thehowler

It's not irrational if people saw it as way to change their lives for the better. It's just a very clumsy instrument and hard to predict the outcome, like much of the democratic process. "The working class have spoke", as Mr Rotten proclaimed. And you say we can do something about the root causes - then why didn't we? Which political party could accomplish it - Corbyn la-la-land is simply a return to everything we had in the early 80s, with all attendant woes. The political class will always protect their interests, as you imply, and these interests were largely guaranteed by the status quo. They didn't want Brexit precisely because it rocks their boat. It might take a bit of lunacy like the referendum to prompt and facilitate broad change, even if it strikes you as peripheral. It will certainly have a profound economic impact on the lives of many people here. And what's more, Brexit is now informing and influencing all political developments in the UK, like it or not, and is prompting comments like yours on the need to address inequality.

Head of Goldman Sachs gracing us with his insights on the post-ref position today... “Maybe there’s been a lag but certainly, there hasn’t been a dramatic fall-off,” he said. The City doesn't sound that worried. And if it is to be some kind of CETA, how many plusses will we get - CETA+ or CETA+++?

But it was the only thing on the table. Aye to that. The perception that companies had too much of the upper hand, for too long, made many British workers feel shafted. Cameron et al made a poor job of conveying the benefits for the masses from continued membership. Never fear, kzb, improvements in medical science will have you propped at your keyboard and firing off missives to jonb2 well into your 100s!

Or if they're not further along, then perhaps the EU is planning to run loose discussions on the future deal right through the transition years? It reminds me of that odd Thornberry remark a few weeks back, when she said the October vote would be all blah blah blah and get through easily. So, the EU might just kick the can all the way through the next three years, hoping we change our minds? Thinking about it, how would they do anything else?

Facetious quip aside, this latest series of remarks from Barnier suggests we're much further along on the negotiations than I'd thought...

That democracy thang is so inconvenient.

I get what you're saying, Confusion of VIs, but at some point you'll have to recognize there was an underlying problem with the UK economy, its trading emphasis and future well-being - the majority of its citizens wanted to break links with the EU.

That's great, and can we have that without the four freedoms, ECofJ and annual payments into the budget?

Tusk tonight...“‘If Ireland is to become a new Ireland, she must first become European.’ I recall these words because they could as well be dedicated to all other European nations, especially now, in the times of Brexit, when European entropy is again starting to compete with European gravity.” It's heartbreaking really, that the EU couldn't keep the UK in the union.

Not how I see it, I'd say we were running out of steam and due to be overtaken. How much has Mario printed again - "whatever it takes" and he's still going at €30 billion per month. And there is the fact we were just about to embark on one of the most daring, foolhardy and unpredictable moves in living memory. Fair according to who? Remember all that talk of sterling going to parity with the euro - do you still expect that? Or do you think we'll keep inching up, as I do? That in mind... Is that right? Do you think we'll stay in the single market? I don't. And if we don't, we're out, as Tusk would say.

If the May meeting of the BoE goes for another raise I reckon we'll see a break towards €1.2, business as usual. Pound at and over €1.30 just felt weird and overvalued. Around €1.2 feels about right - and the other thing is I don't have to pay the equivalent of £2.40 for a croissant when I'm on the continent, or £3 for a cappuccino, unlike Oxford. That's if these foreign beverage/pastry interlopers are still available to me after March 19!

But will it be a high-tech AI self-driving donkey cart?

We do seem to be having quite a clout on the world stage at the mo...but for all the wrong reasons!

Yes, I think the expanded-Civil Aviation Auth route is possible, but would take many years to set up. I'm not sure if/how the FAA model could be used as a template. But that's why I mentioned the 8 year referral idea with the ECoJ regards citizens' appeals, a kind of legal tapering. In this case I did mean punished by the vote, rather than the EU. The Brit airlines were all fiercely and very publicly opposed to leaving, IIRC. Apologies for ambiguity. I'm not hugely surprised to hear this!

Strange to think that UK-based cheapo airlines are the ones that took the initiative and pushed for the single EU aviation market to open up, and now Brexit is going to see the same airlines/Brits punished. In many ways, Brexit is a regressive process. What remains to be seen is what changes come after the step back. At least there's a tremor of excitement with Brexit, the shock of the new, rather than the bloated stasis of the Cameron age...

Or it means a bilateral no-strings agreement with the EU, to recognize each other's competence. Or it means continued membership with a fee, like Norway and Iceland, with the CAA moving in to replace ECoJ overlords over time, bit like the EU citizen proposal on ending ECoJ influence. Lots of options but like everything it depends how snarly the EU want to get. I suspect Davies will fudge fishing rights and we'll get aviation in exchange.

Starmer has really wrongfooted himself on his own sophistry here. He insisted on picking up Davies way back on the "exact same benefits" phrase in HoC and built it into his six tests, like a pedantic sixth form debater. He's stuck to it for months, knowing it's undeliverable and thinking he'll be able to score points later - when it can't be done. Gardiner appears to have misunderstood it, caught up in all the tangles of recent debate and fudge agreements, seeing it as an objective rather than just a way to knock the Govt. And as an objective he's called it b******s - but the backlash in the way it's being interpreted by the meeja is against Starmer, not Davies!

Brexit will eat everything.

Feels like an April Fools...

The Gardiner story is heating up...from Guardian main page... Labour MP Barry Gardiner: party's Brexit tests are 'b******s' Has to be out this afternoon, surely?

I see that Labour's Minister for International Trade has been recorded saying the Irish border problem has been exaggerated to suit Ireland's economic needs. He described the GFA - not great timing, as I think it's ten years to the day it was signed - as a shibboleth and he doesn't seem to think we'll need any border infrastructure. I wonder how this ties in with their Customs Union advocacy, I didn't hear Gardiner mention it on the audio but perhaps they don't think the border is a big deal in any outcome? And what will Corbyn do if May goes to parliament with a vote on a military strike on Assad? I thought Easter would be quiet but events seem to be rolling in...

Brexit is far from ideal, but it's the best motor for change on the table. People wanted a shake-up.

Autonomy has a big pull.

Indeed. It's parlous here, parlous there, parlous just about everywhere...

It might be as simple as they were catching up after our run, that's all, but I think you know this. A majority of people feel it will be better for the country. There doesn't need to be a point, it was driven by sentiment not by facts as there are few available facts about future events.