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About kotf

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  1. True, but I think the point is that while both the "working" class and the "middle class" are in reality both working classes, the middle class have developed a contempt for the (original) working class that didn't used to be there (at least not in the same way). The ruling classes just despise everyone else. I seem to remember Owen Jones' book "Chavs" is quite interesting but I can't remember the conclusion he came to..
  2. I guess I could have been clearer - no one has ever called me a leaver before! I'm referring to the transition period as the set-up. I'm most definitely not blaming the EU - I think they are doing us a favour by showing us what things might be like when we have no trade or other agreements with non-EU countries, without us being able to claim we are being punished. It will be clear that this is something we have done to ourselves. It was really a comment how the UK been completely out-maneuvered by the EU.
  3. Have we been nicely set up here? We get to taste a WTO world but the EU cannot be said to be punishing us. I wonder if this extends to aviation - we can only fly to the EU after April 2019?
  4. Not sure if this has been posted here before (I struggle to keep up with this thread) but I thought this was a really interesting piece about Cameron and why we are where we are: https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/the-inside-story-of-how-david-cameron-drove-britain-to-brexit It's long and bears re-reading!
  5. But you don't solve the problem unless you are proposing the introduction of controls on transport between NI and the mainland (i.e. for internal UK traffic). The only logical outcome is a hard border across Ireland and also one between England and Scotland (in the case of an independent Scotland in the EU). I don't see any difference between the cases.
  6. Isn't it the same as the problem we already know we will face with the Irish border?
  7. I don't doubt some of them did, but without similar polling for 1975 it's impossible to know whether it's a significant number or not. The polling we have for 2016 does have the very oldest voting in, so I say there is something to my theory..
  8. Do you have a breakdown of the age distribution of the 1975 vote? If not, then it seems possible that in 1975 it was the older generation who voted in (having experienced the 1930s and 40s) and the younger ones who voted out. Well, the younger ones are now the older ones and voted out again. No one changed their mind.
  9. Does "all that that entails" include membership of the WTO? There seem to be a lot of leavers that think that on departure we should automatically apply to join the WTO but not the single market or customs union, and that their view should prevail. That is what I mean by the 48% not having representation.
  10. No - if you're happy for parliament to take this forward from now on and do what it thinks is in the best interests of the country then that is fine by me. My objection is to those who insist that the referendum result means we cannot consider membership of the single market or customs union.
  11. A normal election results in parliamentary representation for more than just the winning party. It may not be proportional to the votes cast, but it is there to some degree. The vocal leavers in this debate seem to want no representation at all for the views of the 48%. The equivalent in a General Election would be banning all opposition parties from having any MPs. That is why this is the tyranny of the majority.
  12. And you've nicely brought this back to the original point. When were we asked about the single market? You assume that because you think single market=EU, so does everyone else. They are not the same thing, and some leave voters knew that.
  13. I agree it may be down to the company I keep. They do represent 66% of the people I know who I know voted leave, so possibly not very representative. But I'm not the one claiming to know why all leave voters voted the way they did - that's for you to prove if you want any kind of consensus on the outcome.
  14. I've just given an example of people who ticked the leave box for none of those reasons. Did you miss that?
  15. I know two people who voted out because they believe that the best future for everyone is for a fully federal European state to exist and the UK has always acted to prevent that happening. They did this believing the "Norway option" was a possibility for the UK. There is no evidence of a majority vote to leave the single market, customs union, end FOM or anything. It was a stupid question and it got a stupid answer as no one seems to know what the EU actually is.
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