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Muswell Hillbilly

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Posts posted by Muswell Hillbilly

  1. Here’s a flat which has been horrendously butchered internally. How on earth do people get planning permission for this kind of thing?

    40 (2F1) Gillespie Crescent

    However, the fact that it supposedly has five ‘bedrooms’ hasn’t washed with the surveyor on this occasion, as the asking price is OO £265,000, or £2,230 per square metre, which is quite reasonable for the area.

    It looks like the Gillespie Crescent flat sold for £277K. Let’s hope the new owner has knocked down some plasterboard walls and returned it to its proper layout, although they’ve probably just shoved six students into it instead and are raking in £1,500 per month rent. (The link no longer works, but if I remember rightly, this was one of those flats in which internal walls had been put in to divide large double bedrooms up into two long, narrow ones.)

    That flat previously sold for £345K in Oct 2007 – ouch!

  2. I thought I’d just resurrect this ancient thread in this moribund forum, with the news that this crappy newbuild flat costs £850,000. I can’t be bothered to work out how many square metres it is, but it looks like under 100, thus probably putting this price close to a pounds-per-square-metre record for Edinburgh.

    Incidentally, it looks like the converted garage at 1a Cumin Place sold for £387,000 in the end. The funny money in Edinburgh certainly has not dried up.

    Further investigation reveals that the house at 1a Cumin Place was formerly the garage on the left hand side of this Streetview image:


    Googling for "1 Cumin Place" conversion will take you to the planning documents.

    The main house at 1 Cumin Place appears to have sold for £380,000 in October 2010 (some time after planning permission was granted for the conversion, in 2007, so maybe the lucky buyer didn't get the garage as well), so paying £390,000 for the garage doesn't seem like too much of a bargain. Looks like the garage first went on the market at £485,000 in March this year (http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=174246&st=30). Just amazing.

    If anyone fancies a test-drive, you can rent it for only £150 a night, although you have to stay for at least 3 nights.


  3. I lived in Muswell Hill from 1996 to 2006, and witnessed significant changes. When I arrived there, it was a comfortable, friendly district, with well-established residents and many families. It was already pretty expensive, although the flat which I rented there for my first two years was owned by somebody who had bought it for 80K in 1988 and had then been in negative equity when its value fell to 60K.

    The prices of one-bedroom flats rose from about 65K to 80K during my two years renting there, and I was lucky enough to buy one for 83K in late ’98. With the property bubble, however, the prices of flats like that rose from 80K up to 220–250K by 2006. I remember the local news headlines when the prices of family houses passed the million-pound mark (now they’re more like two million for the larger ones). Consequently the demographic changed: the bankers, television types and yummy mummies moved in, and ‘ordinary’ professional people were pushed out. The hundred-year-old hardware store closed, to be replaced by a Planet Organic; the old art shop closed and became an upmarket chain boutique; oh, and Foxtons moved in, of course. Sunday mornings became marked by aggressive thirty-something women dominating the pavements with their designer pushchairs. I STR’d in 2006, and the flat which I sold for 223K changed hands again recently for 290K. This is for a one-bedroom conversion, with no garden access, with a total internal area of 50 m² when you include the internal landing and stairs.

    Muswell Hill was built in Edwardian times as a garden suburb for the well-heeled. It underwent a period of decline maybe from after WW2, when big houses were divided into bedsits and it was possible for ordinary serial killers to move in, but since the 1980s boom it has once again been a desirable, expensive area, helped by the high quality of its almost entirely Edwardian architecture. Naturally it attracts Hampstead refuseniks, but is none the worse for it. Apart from being off the Tube map, which some say is a virtue, it has perfectly good transport links.

    I may miss the Muswell Hill of the late 1990s, when it was still a fairly relaxed, friendly, middle-class neighbourhood, but I certainly do not miss the Muswell Hill of 2006.

    Which shops have closed, by the way? I can’t tell from the photo in the original post.

  4. Here’s a flat which has been horrendously butchered internally. How on earth do people get planning permission for this kind of thing?

    40 (2F1) Gillespie Crescent

    However, the fact that it supposedly has five ‘bedrooms’ hasn’t washed with the surveyor on this occasion, as the asking price is OO £265,000, or £2,230 per square metre, which is quite reasonable for the area.

    Meanwhile the abomination on Cumin Place has now had its price cut to £390,000, despite a Home Report valuation of half a million. If you look using Property Bee, it’s good to see the seller having a laugh on 16 July, when they increased the price from £400K to £425K before dropping it to £390K a month later.

  5. Yeah, sure.

    I admit I know precious little about Wales, but TMT’s first post on this thread reminds me of the South Welsh character played by Paul Whitehouse in Bellamy’s People on TV a couple of years ago, who used to go on half-jokingly about the English being bastards, but nowhere near as bad as the North Welsh, who were real bastards.

    As for the link to the £68,000 ‘wee hoose’ in Falkirk, I didn’t realise Falkirk was as cheap as that! It’s a bit grim and grey, but it’s only 25 minutes by train from both Edinburgh and Glasgow, and all the trains stop there. I’m an English person living in Scotland, incidentally, and I can’t say I’ve really encountered any anti-English feeling, but then I live in South Edinburgh, where most people seem to have Home Counties accents anyhow.

  6. As the advert doesn’t show the full address, I’ve not been able to work out how much the current owner paid for this flat. I assume it is Glasgow Harbour Terrace, G11 6??. (It seems that the second part of the postcode is different for each block.) There have already been some beefy price drops on this road, e.g. Flat 6/2, 341 Glasgow Harbour Terrace (216K in Aug 2005, down to 160K in Oct 2008), or Flat 1/2 (205K in Jul 2006, down to 115K in Apr 2009).

    If anyone can find out how much the seller paid, please post your results here!

  7. It’s about time RBS brought out some new banknotes. The other two issuing banks in Scotland, HBOS and Clydesdale, both have nice, new, modern-looking notes.

    Bank of Scotland banknotes

    Clydesdale Bank banknotes (the lower ones, World Heritage Series, are the new ones)

    Meanwhile the RBS notes that have been circulating for the last few years now look tired and old in comparison:

    Royal Bank of Scotland banknotes

    But that new one, with a wrinkly old Queen on it? No thanks! Still, it could be worse – they could have put Fred the Shred on it …

  8. I know we have had the whole flat Vs house debate before. And personally I can see both sides in terms of preference. However in value for money ? Flats just seem horrendous value IMO. Your neighbours are 20cms away rather than 20 metres away. You have land. Yes this takes upkeep but at least you can do things with it.

    This below is a house in an equally desirable - but very different - area of Edinburgh to the crazy priced Marchmont one above. However it has 220 square metres. Works out at more like £2300 per square metre than £2800.



    I know people prefer different areas and different types of housing for various reasons. Up to them. However to spend three quarters of a million pounds on a place to live - where you can't even decide to have a smash on a drum kit if you one day feel like it ? I just find it a bit mental.

    Houses are definitely better value in general than flats in this city. That could all change of course.

    Areas close to the centre in European cities (and Edinburgh is a very European city) are naturally more expensive per square metre than areas on the periphery, so it’s ludicrous to compare Marchmont and Cammo.

    A more appropriate comparison would be between Marchmont and Greenbank. A typical house there, like 122 Greenbank Crescent, costs in the order of £3,500 per square metre – a lot more than the Marchmont flat!

    If you prefer to live in Cammo than in Marchmont or Greenbank, then consider yourself lucky, because it’s a much cheaper area. Unfortunately most people would prefer the latter two areas, hence the higher prices – simple suppy and demand, innit!

  9. Also the idiocy of the British home-buying public, in valuing homes by the number of ‘bedrooms’ that they have, plays a large part. If, like the rest of the world, we could start valuing homes by their floor area – even better, actually advertise and price new homes per square metre (or foot if you want to be old-fashioned) – then the incentive on housebuilders to cram as many tiny rooms in as possible would be largely eliminated.

  10. I have noticed exactly the same effect. There are a lot of solid family homes that seem like reasonable value. However there are a lot of overpriced flats particularly in the Marchmont area. For example, I think this is a nice flat but a tad ambitious price,


    Good luck if they sell it for that. It proves the old axiom - sellers rarely know the market value of their property but buyers do.

    They bought it for a bubbletastic £641,925 in 2007, so in that respect ‘good luck’ indeed. However, at £2,792 per square metre, it’s actually very much around the average asking price for the area. There are two-bedroom flats in nearby roads, around 90 m² in size, with asking prices in the order of £265,000 (£2,944/m²). So don’t think ‘it’s just a flat’, and look beyond the – admittedly eye-watering – asking price. Look instead at the surface area, which is vast. Also note that these are all genuine rooms, with proper windows and ceiling height, none of your loft-conversion rubbish.

  11. Here’s an example of how counting ‘bedrooms’ rather than square metres/feet allows people to be hoodwinked:

    132/4 Whitehouse Loan, Bruntsfield – offers around £230,000

    It’s a two-bedroom conversion at the top of a very grand Victorian house in a great location. Look at the floor plan, though, and you’ll see it’s only 55.7 m², making the price £4,129 per square metre! Absolutely appalling value for money for the area.

  12. Manchester BS savers must be in for a windfall any day now.

    No, Manchester Building Society like to shaft their savers like no other. I had a big chunk of my STR fund in a notice account with them, which had been a market leader at the beginning. I didn’t know that they had been stealthily cutting the interest rate in 0.24% decrements – just below their threshold for informing customers – so the final interest payment was £300 less than I had expected. Because all these little cuts had been within their small-print rules, the Ombudsman found in their favour. The other building societies and banks in which my STR fund was stored at least had the decency to inform me of interest-rate cuts, so that I could make an informed decision to move my money around.

    Best not to be a borrower or a saver, in my opinion, but definitely not be either with the Manchester Building Society …

  13. Ha ha, yes that Cumin Place is having a laugh.

    However for the Scotland Street flat - Why buy that when I can get this nice flat on Northumberland Street for OO 450K and it is about 180 square meters?


    I don’t think the Northumberland Street flat is 180 m² in area. Adding up the widths of the three rooms at the bottom of the plan gives 6.63 + 3.07 + 4.50 = 14.2 m. Adding up the lengths of rooms from top to bottom of the plan gives 3.66 + 6.45 = 10.11 m. Multiplying one by the other gives 14.2 x 10.11 = 144 m². Admittedly the bathroom sticks out a wee bit, so let’s say the flat is 150 m² tops. Thus it comes out at about £3000 per square metre, which is not much different from the Scotland Street flat. And some people prefer maindoor flats – they think having a front door directly into your own flat is worth paying a premium – so I can see why the Scotland Street one would have a slightly higher asking price per square metre, even though it’ll be as dingy, dark and damp as anything!

  14. In defence of the Scotland Street flat, you get 192 square metres for £610K, which works out at £3,167 per square metre – not bad for the New Town. It’s not really a dungeon, as that’s how those houses were built, and it has the full ceiling height throughout, although the amount of natural light you get at the front wouldn’t be great.

    The Cumin Place thing, on the other hand, has just 97 square metres for £485K, which works out at £4,969 per square metre. I can’t help but wonder whether the selling agent has actually counted the outdoor decking area in the floor space! It is basically a crappy little single-storey garage into which a ‘developer’ under the influence of too much Beeny has tried to squeeze in something which could be called a home. Note that the ‘rooms’ on the ‘first floor’ only have Velux windows. Furthermore, it’s right up by the busy, noisy Grange Road. In my opinion, this one is far and away the worst-value property I’ve seen in Edinburgh. If it sells for anywhere near the asking price then I shall be convinced the world has gone stark staring bonkers and shall eat Krusty Allsops’s famous hat.

  15. 189 square metres for £565K? That’s very nearly £3000 per square metre – not London prices, but certainly getting on for prime Edinburgh prices. I don’t know Swansea, but I’d have thought that £3000 per square metre was very, very expensive for the area, parrots or no …

  16. Anyone actually managed to get the highly promoted and advertised £15 east coast route to London yet? Ideally one where you didn't get off in London and then have to climb immediately back on the train again. Cheapest I managed to get from Wakefield Westgate to London Kings Cross was about £42 I think, but apparently Newcastle to London is possible from Newcastle to London (probably thousands to get back again though).

    Where are these damn useless regulators?

    I knew I was going from Edinburgh to London on a particular date in May, so I signed up for email alerts at www.eastcoast.co.uk. Pretty much as soon as I received the email to say that tickets were on sale for that date, I went onto the site, and did indeed manage to get a ticket for the headline discount rate of £16.50. So, yes, it can be done, but those seats are very limited in number.

  17. Flippety-flip

    Bought for 215K last autumn, tarted up inside and now on the market for ‘offers over’ 380K. 122 m², so that’s £3,115 per square metre for a maindoor flat in Bruntsfield. Seems rather steep to me.

    It clearly doesn’t seem steep to everyone. It has now gone to sold (subject to blah blah blah), already. Ladies and gents, I think the Edinburgh Spring Bounce has arrived!

  18. Dog ugly on the outside, massive on the inside. £250k - why so 'low'?


    A combination of being in the middle of nowhere and having a Motherwell postcode, perhaps? £250K to us Edinburgh-watchers might seem impossibly cheap for a big house, but if you have a look at other parts of Scotland the prices are in a different league.

    It used to be a hotel – the Mansewood Hotel – so maybe it fell on hard times, had a quick makeover and is being sold on in a hurry.

  19. Some schedules continue to kick around for a while after a property sells. I just wish someone archived them, along with the sold price. Wouldn't it be great to go onto ourproperty.co.uk (etc) and click on the schedule relating to the sale...you could get a visual history of a property. But I guess there are copyright (and privacy?) issues.

    I have a great many schedules archived the last four years, but of course they relate only to my particular search. It’s interesting to revisit them, especially when the same property comes up for sale three or four years later. (If anyone wants to see any schedules from two- and three-bedroom tenement flats in Marchmont, Bruntsfield or Morningside from 2007 onwards, the chances are that I have them!)

    Now that I’ve bought a flat, I really ought to terminate my search and stop collecting schedules, but it’s a difficult habit to break, especially when I’m still trying to convince myself that I’ve done the right thing. So far, I think I have, as there are very few flats coming to the market in my area – as I suspected would be the case – and this is forcing the prices up as we head into the spring.

  20. It's been sold, I think, but the selling agent's PDF can still be found with a google of "for sale oswald road", and is at


    Thanks for the link. In that case, 318 m² for £768,000 is £2,415 per square metre – slightly less than the going rate in the area, and with a garage and its own garden too. It’s a huge sum of money, but comparatively – and you really have to do pounds per square metre/foot calculations – it’s not bad value in the current market. I certainly wouldn’t mind living there if I had £768,000, especially now that that tosspot Fred the Shred has moved out from nextdoor. (Apparently he now lives in Colinton, in a large ‘compound’ set back from the road which used to belong to footy manager Graham Souness.)

  21. That's 325 sq metres, which works out at £2154 per sq metre by my reckoning, and that seems fairly....average. To put it in perspective, see the tail end of the 'Worst value properties...' thread.

    FWIW, it's 90% bigger than my two-storey, 4-bed house. And it's a flat.

    Which 325 m² flat is for sale? I can’t see anything matching that description in Oswald Road at the moment. I thought the original post referred to a property which had already been sold, or do you have the schedule for it?

    I’d be surprised if anything in the Grange only cost £2154 per square metre, as that is significantly less than tenement flats in Marchmont, Bruntsfield and Morningside are currently worth.

  22. At least in Northern Ireland the bears are being proved right.

    The UK bears are right too, but there is little proof. We all know that UK house prices are very over valued. I guess the market can stay irrational longer than you can remain sain... or something like that ;)

    I feel sorry for the UK bears. Their crash (return to normal affordability) has been a long time coming.

    Excuse the pedantry, but I think you mean the GB bears, as distinct from the Northern Irish ones. Most people in England, Scotland and Wales don’t know what constitutes Great Britain and what constitutes the United Kingdom, but I’d have thought someone in Northern Ireland would have been more precise!

    Great Britain = England + Wales + Scotland

    United Kingdom = Great Britain + Northern Ireland

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