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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11...rants-bill.html

'Sixth-formers face tougher competition for university places after ministers demanded an admissions clampdown to curb the spiralling student grants bill.

Universities Secretary John Denham has cut the number of additional places for the next academic year despite rising applications, and has frozen expansion plans for 2010/11.

He also urged universities to 'eliminate over-recruiting' - leaving academics with little option but to make fewer, more demanding offers

Instead, Mr Denham called on institutions to fund thousands of courses for professionals who have lost their jobs in the recession, helped with a £50million 'war chest' raised from the cut in VAT.

The announcement, in a letter to university funding chiefs, is the first indication that the Government will fall short of its target to boost university recruitment to 50 per cent of school leavers by 2010.

John Denham says universities are recruiting too many sixth-formers

Ministers have previously insisted that university expansion is vital to Britain's future prosperity.

However, Mr Denham was forced to admit last year that his department had a £200million hole in its finances after underestimating how many undergraduates would be eligible for grants.

Some 130,000 students each year - all from middle-income families - will see their maintenance grants either cut or scrapped altogether. Last year, Mr Denham insisted any increase in student numbers smaller than 40,000 per year by 2010/11 was 'not an adequate response to global challenges'. This year, the increase will be just 30,000.

In a letter to the Higher Education Funding Council, he said additional student numbers for 2009/10 would be cut to 10,000 - 5,000 less than anticipated.

'If too many students are accepted, teaching funds may have to be returned to the Treasury to meet the unexpected costs of student grants,' he added.

David Willetts, Tory education spokesman, said: 'These figures will come as a shock to sixth formers, to people who want to upskill during the recession, and to employers needing higher skills.'

Wes Streeting, president of the National Union of Students, added: 'We are concerned that the welcome expansion of higher education through additional student numbers has been curtailed this year - and that decisions about additional places in future years have been put on hold.' '

........................

see my sig and the comment from tinker which I loved.

Know a few people who do student BTL and they really have been the worst for saying

'you can't go wrong with bricks and mortar'.

None have ever known dropping student numbers but why will kids want to get £30k in debt to be jobless?

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Ministers have previously insisted that university expansion is vital to Britain's future prosperity.

IMO it's essential to Britain's future prosperity that Higher Education contracts by at least 50%

The current situation is a farce, as an employer it's very obvious to me that the current 'mass production' by our universities simply churns out rubbish - To my disbeleif I have yet to interveiw even a PHD grad with a basic grasp of fundimental engineering principals.

Therefore PAYE funding for education is the only way to go IMO. If students have to WORK to fund their education (as in the USA) then they HAVE to find a subject that is economicaly usefull; subsidy just creates distortion in the skills market

Edited by Sonic the Hedge Fund

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On the other hand, our education is now extremely cheap for overseas students - education is one of our few remaining lucrative exports!

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IMO it's essential to Britain's future prosperity that Higher Education contracts by at least 50%

The current situation is a farce, as an employer it's very obvious to me that the current 'mass production' by our universities simply churns out rubbish - To my disbeleif I have yet to interveiw even a PHD grad with a basic grasp of fundimental engineering principals.

We employed a "science graduate" a couple of years ago who not only did not know how to add up a list of numbers in an Excel spreadsheet she also did not have the ability to find out how to do it she waited to be shown how to do it.

I dunno, I was sure that even the very worst graduate in a science based subject (she claimed it was some kind of biological science) would have come across and needed to use Excel to handle data?

(at the very worst I would have expected her to be able to e-mail a friend and ask how to do it rather than make herself look stupid - I have to confess having to do that once when I started a job once :))

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We employed a "science graduate" a couple of years ago who not only did not know how to add up a list of numbers in an Excel spreadsheet she also did not have the ability to find out how to do it she waited to be shown how to do it.

I dunno, I was sure that even the very worst graduate in a science based subject (she claimed it was some kind of biological science) would have come across and needed to use Excel to handle data?

(at the very worst I would have expected her to be able to e-mail a friend and ask how to do it rather than make herself look stupid - I have to confess having to do that once when I started a job once :))

You can't expect a biologist to have anything to do with numbers!

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We employed a "science graduate" a couple of years ago who not only did not know how to add up a list of numbers in an Excel spreadsheet she also did not have the ability to find out how to do it she waited to be shown how to do it.

I dunno, I was sure that even the very worst graduate in a science based subject (she claimed it was some kind of biological science) would have come across and needed to use Excel to handle data?

(at the very worst I would have expected her to be able to e-mail a friend and ask how to do it rather than make herself look stupid - I have to confess having to do that once when I started a job once :))

What astounds me is the complete lack of initiative of the most qualified; they cannot deal with even the most basic chalenges by themselves. I have come across very high grade engineering grads who can't cope with somthing as simple as changing a fuse!

By way of an analogy IMO the target culture lead uni's to drip feeding their students, and as a consequence their digestive system stops working so they are unable to feed themselves.

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she also did not have the ability to find out how to do it she waited to be shown how to do it.

It's this that really gets my blood boiling when dealing with co-workers and subordinates and it's definitely correlated with youth. I've had to deal with people who have literally just stopped doing a task for days because they didn't know a piece of information or came across a problem and at no point did it cross their mind to ask someone, send an email or even use the internet for something other than Facebook and look it up. Seeing as I'm not allowed to just fire people on the spot for being wasters, I have to spend my time enduring the blank expressions and excuses when I point out that they're doing c*ck all.

When you get this attitude in a graduate with a supposed decent degree from a decent University, you have to assume that they've been spoon-fed through their higher education as well.

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Instead, Mr Denham called on institutions to fund thousands of courses for professionals who have lost their jobs in the recession, helped with a £50million 'war chest' raised from the cut in VAT.

That's an interesting way to fund a war chest. Clearly this article was written by a recent economics graduate.

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When you get this attitude in a graduate with a supposed decent degree from a decent University, you have to assume that they've been spoon-fed through their higher education as well.

I have no doubts at all that the fecklessnes of youth that prevails today is a direct consequence of our target driven education system.

It's very obvious in that the sharpest indiviuals (i.e. the people without whom nothing at all would get done) in just about any workplace are most often not highly educated.

Edited by Sonic the Hedge Fund

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It's very obvious in that the sharpest indiviuals (i.e. the people without whom nothing at all would get done) in just about any workplace are most often not highly educated.

Yeah, I prefer my surgeons self-taught, too...

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I have no doubts at all that the fecklessnes of youth that prevails today is a direct consequence of our target driven education system.

It's very obvious in that the sharpest indiviuals (i.e. the people without whom nothing at all would get done) in just about any workplace are most often not highly educated.

Reverse snobbishness anti intellectualism at its finest.

I tend to find the people in the workplace who attained nothing educationally are often thick as ******.

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That's an interesting way to fund a war chest. Clearly this article was written by a recent economics graduate.

I don't know, maybe he's onto something. If the government cuts a load of taxes, they can use the resulting war chests to fund the 3rd bank bail out. Someone tell Gordo. ;)

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Reverse snobbishness anti intellectualism at its finest.

I tend to find the people in the workplace who attained nothing educationally are often thick as ******.

They're usually the cleaners.

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We employed a "science graduate" a couple of years ago who not only did not know how to add up a list of numbers in an Excel spreadsheet she also did not have the ability to find out how to do it she waited to be shown how to do it.

I dunno, I was sure that even the very worst graduate in a science based subject (she claimed it was some kind of biological science) would have come across and needed to use Excel to handle data?

(at the very worst I would have expected her to be able to e-mail a friend and ask how to do it rather than make herself look stupid - I have to confess having to do that once when I started a job once :))

If she was an IT grad fair enough. Biologists dont tend to use excel though.

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IMO it's essential to Britain's future prosperity that Higher Education contracts by at least 50%

The current situation is a farce, as an employer it's very obvious to me that the current 'mass production' by our universities simply churns out rubbish - To my disbeleif I have yet to interveiw even a PHD grad with a basic grasp of fundimental engineering principals.

Therefore PAYE funding for education is the only way to go IMO. If students have to WORK to fund their education (as in the USA) then they HAVE to find a subject that is economicaly usefull; subsidy just creates distortion in the skills market

Obviously as an employer your needs are more important than anyone else's. I trust that you work 24/7 as if your ideas were implemented in a couple of decades' time you will find that arts, humanities, etc have withered away. What a dull boring world that will be.

Meanwhile we will get ever better at producing more and more widgets that nobody actually needs, with armies of ad men doing their best to sell them to us. We can produce millions more cars to stockpile at ports and old runways, lots more planes so we can park them in the Mojave desert, lots more computers so we can ship the old ones to India to be broken up in the midst of an environmental disaster zone. Yeah, let's just keep on making more and more stuff until we run out of resources, then when we are completely and utterly phuqed we can - do what? Sit around and read great novels, listen to great music, watch great theatre - no. Because all the people who might have produced more stuff have been co-opted into our death-wish "society" that seems to be hell-bent on making more and more stuff until we cut down the last trees and dredge the last lot of oil shale.

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If she was an IT grad fair enough. Biologists dont tend to use excel though.

Excel is a technician skill. Not a professional or graduate one. An IT grad who rebels at "dumbing down" might go to some lengths to avoid the ghastly thing when some benighted employer expects them to use it.

Nevertheless, a grad should really have the nouse to figure it out.

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We employed a "science graduate" a couple of years ago who not only did not know how to add up a list of numbers in an Excel spreadsheet she also did not have the ability to find out how to do it she waited to be shown how to do it.

I dunno, I was sure that even the very worst graduate in a science based subject (she claimed it was some kind of biological science) would have come across and needed to use Excel to handle data?

(at the very worst I would have expected her to be able to e-mail a friend and ask how to do it rather than make herself look stupid - I have to confess having to do that once when I started a job once :))

I used to teach Geology undergrads and it was a bit worrying having third year soon-to-be-BSc students who not only could not handle basic Trigonometery but seemed affronted that they might be expected to, or that they were expected to know it.

I think there's also the consumerist attitude - 'I am a customer of the University, therefore you can't be nasty to me by insisting that I learn stuff or, heaven forbid, actually failing me'. We are migrating to the American system - a couple of decades ago the quality of US graduates was a running joke, we seem to be copying that.

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I used to teach Geology undergrads and it was a bit worrying having third year soon-to-be-BSc students who not only could not handle basic Trigonometery but seemed affronted that they might be expected to, or that they were expected to know it.

I think there's also the consumerist attitude - 'I am a customer of the University, therefore you can't be nasty to me by insisting that I learn stuff or, heaven forbid, actually failing me'. We are migrating to the American system - a couple of decades ago the quality of US graduates was a running joke, we seem to be copying that.

The mistake, I think, is to blame it on "the system". Its the people coming into it. Either they have what it takes or they don't. However much you improve a system it cannot polish a turd.

I can understand their desire to see high numbers of the UK people being very well educated. The place to start was at the bottom. Get it right for the younger ones and, in time, you may have more worthwhile entrants to university. Simply opening the doors wider to those who'd not had the luck to receive a good grounding was never going to produce more genuine abilty.

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If she was an IT grad fair enough. Biologists dont tend to use excel though.

Yes they do!

Every branch of science requires some ability of dealing with data.

When I was at University (a proper one not an ex tech college) not only was Excel used much of the time across all subjects (I did units in Biology/meterology/geography/geology in my early years) but it was also expected to be at a reasonably high level.

Any subject at a University that involves any form of research or data handling (and at University level they should be doing that kind of stuff?) should be using Excel (or something simliar) to handle the data or at least draw lots of pretty graphs.

If anything the IT graduate would not know what to do with Excel as they probably would have spent their time doing proper things on the computer rather than spending hours on the Chart Wizard trying to get their bar graphs to look pretty ;)

Edited by lulu

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i think its clear that university is a holding ground for school leavers. University should be renamed sixth form and when they graduate they should be able to apply to go to university.

all university does is provide a fertile ground for hedonism and reduces the number of occupational injuries such as 19 year olds getting squished in the card board box sqasher because they thought it would look cool on you tube.

lock all teenagrs up until their 30. its the only way

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Obviously as an employer your needs are more important than anyone else's. I trust that you work 24/7 as if your ideas were implemented in a couple of decades' time you will find that arts, humanities, etc have withered away. What a dull boring world that will be.

...when we are completely and utterly phuqed we can - do what? Sit around and read great novels, listen to great music, watch great theatre - no. Because all the people who might have produced more stuff have been co-opted into our death-wish "society" that seems to be hell-bent on making more and more stuff until we cut down the last trees and dredge the last lot of oil shale.

Right, because, as we all know, all great musicians, artists and writers get their talent and drive from their degree choice.

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Reverse snobbishness anti intellectualism at its finest.

No you have got me all wrong, I think great intillect is vital to the advancement of society. Medical science and technology have brought enourmous benfits to mankind.

But where would we be without those great accademic minds who put together all those ingenious financial instruments which allowed them to inflate and ultimately destroy our economies? Or those clever folks who put together nuclear warheads?

The point I am making in these examples is that it's no use being 'clever' or well educated without any appreciation of context; thinking outside the box. In my experience education tends to narrow an individual's perspectives the further they go; the most highly qualified often seem positively blinkered.

So it's the application of intillect within our education system that I think is all wrong, not interllect itself.

Consequently the point I am atempting to make is that some of the sharpest indiviuals seem to bypass the education system altogether - and thats not to say all uneducated individuals are smart; because that is obviously not true.

Edited by Sonic the Hedge Fund

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Right, because, as we all know, all great musicians, artists and writers get their talent and drive from their degree choice.

No, they don't. But universities provide the patronage that enables these areas to flourish. Research into extraordinary ability comes up with the number of 10,000 hours - that's about three years at nine hours a day. The only way you can get to put in that sort of level of commitment is by either claiming the dole or by going to university. Since hpcers hate doleites, that leaves university. And lots of creative people top up incomes by teaching; who will they teach if the only courses offered are science and engineering?

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  • 285 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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