madpenguin

It's just trying to get access to the Indian market. TBH I can see a major upset for people predicting the economic rise of India eclipsing China, if you compare the precision and organisation of the Olympics compared to the travesty of the Commonwealth Games (along with a lot of contact with offshored/onshored IT projects) I am highly skeptical of India becoming anything other than a body shop. Now at the moment Indian IT companies enjoy an advantage in being able to use a cheaper cost of living within their country and lower wages, however success means wages begin to rise, and already inflation is a big problem for the Indian economy.(Had this discussion with a director at work the other day, he was of the opinion Indian IT staff were already becoming "too expensive" in comparison with Eastern Europeans who are already in the EU, well educated, can usually speak several languages, and don't have the personal initiative problems a lot of Indian nationals have) Western economies on the other hand are starting to see large scale unemployment, falling asset prices and a lowering of wages which means that on cost there will be a more level playing field (though that ignores a whole world of pain we will go through in terms of lower standard of living, loss of asset "wealth"). I suspect there will come a point where there is no economic advantage to hiring Indian staff, and at that point the Indian "economic miracle" will founder, as it's largely built on supplying services to the West cheaper than anyone else, if that market disappears what happens to the "economic miracle"?, however unlike the Chinese they don't have the advantage of a political dictatorship that can control their economy and respond much faster to changes than a democracy (Not saying it's right by the way, just the way it is the much vaunted "trains running on time " effect).

I've felt this for a long while, while the whole rotten system works there's no impetus to change it :angry:

I've had a distinctly uneasy feeling about these guys for some time now, they seem to be acquiring a number of banks in Europe as well as the ones we know about in the UK, all seems too "easy".

IT?, God no, IT is probably the worst affected industry for offshoring/onshoring/outsourcing.

I'm working there now and loving it! TBH everyone says about the high rate of tax in Europe but you need to take a holistic view of costs, yes the tax and VAT is higher but many of the costs are way lower, and they actually seem to provide something in return for your tax (as in public services and infrastructure), I find food drink and travel is cheap, rental accomodation is cheap in Germany but London prices for Amsterdam at the moment, and if you're in IT you can apply for the 30% rule. VAT in Hollands about 19.5% but even that differential will go if Dave has his way in January Public transport is perfect, only reason I can see to have a car in Amsterdam is moving heavy stuff from Ikea, though even then I find the average delivery charge is about 35 euros (done by weight max is about 170euros). When my British workmates here complain about the ridiculous rents in Amsterdam they are usually Northerners, I'm from London/Kent and about 800 pounds per month seems reasonable to me (gets you about 100 sq Meters).

I have worked with both Indian, English and US development teams (on the same project no less, shrink wrapped commercial software sold world wide ), the American attitude can best be summarised as Wild West "Hell let's just go into Visual Studio and start coding" (Spent a lot of time and nagging getting them to use the code repository properly), India was the exact opposite, needed everything documented, great reluctance to own up to any areas where they had a lack of knowledge, and wanted everything spelt out in writing, great reluctance to admit to work not being done or "slippage" in achieving goals, anything difficult they wanted "code samples". Biggest problems with the UK I've seen have been with UK managers, usually very poorly trained, very little technical knowledge, overly cowed by senior management and too obsessed with status (I've known plenty who won't eat or go down the pub with the rest of the staff).

And therein lies the problem for the UK economy (Not having a go at you Saberu I, I've often thought about the same thing). When one person does this it's a useful competitive advantage when everyone does it, it means economic collapse for the UK economy, or at least severe problems with employment. The most important priority for a business is to make a profit while paying as little in costs as is practically possible, the most important priority for a Government should be to maintain order and stability and the economic well being of the country. Successive Government's seem to have developed the mindset that whatever is good for business is good for the country which is clearly not the case. The Chinese government clearly has the right idea: China tells foreign businesses 'to stop complaining' http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/7999532/China-tells-foreign-businesses-to-stop-complaining.html

Chinese have told GE where to get off: "In the past year, a number of foreign companies have accused the Chinese government of deliberately tilting the playing field against them in order to help Chinese firms. "I'm not sure they want any of us to be successful," said Jeffrey Immelt, chief executive of General Electric, earlier this year. " China tells foreign businesses 'to stop complaining' http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/8001349/China-tells-foreign-businesses-to-stop-complaining.html Can we outsource our Business politicians to China?

Sorry just re read your original post properly!, yeah working conditions in India are horrendous, and the social costs pretty bad

While I appreciate the sentiments, I actually disagree, it's the Governments particularly of the UK and USA who have allowed this to happen, they should have increased the cost to companies who do this, not actively aided them. Imagine our cost base crashes through the floor (looking quite likely if this carries on), and the average person is paid pennies a day, you can bet we'd have foreign companies flooding in

This American company in it's many UK subsiduries employs mostly Indian ICT staff, been to a site where the PC desktop support, UNIX sysadmins, network infrastructure, and virtually all the other IT staff were Indian (they use TATA heavily), including directors. Have seen them send new technology developed in the UK to India for all further development, letting the UK developers go. With due respect your closing comment ( I think you are a c.u.n.t.) is way too weak. :angry:

Would never happen, India is notoriously strict about letting foreign workers in from what I hear.

Whoever you vote for, the Government always wins Especially these days, little to choose between them

, Too old for the armed forces, and besides I'm allergic to dying, mental institution has possibilities though...

Ah well, if the banks loose my money and the pension system collapses it's nice to know I have a fall back plan!

Guys get with the program, it's Ireland this week! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/8010097/Ireland-IMF-bail-out-rumours-spook-markets.html

I've always felt HMRC feel it is all their money and they just let you have a bit as sort of like pocket money, guess this confirms it

I find your lack of faith disturbing, report to your local diversity and equality centre immediately for re-education

The EU? you mean the World dear boy surely? Didn't realise the EU had a lead country Germany's approach to QE seems to have been quite different to the UK/US, they have spent a lot on infrastructure projects, had one of our German managers complaining recently he was late in due to roadworks over many parts of Germany "they are making everything into 6 lanes, why do I need a 6 lane motorway!!" lol, but at least construction workers, architects, and all the supporting industries have got the cash rather than our plan of supporting bankers bonuses

For a start we are all more or less in the same boat, and in some sense we are all interdependent on each other, the UK earns a lot (despite what some may say) from Europe and an economic slowdown across Europe would have financial implications for the UK and probably the US economies. If we proceed quickly I think it's pretty certain the economic effects would be nasty for everyone, and granted yes it could be the same if we go slowly, but at least with the slow approach the fall can be assessed and maybe even controlled to an extent, not pretending either choice is easy As a matter of fact I bet Germany loves the low Euro, they are major exporters, and their business has been roaring ahead lately

Will you write to Merv and the Condems and let them know or shall I? While I agree in simplistic terms the reality is if everything crashes to the floor immediately there will likely be severe social consequences, therefore most Governments are trying to do it gradually

In the case of bank failures, knock on effect for the whole economy, pension funds, personal savings, business failures etc (why has the UK government gone into the banking business, not on a whim I assure you). OK Greece defaults, large foreign banks go bust,- ok not their problem but definitely implications in other countries as per 1 , Government can no longer function or provide basic services, or raise funding internationally to keep anything running, probable large scale riots, strikes, civil disobedience, possibly reasonably stable Government replaced by dangerous extremists (see Germany 1930's, people in crisis make crap decisions on who is best to cure it )

1. Firstly by all accounts German and French banks have lent to Greek businesses, if Greece "goes under", they won't just be able to just sit on the sidelines and watch,some of their banks could go under 2. The oft repeated advice (usually from Euro sceptics) for Greece to leave (or be ejected) from the Euro wouldn't work, assume Greece readopt the drachma and devalue?, oh dear all their debt is in Euros! and now they have a currency worth significantly less so harder to pay back, probable result a very nasty default. 3. This isn't about individual Greek citizens sitting at home with their feet up, it's about a Government living beyond it's means (a lot of that going around). 4. All things considered I'd be far more worried about the UK and US than Greece, Greece has the other countries of the EU to potentially help them out, who does the US or UK have to turn to? (and the debts's are comparable or far larger, UK almost 1bn, Greece 1bn, US 10bn or so I hear) 5. Indications are that Greece is getting it's economy under control I think most of these politicians love the Greek crisis, classic misdirection [Press] "Mr Prime Minister, what are you going to do about the appalling UK economy" [PM] "OH MY GOD! look at Greece!!!"

Correct, in the UK you are subjected to a massive amount of crap about how high prices are due to "global conditions" and that "it's even worse in Europe". Last time I was in the UK a normal sized loaf of bread (factory produced Hovis or Kingsmill ) about £1.20 (6 months ago), I currently get fresh baked sliced white tiger bread baked that day in the supermarkets own bakery for 1 euro about 80-85p in UK money. I Spend only about 20-25 euros a week on me for shopping at present compared to 40-50 odd pounds in the UK (Lived in the South) In Germany went into a bank to pay a bill and because I didn't bank there the girl behind the counter said I'd have to pay a charge, I dutifully pulled out a 20 euro note, and there was a brief silence before she said "do you have anything smaller it's 2 euros!" All the utilities are way cheaper, Council tax a pittance (about 120 euros for a year, you can opt to pay in two halves!) and the banks appear to be firmly on a leash, (or maybe just fair!), my bank in Holland has a long glass fronted fridge behind the counter filled with bottled water, during the summer they just hand them to you when you come in (for whatever reason)

Very true Goldbug, software development is a skill vastly underrated by casual observers, I read a study somewhere where the difference in productivity and accuracy provided by an experienced programmer is x10 better.than a novice (some thing for manager who says "if we double the number of developers we'll finish twice as quickly" to think about, heard this a lot where ICT is used) Frequently ICT staff are fresh graduates or 2nd jobbers and I've worked on several projects where major parts of the system had to be re-coded from scratch 3-4 times as they where effectively "learning on the job" including some large Government projects used nationally. A good developer is literally worth his weight in gold