Tuberider
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Posts posted by Tuberider
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The 100k deposit gaurantee was ignored by the Eurogroup but upheld by the Cypriot parliament in their rejection of the original bailout deal
So remember, it was the Cypriot parliament's rejection of the original deal that upheld protection on deposits under 100k
if it was up to the Eurogroup all accounts would have been haircut
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I dunno man.
Things are just getting worse and worse.
With the original figures we might have just made it. Just. But to find double the original amount is going to be nearly impossible. And the austerity is going to be severe in the extreme.
I know my people. We are stoic up to a point, but once our blood boils that's it. No going back. I'm just waiting for the rage to explode.
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I really don't see why leaving the Euro should mean leaving the EU. But it requires politicians to admit that the single currency has failed.
Not to mention that it takes away power from the central control freaks.
We are small and weak and they might not protect us against Turkey if we make a noise that we want to leave the Euro
You saw what they did to us just for cozying up to the Russians all these years. Smashed our economy to pieces overnight.
in 1974 England and Greece were guarauntor powers. Did they help us ? Did they fark.
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Cyprus Can Save Itself By Fleeing The Euro
Any number of articles appearing just now on the benefits for Cyprus of leaving the Euro. Megan Greene argues sensibly that it requires a negotiated exit . . . but that requires political will.
In another article, she comments how the ECB is compromised in all this:
quote:
given the serious threat that Turkey poses to the tiny island, Cyprus has a major geopolitical motivation for remaining fully engaged with its European partners.
unquote
that is the ONLY reason we stay in the euro. it is not financial, it is political. it is the 72 million heavily armed turks 40 miles north of us who have been massacaring us for centuries, and who are enviously eyeing our newly found gas reserves
financially, of course it makes sense to dump the euro. so we have to pay more for imported goods like fuel. so what ? move the 65 billion euros of deposits in the cyprus banking system over to the central bank and use them as foreign reserves to subsidize fuel imports. replace them with cyprus pounds. depositors are getting a massive haircut anyway, whats the difference? either they are left with 30% of their euros or 100% of their deposits in cyprus pounds
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Actually, I heard it from Russians in Russia and London.
The only Daily Fail I see is IRRO's articles.
I heard from Cypriots in Cyprus and and Englishmen in England that all Brits in Cyprus are sunburned alcoholics who sit in dark pubs all day with their 3 dogs whinging and moaning about how Cyprus isn't England. Yes. Every single one of them.
And I heard from Americans in Missisipi that all blacks down there are crackheads who live in shacks along the river with huge satelite dishes on the roof and drive cadillacs with shiny rims
We could go on and on like this but it wouldn't make any of it true
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I think it's accurate to say that a decent proportion of the non-oligarch Russians living and working in Cyprus are perfectly legitimate in fact. What may have started out as a few really dodgy types hiding their money there evolved into a sizable law-abiding Russian business community of the type you find all over the world.
an accurate statement. or, as legitimate as an illigetimate system will allow
we like them.
they bring business here, jobs, growth. they buy houses and cars. eat in restaurants. they do not create problems.
and their women are very easy on the eyes too.
whats not to like ?
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They knew it would get voted down. There was no way it was going to get a single vote in the Cypriot parliament.
The point of it was to soften the Cypriot people up.
"Look see, it's no-where near as bad as it could have been, think yourself lucky. See, look how lucky you are. Who's a lucky lucky??? Who's a lucky lucky???"
Again, this makes little sense.
Why let Anastassiades bring it back to Cyprus if they knew it was illegal ? They left themselves wide open to criticisms.
Even if they didnt care and they knew it would get voted down, why were the Europeans (and Merkel/ Schauble in particular) thrown into a fit of rage at the disobedience of the Cypriot parliament ?
The answer is: they don't care. The 100k rule means nothing to them and they are willing to break it whenever it suits
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Many Russian depositors may have been dodgy but not all bandits are Russian.
This article in the Cyprus Mail suggests that it was the merger with Marfin Egnatia bank in Greece that did for Laiki
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/central-bank/central-bank-could-not-have-stopped-laiki-merger/20130405
It looks supsicioulsy like it was taking on Greek debt not Russian depositors money that has sunk most of the Cypriot banking system
+1
exposure to greek bonds is what sank the banks here.
they accepted the greek haircut after assurances from the EU that when our time came, they would help us as well.
where was their support ? as we say in greek, 'na mas shesoun'
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The problem with violating the 100k rule is it would have circumvented the EBC deposit guarantee scheme.
Under ECB rules, the first 100k is protected if the bank goes bust. They were looking to circumvent that which would have caused a small-deposits bank run through-out europe.
It would mean one days saying your money is protected, and the next day saying "we've changed our mind".
People with million or billions tend to have people who can move their money in a hurry. People With hundreds don't, and their willingness to take part in the banking system is based on their small amounts being protected.
Agree, so why did the first Eurogroup allow the 100k rule to be violated ?
They only backtracked when the Cypriot parliament votedit down. You should be thanking the Cypriot politicians.
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World of difference in bailing in all depositors in insolvent banks such as Laiki and raisng a 'levy' on all Cypriot bank deposits regardless of the financial health of the underlyng institution. It was the latter arrangement that was originally proposed by the Cypriot President and was essentially just another version of the prudent bailing out the inprudent except rather than being EU wide it was just confined to Cyprus.
I think one thing the financial crisis has revealed is that 'moral hazard' is more than just an 'ethical' issue. It should encourage all depositors to start looking at the balance sheets of financial institutions and if these are subsequently found to false then they should have a pretty hefty incentive to put real pressure on the politicians to stick the fraudsters in jail. So far this has not happened because savers and particularly the wealthy have largely been indemnified by taxpayers from their 'investment' mistakes .Now that it looks like they are going to lose serious money that may be about to change
you are missing the wood for the trees. the consfiscation has impacted everyone and the prudent will go down as well, the whole banking system has a crisis of confidence and no longer functions properly. liquidity has dried up and it is only a matter of time before unemployment skyrockets, businesses go bust and we are all plunged into a depression, prudent and inprudent alike.
like i said, ethical concerns aside, the damage for the cypriot economy and the cypriot citizen as a whole would have been far less with the original levy, done quickly and with minimal disruption. what we have now is far worse.
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Ok, not all russians obviously. But all russians un russia that i have spoken to have told me this. It is common knowledge. Are you seriously telling me that you think that these are bona fide Ruasians who legitimately got their money out of their country to then put it in cyprus to then recycle back into russia? Is this what you believe? That all these Russians in cyprus were nice, legit people?
Who knows if they are legit or not. is it legit to shut down the banking system of a sovereign nation and steal people's money overnight? is printing fiat money and buying whole nations legit ? is everything that goes on in the city of london legit ? is russia itself legit ?
a lot of things are not legit. the system itself is not legit
Again, why single out Cyprus
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And why are the germans and dutch and others courting these people? Surely you know. The answer is the same as why financial insititutions helped many, many people take out liar loans the world over.
Again, this isn't my perception. This is what Russians is Russia have told me. Everyone there knew that Cyprus was a haven for Russian dirty money. It can't be a shock now that it's all gone horribly wrong.
Let me guess, because the whole system is corrupt and a rotten edifice of mammon which needs to be dismantled ?
Agree, but why single out Cyprus ?
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These aren't my perceptions. It's what all Russians in Russia know. Go over there and see for yourself.
An insane statement. How could you possibly speak for 'all Russians in Russia' ? Above is your subjective opinion and that of your family, shaped by media, anecdotes and no direct experience of Cyprus nor its business environment.
Nothing more.
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My Uncle is an ex-pat living in Cyprus, a pensioner with no high-up connections. He was tipped off and got his money out. Well under the e100K but better safe than sorry.
I wonder how many politicians left their money in the banks to support the country (no need to answer that)
Tipped off by The Economist, Wall Street Journal and Finacial Times no doubt, all of whom ran articles prior suggesting an upcoming Cyprus haircut on deposits
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One side of my family is Russian and living in Russia. All Russians in Russia know that any Russian with money in Cyprus (or London, unless they've earned it by working in London) is a bandit.
Surely Cypriots knew they were courting bandits and making their entire economy rely on bandits?
Is this a shock?
Wow that's quite a generalization. 'An entire economy reliant on bandits' !!!
If they are all 'bandits' then why have German and Dutch financial institutions started aggresively advertizing their services in Cyprus to attract these people and their business to the north ? Surely they do not want to attract nor become reliant on bandits ?
The decision by the Eu was political and not financial, and goaded by ex president Christofias who preferred to turn to the Russians for a loan in 2011 rather than approach the EU. It was revenge, a spanking to a little country for being disobedient.
Your perceptions just highlight once again how the media can whip people up into a frenzy.
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Tuberider, I appreciate the input of a Cypriot here. Could you answer a few questions:
1) Who do you principally blame for the economic collapse? Bankers? Politicians? Russians? EU?
2) Should Cyprus have joined the Euro? Should it have been allowed to?
3) Going back a few years, were there any mainstream figures in Cyprus warning about the excessive size of the banking system relative to the rest of the economy?
Cheers, Q
Sorry Q, I missed your post. Things here are rather chaotic as you can imagine.
1) Who do you principally blame for the economic collapse? Bankers? Politicians? Russians? EU?
Bankers and politicians, and the previous administration led by Dimitris Christofias. His hugely unpopular and incompetent government led to the destruction of the country's largest power station, severe water shortages and the financial crisis we see today. The people voted him out, and voted in Anastassiades, who is not much loved here but is an EU yes-man. The general feeling was that once we got rid of that donkey Christofias, the EU would help us out. As I said on another post, prior to this event Cypriots were very pro-EU, and naively believed the EU had our best interests at heart. So we gave Merkel what she wanted: a right-wing government under Anastassiades, whom she personally endorsed. This made the ensuing betrayal all the much more hurtful. Yes we were badly run, and made many mistakes, but for the EU to shatter our economy overnight and destroy livlehoods, businesses and jobs is way disproportionate to the crime. By the way, and contrary to the popular press, Cyprus is not a haven for ultra rich oligarchs but a business center for upper-middle class Russians. Any self-respecting oligarch would not be seen dead here, the very rich in Russia view Cyprus as rather gaudy and full of nouveau rich wannabe's who cannot afford to be in London.
2) Should Cyprus have joined the Euro? Should it have been allowed to?
EU yes, but only for protection from Turkey. Euro definetly NOT. We never should have joined. We met the criteria easily, as we had a healthy economy under Papadopoulos, but many including myself were against it. Was it one of the Rothschilds who once said, 'give me control of a nation's money, and I care not who writes it's laws' ?
3) Going back a few years, were there any mainstream figures in Cyprus warning about the excessive size of the banking system relative to the rest of the economy?
The problems did not really exist a few years ago. Voices were heard throughout 2012 warning of the dangers, but our government was run by village idiots who thought they were infallible.
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The original "tax everyone" proposals were dreamt up by half-witted Cypriot officials, who came up with possibly the worst idea imaginable.
The final bail-in came from overseas experts who have been working on this sort of thing since the crisis and knew what to do in the circumstances. They are still shaking their heads in disbelief that a bunch of amateurs thought that they could make it up as they went along.
Although the original 'tax everyone' proposal violated the sacred 100k depositor rule, in retrospect Cyprus has come to realize that it was a much better idea than the one decided upon now. Ethical concerns aside, of course.
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% on
I suspect that the Cypriot authorities realised that, without the Russian stolen money investors, their economy was (and excuse the technical term) f***ked.
So they tried to see if they could get away with screwing their own people and blaming the EU.
Not that i want to defend our useless politicians, but your post is wrong
The Eurogroup approved the initial 6.9% haircut on deposits under 100k regardless of who tabled it. Anastassiades denies it was him. he claims that the Eurogroup 'did not care' how cyprus raised their 6 billion, so long as they did. He brought it back to Cyprus and it was voted down, which led to the ensuing chaos.
Good to get facts straight
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Ok, so they dont watch TV...they do other things as you say.
Point is, they aint watching their banks....although, you gotta admit, bouzouki factor could be as good a watch as reality TV.
we got drunk on years of prosperity. greed. big houses, nice cars. didnt think anything could touch us. since the invasion in 1974 we have grown and grown and life has got better and better and the middle class richer and richer. every time the economy started to slow down, something stepped in to save us. in the eighties it was the rich arabs fleeing lebanon. in the 90's rich serbs, in the 00's the property bubble, upper-middle class russians (not oligarchs - no self-respecting oligarch would be seen dead here), and finance. everyone expected a slowdown/ recession but the vibe was that we would tighten our belts for a few years and then the gas would kick in, flooding the island with cash once more.
we got a sharp wakeup call now, and it was needed. we were always very pro-europe as we thought they would protect us from the turks. we are quite naive and still believe in outdated concepts like democracy, human rights and social justice (idiots that we are) and we were very happy to join the eu as they spouted all those things, but now we have seen behind the mask. as someone said to me recently, it's like being raped by your father.
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but surely, the point is, PEOPLE didnt have a clue...watching "Bouzouki factor" on the telly and assuming the men in suits would look after them was the sheeple in action.
99% of people have no idea.
not many people anywhere have a clue. and who would have expected such insanity - stealing money from bank accounts so brazenly ? I dont think anybody was really believing such a crazy thing would happen. and we are still in shock that it DID happen.
Bouzouki.. what ? Sigh....ok let's get this sorted out :
I am not aware of anything called bouzouki factor on greek tv. our cultural standards are quite high and we dont watch much trashy tv like many people do in the uk. cypriots prefer to go out walking, sit in cafes chatting, spend their time with their kids, doing hobbies etc in their free time. and despite what people in the north think of us we are not kebab-munching workshy stavros-es who start smashing plates and dancing syrtaki the moment someone strums a bouzouki. greek cypriots are very family oriented people who devote their lives to their kids, they are usually patient and kind, very peaceful and if you go out anywhere in cyprus you will not encounter any violent alcohol-fuelled behaviour, nobody will puke in the street or urinate in front of you like they do in most town centers in the UK at night (only in ayia napa - usually english tourists !), and nobody will grab your wife's **** in a bar or try to start trouble.
people here usually respect each other and it is a very safe place to raise a family (apart from the driving, it is quite terrible).
However, if pushed too far cypriots will explode, violently and without constraint (something inherent to most mediterranean/ middle easter peoples i guess). IMHO it is a good trait as it keeps people respectful of one another and nobody wants to fight as it may mean a shotgun blast through the chest or similar. very rare events here in any case, as people simply do not let things go that far.
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I think this issue is a bit of a non-starter. The MSM (even the BBC) was talking of possible bail-ins in Cyprus in February. You didn't have to be 'on the inside' or 'in the know' to be aware of a risk. You just had to be awake. Some businesses did the sensible thing to protect their business. I expect there is flight of funds from all the PIIGS. It's a no-brainer.
+1
like i said before, there was a lot of talk of the very real possibility of a depositor haircut here in cyprus, especially after the eurogroup refused to rule it out back in february
our own pension fund here at work held an emergency meeting to discuss wether we should move our funds offshore. in the end we decided to wait and see.
im sure a lot of other funds/ companies held similar meetings, and many decided to err on the side of caution and shift funds out of the island
no conspiracy or inside knowledge needed
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good eveneing from cyprus
quiet here, people are still in shock and trying to come to terms with what is going on. the huge economic earthquake may be over, but the tsunami is on the horizon and it is about to drown us in a major depression. people seem to be swinging between grim determination and despair. it really is quite frightening to watch your people going through something like this, i know there are worse things in life but i really would not wish it on anyone.
i saw this today and it sums up the mood here:
a new anti-euro column is forming in political circles around nikos papadopoulos and veteran leftist nikos katsourides. it is gaining support fast and i believe open talk of leaving the euro will soon be crystallized into action on how best to go about it
we live in hope
good luck to all
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The seeds of this calamity like so many earlier ones in Cyprus, were planted in that islands relationship to Greece rather than the EU. If they had not attempted political union with Greece in the 1970s then the Turks would not have invaded and seized the north of the island. If they had not been balls deep in Greek debt their banking system probably would not have collapsed. The Eurogroup and EURO membership may not have done them many favours but there are other historical factors at play here.
or you can go further back, like when cyprus asked for union with greece from their colonial masters, the british, but it was denied and we were given a false independence instead (minus a large area of land taken for british 'sovereign' bases) with the seeds of partition sown into an unworkable constitution.
those who live in glass houses...
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First, it depends upon whose version of events you read. The idea of spanking depositors wholesale did not come from the Government.
In fact, if you read the French FinMins' account of events, he was the only one in Brussels holding out for the 100k min.
If you are stuck with spanking depositors as a fait accompli by the Troika, then apportioning it is a tough one. There is an argument that a one-off 6% levy on the proletariat was a better option than handing them the projected 30% plus unemployment we are looking at now.
Any attempt by the President to mitigate the levy . . . the solidarity fund, nationalising pensions, pledging future gas revenue, was flatly rejected by the Troika.
The clear intention was to break Cyprus' offshore banking model in the most destructive way possible.
+1
On another note, if you are following the Greek language news, discussion programs and papers, there is a lot of talk about leaving the euro. Especially after the Krugman article. Some economists are talking about 'moving' the 60 billion euro in depositis from the banking system to the central bank, and issuing cyprus pounds to depositors. these 60 billion euros will be our foreign reserves and will back the new currency. I am not an economist but many of the arguments make sense to me. what more damage can be done from this point ? we have already been destroyed.
I think Anastasiades will have to bend somehow as the opposition parties (he has a very slim majority, and many inside his own party are not fond of him) are gathering behind euro withdrawl. if he does not coral this sentiment then I think his government will fall and we will see a broad coalition led by DIKO/ Nikos Papadopoulos.
Romania Drops Target Date For Euro Adoption
in House prices and the economy
Posted
You are right that the UK will see a flood of Romanians and Bulgarians soon
Here in Cyprus we saw wages driven down and crime skyrocketing once they flooded in.
They've started to leave now thank God, and you hear many of those who have remained saying that they are planning to move to UK once the restrictions are eliminated.