Unexpected

My hope is that brexit could save us from any far left or right with jackboots. Without it, and throw in a few more years of frustration and the voters may well be ready for such a leadership. It's an inevitability if the rich continue to get richer and the poor, poorer (with or without brexit). The important thing is a more equal society but most of us seem to agree with that whether we support brexit or not. Some on here seem to be sure the tories will stay in and so the inequality will continue and worsen but I do not think this is the case. I think Labour will be in soon and the levelling out will start. If brexit goes ahead, those who voted for it should at least be appeased for a while. These are the same people who would vote for a far left or right party if brexit did not take place (and with brexit if the divide continues).

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I reckon there's at least one remainer here who thinks that's not a million miles from the truth.

Well no one could accuse you of not giving it a fair go.

Listening to that right now thanks. "people who all died under mysterious circumstances" Like John Smith, David Kelly and Robin Cook perhaps? Did they die at the hands of the Russians?

https://journal-neo.org/2018/03/09/the-skripal-incident-another-anti-russian-provocation/ Sir Edward Leigh, a member of the Parliamentary Defence Committee, in the British Parliament stated, “the circumstantial evidence against Russia is very strong. Who else would have the motive and the means?” The answer to that of course is that the British government has the motive and the means. What would Russia benefit from harming a has-been like Skripal and causing all this fuss? None. What benefit does Britain have and NATO? The answer again is provided by Sir Richard who went on to state “The only way to preserve peace is through strength,” carefully echoing Trump’s foreign policy. He continued, “and if Russia is behind this, this is a brazen act of war, of humiliating our country and defence is the first duty and spending 2% of the budget on defence is not enough.” There is the motive right there. To justify an increase on defence spending and to hit Russia yet again with propaganda warfare to justify NATO’s continuing aggression against Russia. https://journal-neo.org/2018/03/09/the-skripal-incident-another-anti-russian-provocation/

Excellent post thehowler which I totally agree with.

I do not think that is the case Jon. I have not heard of nor seen any major arguments or bust ups due to Brexit apart from what I've seen on here. I have discussed with some neighbours, work colleagues, friends and family and it has not lead to any of us not talking. Most people are just not taking it as seriously as the remainers on here. My dad probably takes it more serious than most and he and my whole family are remainers but even he says he can see my point of view. Anyway, I do not see the blocks as unmoveable. If a second ref. were to take place my boss at work would change his vote to leave as he's angry about the handling of Brexit, whereas I may change my vote to remain if there were a suitable offer on the table. As for a half brexit, it may or may not be useful. If it involves freedom of movement but not having to pay benefits to migrants and distorting the market forces of employment then that would be good enough for me. Obviously with some decent safeguards in place. As someone else said upthread, the tories are only ahead because labour are so unelectable. IMO the tories are also unelectable as are the libdems so really not a good selection to choose from these days. Only option I see is some new parties to get politics kickstarted again. But no, tories have not pulled a blinder and will be lucky to get in again anytime soon IMO. You're right about not arguing to try and change anyones minds. It just doesn't work and anyone who has changed their minds has done so using their own reasoning. The more abuse people receive in the process of people trying to change their minds, the more they will stick to their guns. That's human nature, and that was seen in project fear. Hope that sunk into tptb.

Don't get me wrong TH. I wouldn't support having a second ref. without something on the table different enough to justify it. Otherwise that would be a smack in the face for democracy. Also, if there were one on the same basis as the first one then I would still vote leave as my mind has not changed one bit. The lib dems had no thoughts on offering any changes as far as I know but just a totally undemocratic attempt to reverse the result. I know many leavers and remainers don't want a second ref. and now many remainers just want the UK to crash and burn. I feel bad for them although I do wonder if that is mainly based on what I see lurking here. As for having a third and then fourth ref. I think unless there were significant changes after a period of consolidation then I doubt it could be justified without a decent amount of time passing. And yes, I guess the LibDems will use re entry as their main selling point. Good luck with that !

Why could a 2nd referendum won by remain not reunite the country? If done in the right way then the vast majority could feel they had gained from the result, only made possible by leave winning the first time round. If a concession was offered by the EU and the UK changed their benefits system so it alone was no longer an attraction to immigrants then the vote would surely be won by remain. Then none of this would be wasted and most people could feel they had at least won a moral victory. A remain win of a ref.2 would be so much sweeter than winning first time round because if that had happened we'd have well and truly landed in the doodoo. Instead the people will have forced a change and future politicians will know they cannot walk all over them as they have apparently previously believed. The days of telling us we'd better do as we're told or our house prices will fall are over (whether that is true or not).

Quite ironic really. A leaver wants a second referendum but a remainer doesn't. So the Tories is the bullseye in your opinion? They are a good target for sure but I see their obliteration as just one of the first parts of the journey. I do not think a ref. 2 will save them either. You should be very happy about the brexit vote then because if the remainers had won the Tories would be going from strength to strength. Now the country needs a new party as so many will now not consider the mainstream parties worth voting for. I think the next GE will have the lowest turnout in living memory. Do you not agree that the tories are finished ? (whether hard or soft brexit) If you agree that they are finished then is brexit not a price worth paying. If most of us get poorer as a result then that will bring on the much needed change.

It's also revealing that you prefer to have a go at leavers even though they (the moderate ones at least) would like to find a solution that would re-unite the country. They have not lost faith in Brexit because Brexit was only ever a tool to punish the establishment for ignoring the will of the people. I don't know why this is so confusing for so many remainers on here. The Brexit vote could have been very different and the majority of politicians have only themselves to blame for the result. If a 2nd ref were ever to materialise the politicians need be a bit more clever this time and try to change the vote with concessions from the EU or the UK government giving the people what they could have in the first place.

My point is exactly as kzb said. Why would anyone set on remaining in the EU not have voted Lib Dem? It wouldn't make any sense to vote anything else if you really wanted the result to be reversed. I would assume that all the remainers on here voted Lib Dem whereas most remainers just didn't want it enough.

That does not explain why all the remain voters did not vote Lib Dem.

Is it worth mentioning lies though jon? When do you remember a period that we were not being constantly lied to? If we weren't leaving I would agree with your last point. Now people may not need to. Change will happen, the question is, to what?

So you think that countries like France who use a similar voting system for their general elections are into manipulation? I would say that is far less of manipulation than your preference which is to try to water down the leave vote. Out of interest, I wonder how good the internet would be in helping the leave voters to corall (as you put it) their votes if there were a second ref with various leave options.

So how many leave options do you want with your second referendum? I guess it wouldn't matter how many if we used a different voting method where one option is knocked out at each round of voting so the final vote had only two options.

I know! Why don't we have a second referendum and have four different types of leaving but only one type of remain? That way we can water down all the leave vote. :)))

The government could have done this decades ago. Indeed you are correct. They could have but they didn't want to. They prefer the neoliberal way of getting as many low wage workers as possible into this country, ensuring that both local low skill wages and immigrant low skill wages are at rock bottom. The ever increasing pool of low skilled workers and those on benefits are perfect for filtering a vast amount of money into the hands of the elites and their friends. Into their personal bank accounts so they care little about the national debt that's being racked up as it's not their problem. I know you are against this jonb2 (or at least you say you are), yet you say it's the lesser of the evils. Indeed German thinking and planning is required but we are too stupid for that? Actually no, we are not too stupid for that. We just need our leaders to be forced to carry out the steps required for this. Bottom line is that they need to want to do it so their neoliberal dream needs to be ended by any means possible. We almost need to hit rock bottom so we can rebuild (as per youtube vid posted above), a bit like a farmer burning the field before the new crop is sown, all crop diseases burned in the fire. As you know, our current cabal of politicians will never do this unless forced so that has to change. The tories will never do it so they will need to be removed once they have served their purpose. You seem to think they cannot be removed after brexit for some reason and I'm very curious to know why you seem to think we are stuck with them. I do agree with you that this could have been done without brexit, with our politicians doing the right thing, but this has not happened and would not happen without it. Brexit will force the rethink of how our economy will run in the future. Britain is perfectly capable of digging itself out of the hole and all it needs is the right politics. The people are ready and willing. Well they may not be willing right now but that will soon change when they get used to a fair days wage for a fair days work. I believe that there is an invisible line in the economy where above that line as we are right now the politicians and elites are on the make for themselves with their snouts buried in the trough, whereas below that line the same elites are crapping themselves and doing whatever possible for the country to get out of the mess it's in (before we come for them) ;). That's where we need to get before your German thinking and planning can take place.

If the EU offer was significant then we could have a second vote on whether to take up such a bespoke deal.

Sounds familiar.

Is that really as relevant as you make out it is? They will be voted out after brexit and the next government will be for the people. Ok I know that's preposterous because which government is ever really for the people, but the government in power after brexit will continue to be whoever the people vote into power. You seem to have it stuck in your head that we will be stuck with a bunch of hard right brexiters. Why?

Nonsense. It was fueled by too much cheap labour coming into the UK and a lack of resources in the UK.

It wont reduce the debt/deficit though will it. And we all know the reason. I am a leaver and I do not blame the EU for this. I'm sure many other leavers don't either.

Totally agree with your last two posts Macca. Shame they'll be ignored by the remainers.