut reaction against lying to my kids.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Thank you Nickelodeon for your reply.

The Pale Rider, I think a few minutes serious research and reflection will inform you that the only nation with nuclear weapons in the Middle East is Israel.

Hamas is a rag tag armed militia, Israel is a heavily armed state, and has every right to be.

If Iran ever actually develops nuclear weapons (very unlikely this will be allowed to happen) and then launches them at Israel (even less likely), this would mean the end of Tehran and plenty of other Iranian cities plus the effective end of Israel and Palestine given the small densely populated area that both people share.

Hitler was able to pursue his wicked ways because he had total control over the population he wanted to suppress. Rather like Israel has total control over the Palestinians. Therefore your hypothesis is extremely unlikely Pale Rider... but I suggest you already know this.

It is more interesting to move beyond slogans and look to solutions, which of the four solutions do you prefer, and why?

B looks like a goer.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Pale Rider

One thing that is interesting is that the longer time goes on the more that solution b. becomes more difficult.

Interestingly, some in Israel are now talking about solution a) whilst the right wing are moving toward solution d). I don't think that Egypt or Jordan would accept this, nor would most of Palestinian society.

Sadly, solution c) seems to be the order of the day for the time being.

Personally I think solution b. (as outlined in my first post) is probably the best one. If there is a customs union, monetary union etc then over time it the two states may become part of some kind of Middle Eastern Union with Lebanon etc.

Impossible dream? Look at what happened in Europe after two world wars, or what happened in South Africa after Apartheid.

Look how much the world has changed in the last 80 years or so. Who knows what it will be like in 80 years time?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Not posted on here since 2006, STR in 2005, now living abroad.

Not sure what this thread has got to do with houseprices but I think it is worth adding a few factual points.

1) There are no Palestinian states, and to say that there are is a travesty. The population living under Israel's control in the West Bank and the Gaza strip are stateless. They have no freedom of movement, cannot vote in Israeli elections, have no passports, no international airports / ports. There is no possibility to trade freely as all goods and service are controlled by Israel. Even the taxes, banking system, electricity and water supply is under Israeli control. However they can vote in elections for bodies that are less than useless because they have no control over anything that really matters. This situation has continued since 1967 and is freely admitted and discussed in Israel itself - see Haaretz website or Gush Shalom website. So sorry, there is no Palestinian state.

2) This lack of trade, even worse now that Israel has bombed the last cement factory in Gaza, is the reason why the aid is needed. Palestinians, who used to have an economy, are now dependent on handouts. And this actually suits both corrupt elements in Palestinian society and Israel itself. Tony Blair, in his role as Quartet Envoy has attempted to kick start the economy and tried to persuade Israel to permit trade between the West Bank and Gaza, but to no avail. He was dealing with the owner of the cement factory that was bombed. The famous tunnels, as well as bringing arms, bring all sorts of goods because there is no other way to get things in and out of Gaza. It is a prison. The Egyptians are happy to collude with this.

3) In fact the biggest recipients of US aid are Israel, Egypt and Iraq. These three have received the lions share of aid for a long time (this is aid in all its forms, loans, etc).

4) Since 1967 there have been a variety of attempts to resolve the situation. Israeli politicians have said that if they were in the position of the Palestinians, they would also take up arms.

5) The Hamas group fires rockets into Israel, ETA blows up bombs in Madrid, the IRA very nearly succeeded in blowing up the entire British cabinet at the Tory conference in Brighton.

6) Spain did not drop bombs on Bilbao, Britain did not fire illegal white phosphorus weapons on schools in West Belfast, despite the fact that the kids there had fathers who were probably IRA sympathisers.

There are four potential solutions to this conflict.

a) A "one state" solution, like that of South Africa and Northern Ireland, in which communities still dislike each other but agree to live in a single state, with equal rights. This would be about 60% jewish on current numbers.

B) A "two state" solution in which Gaza and the West Bank become a proper country with full membership of the UN. There could be a currency union with Israel and a joint central bank. Maybe even a joint security force.

c) A "final solution" in which Israel does to the Palestinians what Hitler did to the Jews, and expels / kills / permanently terrorises them.

d) A "three state" solution in which Egypt agrees to accept Gaza as part of its territory and Jordan accepts the West Bank as part of its territory.

All four solutions have their advocates in Israeli society. Which do you prefer? And why?

Mods, I suggest this discussion is moved off the house price discussion forum

b looks the best!

Both communities would if they chose to honour the agreement get a taste of peace security and relative prosperity and perhaps sometime in the future closer relations could be fostered once the hatred is forgotten. Much like the Irish situation and solution.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks Pale Rider

One thing that is interesting is that the longer time goes on the more that solution b. becomes more difficult.

Interestingly, some in Israel are now talking about solution a) whilst the right wing are moving toward solution d). I don't think that Egypt or Jordan would accept this, nor would most of Palestinian society.

Sadly, solution c) seems to be the order of the day for the time being.

Personally I think solution b. (as outlined in my first post) is probably the best one. If there is a customs union, monetary union etc then over time it the two states may become part of some kind of Middle Eastern Union with Lebanon etc.

Impossible dream? Look at what happened in Europe after two world wars, or what happened in South Africa after Apartheid.

Look how much the world has changed in the last 80 years or so. Who knows what it will be like in 80 years time?

Agreed. The election of Barack Obama is a case in point when you look back 40 years to the segregation in the USA.

Even though the emancipation of the African American was gained in the 1860s it took another 100 years to convince the people who mattered, and longer for the bias to be overcome.

Link to post
Share on other sites
a) A "one state" solution, like that of South Africa and Northern Ireland, in which communities still dislike each other but agree to live in a single state, with equal rights. This would be about 60% jewish on current numbers.

I'm not sure where you get the 60% from. In a single state that encompassed Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, Arabs would be in the majority. Quite a substantial majority if all the Palestinain refugees claiming a right of return were allowed back in. That's a large part of the reason most Israeli Jews don't give a single state solution serious consideration; it'd meaning giving up on the idea of a Jewish majority state.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Cheers me dear .

Interesting read .

US aid does seem disproportionate .

2007 $50mill to Palestine and $2,500mill to Israel http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...d_to_Israel.gif .

I suppose American weapons are expensive .

Be interesting to know how much the oil rich, limo driving Arab countries contribute to the Palestinians. Anyone know?

1 Samuel 4:10 (King James Version)

10And the Philistines fought, and Israel was smitten, and they fled every man into his tent:

and there was a very great slaughter;

for there fell of Israel thirty thousand footmen.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5. The American Israelis go back to a country that provides them no threat, the US stops subsidising an unsustainable immigrant culture, and Palestine goes back to being a place for the native Arabs and Jews who got along fairly happily until Ben Gurion.

Accept that most Jewish immigrants to Israel/Palestine came from Europe (mostly from Russia). Immigration from the US to Israel is a relatively modern phenomenon.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I also can't tell whether you're being sarcastic.

One of my favourite series of books as a child (a little older than Biff and Wilma's audience) was the Starstormers series where 4 or 5 children (I forget which) got to run a spaceship and have adventures on different planets...

I knew then and there that my life was a failure. I wanted to be one of them, but I knew that I would fail. That no matter how hard I tried, I would never be a pre-teen astronaut.

And the nauseating stench of failure has made me the bitter, disappointed reject I am today.

Now as an adult, Hollywood shows me films about handsome, athletic, suave secret agents. I'd love to be a secret agent but I can't lie because my face goes red.

It's just salt in the wound. And how it hurts.

Thank you for posting that. I thought it was just me :o. I still have the first one, I re-read it a little while back, even has a temptingly practical blueprint at one point (as long as you can get hold of a hollowed out asteroid and a mass drive obviously). Has a surprising amount of that authentic 70s bleakness (the sky is always grey, it is always raining and cold) at the beginning that used to pervade children's books and also BBC sci-fi and drama (e.g., the original Survivors, Blakes 7 etc). Did they ever find their parents? I don't recall.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.