andy welland
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Posts posted by andy welland
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Perhaps someone can clarify the "property rental tax" element.
My understanding is that this is payable,irrespective of whether or not the property is rented
From my perspective this would be disappointing news as i would have to pay 13.5% of something that i was not even receiving.
On a property which cost 250,000 euros, rental potential valued at say,8% that is 2,700 euros every year,
Is this correct? <_
Hi Soup, Magnate and Digs,
Digs - The information that you have seen on our website is a rough guide and you should always get professional advice on tax issues.
Soup and Magnate - I know that Soup is using CBA Law and we have started to recommend this company to our clients that are buying in Morocco. I spoke with Ross Coates last week and they have a new lawyer that is from the Tetouan area starting tomorrow who can also advise on Tax implications.
You may have noticed that there are more apartments showing as available on the JDF website, this is due to Property Logic having a clean up on clients that have had reservations placed for long periods of time but have not gone to private purchase contract.
Digs - I would look at the ground floor units in Block 11 - They are West facing and also close to the pool and Club House. I still prefer the RT7 plot more than RT2. The apartments are bigger, They are more central within the resort, They are closer to the Marina, and they are cheaper. Also they are within phase 2 of the development so they will complete later than RT2.
I also spoke with Superior yesterday (Oasis Beach and Golf) who have told me that they have purchased one of the locals within the Commercial center which they will be using for onsite rentals and resale's.
Regards,
Andy Welland
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I read on another board some time ago that LJDF villas will be flankd by 1st and 18th holes of one of the courses. Has anyone else heard this? I'm keen to know where club house will be. The closer the better.
Hi Soup
I have just phoned Property Logic to see if i can find out for you. It shouldnt be to hard as they have started to move the earth and create the water hazards on that golf course, plus they have also put in markers as to where the holes are going to be.
They said they will get back to me but failing that i will be there again on the 1st of september.
Andy
I read on another board some time ago that LJDF villas will be flankd by 1st and 18th holes of one of the courses. Has anyone else heard this? I'm keen to know where club house will be. The closer the better.
Hi Soup,
This is even quicker. Take a look at the picture attached, i got this from the following link
http://www.segalesgolf.net/disenyo.php?lang=eng&id=75
Andy
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Soup,
Have just got off the phone to Andy, and he has asked me to post that his internet is out and as soon as he is back up and running he will convey his thoughts on the matter. I too am interested in implications, I would also be interested in anything people know on the matter.
Hi Everyone,
Ok VAT in Morocco is a subject that I will be the first to admit is not my best subject, and I have seen lots of various postings on the subject saying that you have to pay it, you don't have to pay it and so on and so on.
If you take Saidia as an example Fadesa and Tasa promoted their prices and then added 14% VAT where as JDF and Oasis prices were inclusive of 14% VAT. If VAT was something that didn't apply to off plan property in Morocco then I am sure that as Saidia is the Kings and the Governments main focus at the moment it would have been bought up by now.
I have heard that there is possibly something going through that could reduce or take VAT off New Build properties.......I take this as exactly that, a possibility.
Until this becomes fact then everyone should understand that they are paying VAT, even on the Fadesa Kabila project the prices are inclusive of 14% VAT.
Lets say as an example that something is put in place for 1st of June 2007 and from that point there is no VAT on off plan property in Morocco.
a) Would this then apply to people who have purchased in 2005 / 2006 but don't complete until after this date?
Would this then be calculated and taken away from the final 60% that the client has to pay?c) How will it effect prices?
d) Will someone who buys on the 1st of June 2007 in effect be getting the property at the prices someone purchased for in mid 2006?
This is all speculation but I am sure these are the sort of things you are asking yourself now.
My advice would be this.
At this moment in time you should be aware that there is 14% VAT in the prices. If anything happens in the future that changes this then you will have to wait until you know the facts and how it will effect you. If you get anything back then see it as a bonus.
The one thing that I will add is that I cant see anyone getting property in Morocco for a price that is less than what you are paying now.
Hope this helps,
Andy
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phatpawz where have you bought and through what agent? Any links? I was so close to purchasing in Morroco a couple of weeks ago with Tanja but now I have some concerns with them. I've started looking at other developments in Morroco but prices seem to be all over the place. Im finding it hard to compare places and payment schemes. I don't want to commit to much money towards this venture (in the region of 20k-25k max).
Tanja had 2 bed apartments for 85k with a sea or golf view, but best of all only 25% deposit required the rest financed via a mortgage. If anyone can suggest what other places I should be considering. Help appreciated....
Hi Gasman,
If you email me on andy.welland@propertyshowrooms.com i will send you some details on Fadesa´s Kabila development on the Med Coast.
Andy
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I am told 'Saidia' will feature.
Could you let me know what is said within the program......only because i live in Spain and channel 5 is impossible to get in the UK, let alone over here.
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Thanks Andy
No problem, if you need any further info then please feel free to contact me directly.
Andy Welland
Overseas Property Manager
Property Showrooms
andy.welland@propertyshowrooms.com
Website: www.propertyshowrooms.com
Tel: +34 952 475 506 (Outside UK)
Tel: 0871 734 1851 (Within UK)
Fax: +34 952 917 461
E-Fax 0871 277 4725 (Within UK)
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Hi Big Log.
I understand your standpoint and until recently my stance would have been somewhere between yours and that of DogBox. But I have found my views changing. Take this comparison - not an ideal comparison, but I'm sure you'll get my point:
I've been to Estonia twice in last few months. Their economy is doing well and both property & land are appreciating at a very high rate. There are a lot of Estonians that can see how to make money if they had £30k or so to start with, but they simply don't have that kind of money. (Average salary is about £5k p.a. Very low considering prices of new build property there.) They have been priced out of their local property market - as will be happening in Saidia. Yet they don't complain. Things are much better for them now than before. Many of them remember what it was like to not have food or a roof over their heads from the Soviet era. They would not change back. So while there are the negatives you have mentioned, the benefits can outweigh them. That's my view anyway - more akin to views of Dogbox and others.
Its certainly encouraging to here about courses designed to help locals grasp the opportunities that will come thier way.
Hi Soup Dragon,
I noticed your posting on the C4 forum with regards to getting direct contact with developers so here goes.
La Saidia.
www.fadesa.co.uk - contact details available on their website.
www.lejardindefleur.com - Property Logic - no contact details available on ewebsite but send me a pm and i will give it to you.
www.oasismorocco.com - Superior - contactdetails available on their website
www.grupotasa.com - Tasa - Good luck with this one as their website is in spanish but should be in English within the next 2 weeks.
Other projects
Emaar - http://www.emaar.com/morocco/ - Not released yet
Port Lixus - Thomas and Piron - www.port-lixus.com - Villas being released next month
Mogador - Thomas and Piron - www.mogadoressaouira.com - Not yet released
Mazagan - Kerzner - http://www.northpoint.co.za/newsite/mazagan/mazagan.htm - Not yet released
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And ONLY a greedy fool stuck in the property hype groove will fail to realise that Moroccan's lives won't improve just because you've out-priced them out of their local market, in many ways, and not just in property.
How do you know the price of (e.g.) local produce will remain the same historically once you've arrived ? Could it not go up ridiculously due to the new local resident's deeper pockets ?? What, do farmers just grow more do they ?
And the other land owned by the locals, is mostly owned by the already affluent - so they'll only get richer. And what will they do ?? Give the poor ones a leg-up ?? No, make sure they *never* get up !
I didn't say pouring in Aid was the answer. Where did I say that ?
Where is YOUR BUSINESS MODEL that YOU are making. By buying a holiday home ?
And then what, flogging it off to the next Mug.
Locals learning to carry your Golf clubs will always remain at the bottom of society, don't kid yourself of that Dogbox.
Hi Big Log,
I know i said that things had gone a bit quite and then all of a sudden i come back from lunch and we have a full blown debate on our hands.
At the end of the day everyone has there own view which is the whole idea behind having this forum. The world would be a boring place if we were all the same.
Another point that nobody has mentioned yet is the 1200 affordable homes that Fadesa have to build over the next 5 years in the town of Saidia which will be for Key workers of the resort and will also be at a preset price of (please dont take this as an exact figure) 25,000€.
I can see that you are very passionate about Morocco Big Log and can also understand your concerns for the local people which really does impress me. I would really like it if you might send me a personal message on your real thoughts to the development in Morocco. I was in La Saidia on Friday and it was the first time that i have come through Oujda airport and seen military personel ( due to the kings visit ) He was supposed to be there on the Saturday but i understand that he actually arrived yesterday and there were thousands of people with flags along the streets and roads all the way from Oujda to Saidia.
It is very impotant for myself as an agent (to which i have never hidden the fact) to get the best overall view that i possible can. I promote this forum + channel 4, buying moroccan property and La Saidia/ Le Jardin de Fleur to all clients that i talk to and its great for them to get such a vast range of opinions.
Thanks,
Andy
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So basically no long-term intention.
Just cut and run, and sod the local economy.
How very noble.
Hi Big Log,
First of all i am glad to see that yourself and others are still coming to the forum as it seemed to go quite for a little while, also unlike other chat sites this one seems to be keeping a level head about it and we are able to have an adult conversation with each other and post genuine views and opinions.
I didnt mean to sound as though i agreed with what Dog Box asked. It is just that if someone asked me that question then it would suggest that their intention was to sell it on after a couple of years.
I also think that it doesnt matter where in the World people buy, there will always be people that are buying for an investment to then flip it and move on.
Please put this into context though as this is the only posting on this forum that i have ever seen the question asked and to be honest i dont think that one person who wants to buy a marina birth and look at it as a quick / short term investment will have a dramatic effect on the local economy.
I think that in 3 years time there will be plenty of end user clients that would love to take on a marina birth that didnt have the opportunity, confidence or forsight to buy one now and that is why they will then pay a higher premium for that product, he also would have to offer it to Fadesa first who are going to be setting the minimum sales price anyway.
If you asked the question to everyone who has bought in La Saidia then i would guess that at least 80% of them if not more at this current moment in time will be looking to sell at some point in the future. It could be 3 years, 5 years, 10 years or even 20 but they will be looking to sell on.
The majority of people who buy abroad are not looking for a relocation they are either looking for a holiday home, rental property or pure investment.
Also please find attached some pictures from last Friday
Good to chat with you Big Log
Andy
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Why ??
So you can sell and run ??
Hi Big Log,
Why else would he ask the question hahahahaha
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Hi fabs and everyone else,
Not much being said at the moment and I know the Port - Lixus info probably wasnt what everyone wanted to hear but if any of you are interested in the Emaar projects then hopefully we might have some news very soon.
All i can give you at the moment is a website where you can see an overview of there 5 projects so check out http://www.emaar.com/morocco/
Some of you may have already seen it but if not its worth a look.
Hope this helps
I am also in La Saidia this friday so will i will take some new pictures for you all.
Andy
Just a bit of a general update for everyone, I have just got the first artist impressions on the Kerzner project at Mazagan which i have attached to this posting.
Also I was in La Saidia on Friday and was quite impressed as i have not been there for a few weeks. So here is a bit of an update....The King was visiting the site on the Saturday so there was lots of activity everywhere from Oujda airport all the way to Saidia. In the villages along the route they were painting everything from curbstones, walls and even the bottoms of the trees and generally having a really good tidy up. In the resort itself they have now started construction on 4 of the hotels and both the Barcelo hotel and the Magnum projects are well under way about 60 / 70% of the rough construction completed. The clubhouse for the golf course in phase 1 and the marina club are both taking shape. Also the Medina at the front of the comercial centre is well under way and from what i have been told the plan is that you will walk along the seafront towards the marina and then enter the Medina through a Moroccan archway which all sounds really nice. They have also started work on the bars and restaurants that will be alongside the marina, but this has only just begun.
Keep an eye on www.lejardindefleur.com as they will be launching a webcam within the next couple of weeks that will be situated on top of the Fadesa building. The great thing is that you will be able to control the camera and be able to see not just the progress of JDF but also other parts of the project.
Hope this helps.
Andy
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Ive been offered an off - plan marina berth with a 60 year lease.
Sounds fine but them Im told there is a review every 20 years. WHAT DOES THIS BIT MEAN?
Im told the berth is mine for 60 years and the 20 year bit is nothing of concern as its simply a reveiw of maintenance payments and fees.
Anyone have any knowledge and in particular whether when I come to resell I am entitled to sell the remainder of 60 years, or is it the remainder of 20 years?
I notice estabnlished marinas tend to have berths for sale with 15 or 20 year leases, so Im a bit sceptical I can really obtain one offering a 60 year lease.
Thx in advance
Hi Dog Box,
I got your pm and didnt notice that you had started another topic so i was i bit confussed.
I have just spoken to Fadesa who have told me that the lease is for the 60 years but is split up into 3 x 20 year periods.
What will happen is that you have the lease for the first 20 years and then get 1st refusal for the next 20 years. If you want to sell at any point then you will be selling the remainder of that 20 year period and the person who buys it will then get the option of first refusal on the next 20 year lease. Please however note that Fadesa will have to get 1st refusal on buying any marina birth and they will also fix a value at which you wont be able to sell below.
If you have any questions I would suggest that you contact Fadesa directly on +44 (0)20 7486 6500
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Andy, Ive got my name down for a marina berth (purely as an investment), either 15m or 20m.
The agent Im dealing with tells me there are none left but has put me on a list if any should arrise.
Dont suupose you have one?
Andy, what about rent levels?
We use villas every year and always end up paying somewhere between £1000 - £2000 per week for detatched with pool, NOT ON A BEACH in a non chavvy resort in places such as Menorca. Smae for Sardinia and Greek islands such as Paxos.
When you think these villas will have the added benefit of being within walking distance of the beach and have the 3 golf courses, surely the rents will be reasonably strong?
Hi Dog Box,
I just got a personal message from you today regarding Marina births that we talked about some time ago at the time i posted the following reply.
Both Jardin de Fleur and Oasis are getting their marina births from Fadesa so if you contact them directly you might have a better chance of geting one. It might be that the agent you have been dealing with is only contacting JDF who only have 10m births left.
I dont know if this was an old message that has just come through but drop me a pm if you have any questions.
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Cheers
Ive heard the same. They want big international brands. Ah well, its good to know the developers are taking such pains to establish this as a premier resort.
You are so right, i am also glad that they are not just letting anyone take units there. This is just another factor in making La Saidia an exclusive resort.
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Andy
Im interested to find out about a small commercial unit within the site.
I have spoken to Fadesa direct about the same subject.
Is this your bag?
Hi Dig Box,
The info that i have is as follows. Commercial units are available and they are rental / lease only at about 16 euros per sqm per month. Thats all they would tell me at the moment and have said that they would need to know more as to what kind of store you want to put there and what size you need + they prefer franchises.
Hope this helps
Andy
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Andy
Im interested to find out about a small commercial unit within the site.
I have spoken to Fadesa direct about the same subject.
Is this your bag?
Hi Dog Box
I have just been given a direct contact number by Property Logic for the lady to talk to with Fadesa in Morocco.
I will give her a call tomorrow and let you know how i get on.
Andy
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Andy
Im interested to find out about a small commercial unit within the site.
I have spoken to Fadesa direct about the same subject.
Is this your bag?
I will make a couple of calls and get back to you ASAP.
Watch this space!!!!!
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Thanks Andy for your analysis.
Assuming the Port Lixus villas are around 400sqm, €400k is reasonable. I am looking for an appt and approx £80k is what I would expect to pay. Look forward to hearing some more details as and when.
Cheers.
Hi fabs and everyone else,
Not much being said at the moment and I know the Port - Lixus info probably wasnt what everyone wanted to hear but if any of you are interested in the Emaar projects then hopefully we might have some news very soon.
All i can give you at the moment is a website where you can see an overview of there 5 projects so check out http://www.emaar.com/morocco/
Some of you may have already seen it but if not its worth a look.
Hope this helps
I am also in La Saidia this friday so will i will take some new pictures for you all.
Andy
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Thanks Andy for your analysis.
Assuming the Port Lixus villas are around 400sqm, €400k is reasonable. I am looking for an appt and approx £80k is what I would expect to pay. Look forward to hearing some more details as and when.
Cheers.
Same bad news for everyone on Port - Lixus. I have just been told that there will be no apartments on the first phase only villas. This info has come direct from Thomas and Piron via our Business Development Manager.
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Wow......I was expecting to pay a premium but wasn't expecting €400k - assuming they are of a similar spec to the Saidia villas. Hopefully they will have reasonably priced appartments.
Once again, please let me know as soon as you hear anything.
Thanks.
Hi Fabs,
As an example the JDF villas are starting at 260,000€ for a villa that is 145sqm on a plot of about 350 - 450sqm and they are about to release 24 Villas at 350 - 400sqm on plots of 1000sqm + for 750,000€
Even if you took the plot away on both and just looked at the price per sqm on living area alone then Saidia is about an average of 1834.05€ per sqm compared to 1000€ per sqm in Port - Lixus.
Hopefully this same kind of figure would be applicable to the apartments. I have just bashed out some figures on my calculator and came up with about £78,000 for an apartment of the same sqm as Jardin de Fleur.
Please bare in mind this is only guess work and dont take this figure to be true.
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Hi Andy
Thank you for the pictures!
Apologies - I didn't realise that Jardin de Fleur allow private rentals. I had assumed that you could only have rental income through the guaranteed rental scheme.
I look forward to hearing more on the Port Lixus and Emaar projects. Once there is more onfo available, I'll get in touch with you for some details.
Thanks again!
Hi Fabs,
Bit of news on Port - Lixus for everyone but it certainly wasnt what i was expecting.
Please see notes from an email just sent to me.
1st phase delayed...will be released in June...villas starting at at least 400.000 Euros...350m2 built on plot with pool of 1.200m2.
Is this what we were expecting?????
Andy
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Andy - It is my understanding that much of the land round Saidia development is owned by the government and that certainly to the westermost side the area is protected and designated as a bird sanctuary. Is this your understanding? I realise that land use can change, just looking to check that information I've been given is correct.
Hi Soup Dragon,
From the way that it has been explained to me the information that you have been given is the same as i have been told. I am sure you would also have heard that they cannot build anything either in or around the Saidia project for 15 years after the project is completed. I do agree with you that the use of land can change.......just look at the Costa del Sol.
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Hi Andy
Thank you for your reply.
I'm not sure that I was clear enough in my previous post - if the management company are going to be offering 3% yield (I know that this is not set in stone), how does this translate to the £1000 to £2000 per week that Dog box mentions?
Just to fill you in, I am from the UK and am looking to purchase a coastal property in Morocco that I can use 2/3 weekends per year and rent out as much as possible for the rest of the year. I am considering both the Saidia project and the Port Lixus project as well as any possible Emaar resort.
You are talking about Fadesa who are offering a Gaurenteed rental scheme which is based on a % of the purchase price.
As an example lets just say the property is worth 150,000€ and you were getting a rental return of 3% for the first year you would expect to get back before any deductions about 4500€. This money would then be used to help pay off your mortgage. The reason that it is low is because that it Gaurenteed. You may find that your property only has clients in it 10 weeks of the year and that the company charged £1000 a week but you would still get your 3% of the purchase price.
It is what i would regard as low risk. Sometimes the people that are buying are not interested in making a profit from the rental as long as it is covering the costs of the property, they are more concerned with the capital growth as this is the larger sum of money that interests them.
What i think Dog Box is refering to is private rentals or using the services of a rental management company that Jardin de Fleur then get in place. This would not be gaurenteed but has the potential to offer higher returns. He would still have to pay out a fee to the management company. But lets just say he only manages to rent it out for 2 weeks of the year at £1500 per week he would still have to payout a % to the rental management company and walk away with less than Fadesa are offering but that is a higher risk. If things go really well for him he might get 20 weeks and walk away with a nice tidy little profit and still be able to use it on the weeks that it wasnt rented out. This option is more flexible, has higher returns but also comes with a higher risk.
Normally with Gaurenteed Rental schemes it can be that you have limited use on your property or sometimes have to pay to use it....check out the contract with a lawyer before signing to anything.
Also with regards to Port - Lixus and Eemar as everyone seems to be talking about i have got one of our guys in contact with both of these companies and will post any news that i get ASAP. Our guy was stood on the plot of Port - Lixus last week and said it is stunning, at the moment they are in the process of building the show homes and apart from that there are a couple of porta cabins( pictures attached )
Sorry they are not the best
Hope this is of some help
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Hi Andy/Dog box
If the owner of the property is likely to receive around a 3% yield (I understand that this is not yet confirmed), this equates to approx £450 (on a £180k investment) - assuming constant rent for a full year. So why does it matter what the rent charged is - the management company is likely to pocket the difference?
Apologies for all the questions - I am looking for an investment in Morocco and want to consider all options open to me.
Thanks.
Hi fabs,
If you want to get all of the info currently available without getting involved with agents and to compare all developers in La Saidia please check out the following websites.
www.lejardindefleur.com - Property Logic
www.oasismorocco.com - Superior
www.fadesa.co.uk - Fadesa
www.grupotasa.com - Tasa
Also dont worry about asking lots of questions as you must make sure that you feel comfortable with any purchase you make. It is very easy for agents to sit there and say that it is a great investment and it does have great rental potential, but its not their money.
I would advise that you first of all try and pin it down to a certain development and then go over and have a look. I presume that you are in the UK???
As an example with jardin de fleur you could put down a fully refundable 3000€ / £2000 reservation to take a property of the market ( i would suggest doing this before the 15th of June to secure the current price) You then have 30 days in which to come over and have a look and decide if you want to go to private purchase contract.
You as the client would then cover the cost of flights from the UK to Malaga and would also need to pay for a couple of nights accom which lets face it wouldnt be a lot (normally Thursday - Saturday) If you chose to do this with www.propertyshowrooms.com we would then cover the cost of your flight by private jet with property logic from Malaga to Oujda. We would then tour you around La Saidia, go for some lunch and then fly back to Malaga the same day.
The worst case scenario is that you reserve a property, come over to have a look and then say " andy its not for me" we would then get you your reservation deposit back........but the main thing is you would have seen it.
With superior it is slightly different as they say that the client pays for the flights from the UK to Malaga and also from Malaga to Melia with Superior picking up the bill for the accom. If you didnt want to go ahead then superior would charge a £100 admin fee from your reservation deposit.......but again at least you would have seen it.
Both companies take you into Fadesa´s office to see the 2 and 3 bed apartments so either way you will have a better idea of what is all about.
I always say to people that you can to as much research as you want at exhibitions or on the internet but there is nothing better than standing on the development yourself. For the amount of money that you are looking to invest and in the grander scheme of things to pay for a couple of flights and some accomodation and have the experience of seeing it is worth every penny.
Morocco - My Next Target
in Overseas property investment
Posted
Hi All,
Completly off the subject but i havent been about for a while and i thougt that you all might like to know that a major investment has been made on Jardin de Fleur by England footballers. For more info please click on the following link.
http://www.propertyshowrooms.com/Forum/Topic73-12-1.aspx
Regards,
Andy Welland