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Posts posted by Venger

  1. 3 hours ago, Beary McBearface said:

    If you can't provide any evidence to support your assertions, why should anyone take you seriously?

    As Venger has already highlighted some of us know you only as the poster who seems to have a habit of quitting on the basis of how rubbish the forum is (being certain to tell us all that on your way out) and then pretty much immediately returning and continuing to snipe at the forum*.

    (As a committed troll hunter I feel honour bound to point out that were that conduct to be taken in isolation then it would fall pretty squarely into the conduct we associate with posters who live under bridges and eat goats. We all have an inner troll and we all need to keep it in check, though that's not an area where you've been excelling.)

    Reading between the lines you posted some personal things on the forum and it hurt your feelings when somebody linked things those things to positions that you profess to hold and sought to explain those positions in terms of the claims you made about your circumstances.

    You're not the only one whose life has been touched by sadness and loss. If you don't want people to understand you in terms of things that you regard as personal don't post them on the internet FFS.

    It's just plain nutty for you to construe that sequence of events as a "betrayal of trust"; it reminds me of a Twitter comment about calling icy pavements treacherous - 'Why treacherous? It's not as if the pavements owe us any loyalty.'

    If Venger hurt your feelings put Venger on ignore. If the forum, in your estimation, is a crap echo chamber then you can stop reading and posting. (Unless Venger is holding your cat hostage and forcing you to read and post against your will?) You can certainly spare us the posts where you have yet another dig at Venger by feigning concern; it makes you look daft and petty.

    * You're having a field day throwing cod psychology at Venger but perhaps you ought to think about just how well your glass house is likely to stand up to any unexpected shower of incoming stones


    Exactly this.  It was clearly an open forum post, and if I did requote whatever his position was, he is calling it 'a betrayal of trust' (?).  Hehe pavement. 

    He can't even recall the post and expects me to dig up his proof !!  He didn't report it to Moderators but is very aggressive with blame toward me, and hurling claims of it having been an example of my abuse - while also encouraging me to quit the forum that he himself can't stop knocking down !!!

    There's a bit of lashing out going on for someone being very thin-skinned imo over a little matter (that I can't recall - and if it happened I certainly expect I had a point to make) - while that same sensitivity disappears when it's about ragging on the forum itself.  Goes hard in then.  How it's so rubbish.

    Another 'life-perspective' I improved upon from my reading of HPC forum - actually I think the first time I watched the video was from you linking to it from HPC. :)


    And from my own notes after first watching that video:


    Lol - “Hurt Feelings” - they are actually joking that you should not wallow in small knockbacks, and instead laugh-it-off / be much tougher and move on !!  Don’t feel any upset!  Rise above.

    Thought Before Action / Planning / Organisation / Advice / Research

    Do not get upset with
    people or situations;
    both are powerless without
    your reaction.


  2. 4 minutes ago, Neverwhere said:


    + 1

    Good to see you about V!

    That seems a very sound and sensible plan of action to me, I hope it's going well :)

    Thanks Neverwhere.  Without your 5 year active involvement HPC forum Neverwhere, I may have sunk into some despair.  

    So very clever on the technical side,  yet also with a superb ability to unravel and cut through so many vested-interest misleading positions, including those of the BTLers.  You really are a Mind.  And you really are objectively fair.   I have learned so much from you to my gain - including so many matters away from house prices; about life and life outlook itself.

    And that's true for many other minds on HPC forum.  It's no secret I'm a big fan of Bland Unsight (another real Mind). 

    However I do have a wisdom file of notes (just for my own use - information I have never requoted on the forum) and have taken something good away from many 500 post+ member of the forum of the past 10 years.  On housing, but many other matters as well.

    It's certainly true I have had clashes with a few solid HPCers along the way, but from my side it was honestly about trying to find where the truth is (and in an ever changing market - and my local market with ever more extreme house prices), and nothing personal. 

    Including with Dissy (Disenfranchised) a few months back - when going hard into an issue, it was also about testing and reviewing my own understanding.  (Although we had a newish member ForeverHPIer in the mix on that one, wanting to be seen as a victim if house prices fell, despite his devotion to one of the leading ForeverHPI economists who 'got the reflation correct' above 'forever-wrong' HPC forum).   I can't be responsible for people's decisions to buy, when I've been a renter for 10 years+ on HPC forum, and so much further priced year after year.  They go on RM or to an EA, they go to viewing, apply for mortgage, surveyor... we can all see asking prices - they put in their offer.  They chose buying over renting, and for millions of people it proved to be the best choice.

    Once with BB as well; simply testing my own understanding, and we got past it, for it was just one specific point - which to be fair, it seems he turned out to be correct about.   Osborne and other political interests, and just how far they would take things. 

    I've clashed with Bland Unsight a few times as well (irrc last time was my confusion that older homeowners may carry the market if lending were to become too expensive), but we discuss it (on forum) and try to get clarity.  Overall I have certainly learned far more from him/her than they have from me, and main thing is we each have hope of a better housing market, against this very tilted market.

    Yet there really are other members here who are hard against seeing any HPC.  There's a few who seek to shame you for even wanting a HPC, on housepricecrash forum, from their own position of being housing wealthy.  'Wishing Misery' they keep casting on me.  They don't come with clean hands imo.   

  3. 25 minutes ago, Nomadd said:

    Venger - Give us an update on the NW forum when you have the time, especially if you are looking to buy.

    From what I can see, it's peak madness and then some at the moment. Not sure I'd be buying anything right now.

    Next few years are looking good for falls, IMHO. But hey, who knows.

    I am not looking to buy Nomadd.  (And GreenDevil) :)  Not when my landlord has 5 houses.   Unless it's in an different area; Preston or something - if can find some value there.  Last time I looked at Preston two young kids bought a house to do up and flip, and they did just that.  (BBC Newsround).  One of them treated themselves to a new Audi.  And it wasn't his first flip.

    Nomadd, I fully enjoyed some of your exchanges with one older HPIer wayback (2008-2010), who was in love with HPI and highly defensive of HPI.  You let rip in same way I sometimes have since towards such positions.   Back then I was more apprehensive of doing so, when you just went for it.   

    Let's not mention his name, but the guy who bounced-around-in-super-luxury cars from birth.   With HPCers really not welcome to buy in his village.  HPCers the riff-raff, and his village only a place for his 'old-money' and 'footballers'.   You ripped into his overall attitude of HPI worship/younger people don't really matter as much as the older homeowners. Only downside is policy really fulfilled more of his HPI dreams-come-true, and many others just like him.   

    And you as an IT heavyweight expert who has really added value to the economy; renter-saver against HPI++++++ extremes in London and the areas of Cheshire/South Manchester well known to you from your time living up there.  It should be the other way around.  You as the homeowner and rewarded for all your productivity by way of a house at fair value to solid incomes.  (Although you can probably buy outright - I understand why you would not choose to do so, with these prices).

    Just want to get more money together, with a view I may need it, if renting forever.  And if we do get any HPC, then will be better positioned to buy a home.

    It was my coming up to 10 years a member on housepricecrash forum, and your 18 January 2018 post (Nomadd) on a HPC forum London thread (and exactly as I see the market here), and from others continued 'sympathy-for-owner' ("blame the system, not the home-owning innocents that I dread suffering for") posts that gave me the push to focus on work for a while - even if that plays to tomandlu's hopes for me to fully clear off.    I'm really back to work and away from being active on HPC for rest of year, but not because of tomandlu or anyone else; although I will look in on forum for all the other good posts/members and try and see how market is going.

    On 18/01/2018 at 9:53 AM, Nomadd said:

    Not sure which part of Cheshire, but North Cheshire/South Manchester properties are currently on the market - and selling recently - for truly eye-watering prices. Take a look in the North West forum and have a chat with Venger to confirm this.

    I was in the area over Christmas and one relative has just sold at a 20% higher price than her purchase price - already high - of just two years ago. There were five offers on the property within 2 weeks of it hitting the market. Another family member's four-bed detached has been valued by EAs at 40% up on it's purchase price of 5 years ago; will let you know how that goes, as it won't hit the market for a couple of months.

    And as for availability - there is zero, zilch, nadda on the market that is decent. I should know, I look all the time. Anything decent seems to sell quite quickly, and for truly vast sums of money. And I'm used to London prices, so I already know what "silly" is! :)

    If there's a HPC going on, it certainly hasn't found the better parts of Cheshire yet, I can assure you. Maybe this will change - I think it has to, as local wages simply can't sustain the insanity - but absolutely no signs of this "London ripple" yet. Sad, but true. :(

    That and a couple I know talking about buying the house next door ("if it ever came to market") and knocking through to make it one large house, when they've already got one spare bedroom in their nice Edwardian semi.

    This market; every time I hope it's topped out and that things can't get much worse, it just gets even more expensive. 



    irrationalactor - 2015

    Point out that some first time buyer has to actually pay the £x, and that (since they stretched themselves to the absolute limit to pay the original non-inflated price) they themselves would have no chance to buy their first-time-buyer house if they were doing so today - well, that's just the way things are.

    And my homeowning friends outside the South-East, most of them either have a flat they let out (or two) in addition to their own home, or are looking to let out their starter flat now they've upgraded to a house. People don't sell property any more. They hang onto it, get in a serf to pay the mortgage, and wait for capital gain.

    It's like there are two kinds of money. The kind you earn, and the kind you buy houses with. And one has no connection to the other.



    People buy because they have different market opinions.  There is bomad money/global money.  

    I can bring on the "I can't understand why anyone would buy right now" posts back from 2008-2012+. 

    Point I clumsily made a few months back was there 'future victim' posts for one HPCer who in 2013 was preparing to buy a house, and he recently sold it for around £150,000 more than he bought it for. (STRd).  

    10 years of 'I will feel sorry for owners' (and "Venger; how can you lack sympathy?") looks so cringey to me, given far more HPI+++ and these house prices of today.  The way the market continued to ramp up and up in price.  

    I guess it's the Psyche's Lone Bugler that one day the HPC will surely come and not wanting to 'feel wrong' despite market proving them very wrong.  I need to see some HPC first, can't give advance sympathy for owners when I can absolutely prove years of sympathy posts vs ever more HPI.   Why would I have sympathy for 2013 buyers now bragging about their plans to buy the house next door?  Even older cleaners in the office tell of their £375,000 houses and how they tell all their family to always buy property.  Can't be blanket sympathy all the time.  And then with all the outright owners in the market, they have an interest in also projecting suffering of a HPC.

    Could be housing as most important asset class divide for another two decades for all I know - although S24 offers a little bit of hope for those of us wanting lower house prices.  Maybe it will just be a landlord shakeout but without much price correction, given swells of money that seem to be out there.   It's all real until it isn't. There isn't much anger out there from Gen Rent, imo.  And more political spin to Gen Rent about not-needing to own, about building more houses, is lapped up. 

    Greg Dyke had some good stuff to say on the Sky News panel last night (tax the HPI gains on sale) although he thought the problem was purely in the South East.  Many of the other journalists/presenters on the panel were fiercely protective of their mad-gainz, and how it's not their fault house prices ballooned, which is 'their right to pass on to their kids' in the future, and how 'Gordon Brown ruined pensions' so it's their right they have HPI++++ of today - oh and of 15% interest rates.

    Thanks Adarmo.  We have our positions.  :)  There is something to your point  (as I remember it) about homeowners don't vote for HPC (and so that politicians have to play to that) , although always hoped that some sense would prevail, with HPI++ and homeownership so out of reach for younger generations, and where some HPC means easier to trade up.  I don't see any everyone wins outcome, and for all the plight about homeowners in a HPC and their suffering, there have been many years of hardships on the renting priced out side.   You're a super smart ACA qualified accountant, so you will likely always be in demand and able to meet your mortgage payments on your house purchase of 6-9 months ago.


  4. 1 hour ago, tomandlu said:

    Well, you're the expert on quotes, but I can point you in the right direction. Someone once asked forum members what their financial circumstances were, and I gave an honest* answer. In another thread, you later dredged that up in a personal attack, which was both a betrayal of trust and rude.

    And I stick by what I've said - you are overly-combative and, intentionally or not, drive away those who might offer alternative insights and views. It's not healthy for this forum and I don't believe it's healthy for you either.

    * actually, I was inadvertently dishonest - half the money I'd inherited was in a forgotten ISA, which I'd mislaid due to coping with my own grief and my mother's breakdown.

    So post it up (quote it).  Did you report to Moderators what you are now claiming was 'aggressive unwarranted abuse'.

    If it was so shocking/abusive post toward you, surely you have a record of it.


    Neverwhere:  If you don't feel confident enough that a post was actually abusive to report it to the Moderators then that more than a little undermines the credibility of any later attempts to make aggressive accusations about it simply because the poster in question has not chosen to agree with your own personal point of view.

    I have already bumped many a post where you have tipped in hard to the entire essence of the forum; where I did push back against you.  Don't like to see the forum pulled down like that, and your view about forum is one-dimensional.  It offers a lot of useful information and discussion, but you simply do not see it. 

    It can't bring about HPC by itself though, vs QE realities.  It can only monitor and ask questions, raise points of discussion, logically debate to try and establish 'What the hell is going on'.

    Or as Bland Unsight once put it:  (when he/she came under similar accusations as you are bandying about for me).


    If I am pushing back, I am pushing back because I am fighting for a place where we can "reasonably question and logically challenge" - I do that by calling bullsh!t when I see it.

    If you go along with ---- assessment that this makes me a self-appointed policeman, so be it.

    My assessment is that ignoring bullsh!t comes too close to condoning it as a valid contribution to reasonable evidence based discourse.

    Labelling me a self-appointed policeman, or assenting to that assessment, as you did, is to make a fairly explicit attack on my credibility as a poster, regardless of the underlying intention.

    Now I am responsible for driving away posters who may have 'alternative views'. 

    Yes I have tipped into weak logic of many BTLers down the years.  And others such as a multi-millionaire inheritance homeowner, who keeps on telling how he bought in 2007 and had to sell in 2009 and 'wouldn't wish HPC on anyone' - and 'shame on those who would want misery';.  (Inherited massively since / house + money).   

    So..... other people should be expected to rent forever and not want lower prices, because other people paid whacky prices?  I have pushed back against that robustly.   Seems to me he really only cares about not seeing value of his high-end inherited home fall in value.



    17/12/2015: Welcome to the echo chamber - I feel your pain. Every now and then I come back here to remind myself why I left.

    11/10/2016: No shit, Sherlock. It's why a lot of us gave up even coming to this site. It used to be an interesting venue for lively debate; it's now an echo chamber where certain members brook no dissent, even from those who agree that the situation is intolerable and unsound, and an HPC is due any moment according to the tea-leaves and the entrails of certain birds. Deviation marks you as a LL or worse. All I can say in mitigation is that there have been obvious attempts at trolling in the past, and that for many on this site, the anger at what has occurred in the economy is genuine and justified, and in some cases has been carried for over a decade.

    It's still a shame, since, imho, the participation of those on both sides of the argument is needed, but is no longer tolerated. It's no longer a debate; it's a crusade and a witch hunt.

    Today: In any event, I've been on this forum long enough to remember a time when the debate was both more interesting and more polite - and the former very much depends on the latter. The decline in both of those measures is, to me, rather sad.

    I fully disagree with all your recent descriptions of the forum.

    You sure have a lot to say about how the forum should be. 

    You have a lot of negativity about the forum. 

    Another 'How To Post' and attempt to shame me into self-censorship.  Only agression I can see is from you toward me.


    What's more I fail to see why robustly combating aggression should be seen as a problem whilst the aggression itself is not? It seems to me that those decrying the supposed policing of the forum, the apparent inability of others to express their opinions, and the notional hounding off of the forum of certain posters are in effect - whether they realise it or not - trying to accomplish all of these things themselves.


  5. 1 hour ago, M21er said:


    Good to hear from you and that you're ok Venger.

    Thank you M21er - many thanks.

    You are one of those earliest 2004 HousePriceCrash forum members, and you have greatly contributed to the forum over all the years.. 

    The auction threads were a joy before policy response with BTLer double-down reflation, and with such measures such as HelpToBuy leading to more housing speculators paying higher prices for houses to take into the rented sector.

    1 hour ago, Venger said:

    I have only read some of page 1, and all of page 6 on this thread.  Only got time to make one post today.

    I am really busy.  Have only opened a few threads on HPC in the past 6 weeks.  Although I love HPC forum, and have deep respect for many of its members.



    Also HPC's origins, as I understand it... housepricecrash that is, was in a group of people setting up a domain/forum because they wanted lower house prices as a good thing.  They weren't ashamed of it. 

    The original founders/members stood against BTLers/housing financialisation and wanted house price crash / lower house prices.  You can see it in the 2004 London Regional News report where Krustie gets frustrated agout it.



    2016:  M21er:   

    Many Congratulations WICAO!A real inspiration to those of us aiming for FIRE. We are in a similar position to you ( Ten years older ) but we were lucky enough to buy a house in 1995.

    You totally get it, and (don't think I am giving anything away here) you get it from the homeowner side, recognising just how difficult housing financialisation (BTL etc) has made things for younger people to ever become homeowners.

    'Lucky enough' to buy a house in 1995. :)    Never seen even slightest hint from you about it being proud-investment, but just the opposite, with housing financialisation being damaging/blocking out opportunity for younger people


    Thanks Count.  You too.  Solid HPCer.

    No plan to buy a house whatsoever, but have to put in renewed energy into improving my overall financial position. 

    Have to hold to a view - as I always have for it's a market and I don't have high-knowledge of $Trillions of Global Money Flows - that there may not be any HPC (so many posts over 10 years of 'sympathy for homeowners' on HPC - 'who do not know what they're doing', but with house prices rocketing in my area.... buyers of 10 years ago, 5 years ago far better than my position), so have to look at building a financial fund toward renting forever against these house prices.

    1 hour ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

    Venger the reason I started this thread is that over the years a few regulars on here had hit health issues etc and it's just good to know if people are okay.  Be thankful that random strangers feel for you and respect you.

    That is good and and thoughtful of you Count; thinking about the well-being of other HPCers. 

    M21er the same view it seems, thinking of other HPCers well-being (thanks). 

    Yes, time/health; we all only have one life, and for many of us it's been a struggle against powerful HPI forces, and mad BTL housing financialisation.

    Dorkins put it best for me:


    It's psychologically healthy to get knocked back a bit by reality from time to time. Governments have created a huge amount of psychological poor health by transferring the costs of poor economic decisions from those who made the decisions onto others. They've encouraged the people who made the poor decisions to think they're invincible and life is super easy because they're so clever and talented, and they've made the ones bearing the costs (mainly younger renting workers) think that life is impossibly hard and there's no way to make progress no matter what they do.


  6. I have only read some of page 1, and all of page 6 on this thread.  Only got time to make one post today.

    I am really busy.  Have only opened a few threads on HPC in the past 6 weeks.  Although I love HPC forum, and have deep respect for many of its members.  

    The last post I made back in late January, and just 48 hours or so before turning 10 years a member on HPC, outlined how I would be putting more focus on earning money in order to buy a house (at these prices).  Work. 

    Reading 10 years of 'the brainwashed owners' and 'the sympathy for owners' ... "for when a HPC comes" - hasn't exactly worked out for me - no matter how hard I pushed back against it. 

    Not against all the policy response, QE/FLS/and rates floored, with house price some 40% and more on 2006-07 prices, and many more years rent paid out, and a BTLer double-down.  And many an owner getting BOMAD, and not in need of any blanket sympathy.  Are they asking for it?   It's a market.  Freewill and choices. 

    "The greatest sympathy" / "brainwashed" seems more to do with projecting one's own view that one will eventually be proved right.... and that those who own houses lack one's own 'superior understanding' - bigging oneself up.  10 years of waiting in my view... with new peak prices hereabouts, and very few houses on the market.  So I have to put more focus into work and earning money, with house prices at these levels.

    4 hours ago, tomandlu said:

    I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense. Despite not disagreeing with Venger on a single fundamental, I've had to put up with aggressive and unwarranted abuse from him/her on several occasions. He/she doesn't just mine past comments for hypocrisy, but for ammunition in personal attacks.

    In any event, I've been on this forum long enough to remember a time when the debate was both more interesting and more polite - and the former very much depends on the latter. The decline in both of those measures is, to me, rather sad.

    Can you please directly quote any of these posts you believe have 'aggressive and unwarranted abuse' directed towards you, by me?

    Quote some 'personal attacks' to me tomandlu.

    This is a post by Neverwhere: (when someone else was bleating about being a victim of someone else's posts):   



    Neverwhere:  If you don't feel confident enough that a post was actually abusive to report it to the Moderators then that more than a little undermines the credibility of any later attempts to make aggressive accusations about it simply because the poster in question has not chosen to agree with your own personal point of view.


    What I recall being frustrated about, tomandlu, and gave my opinion on, was your attitude toward the forum.  Coming back with snipe post after snipe post (about the forum), rather than anything constructive about house price/economy.

    Indeed your post above (quoted) of this morning is fully laced with the same how HPC forum is no longer as interesting as it once was, and how great it was 'back in your day'.   That is what I pushed back against then, and what I push back against now.

    Things change.  The market has certainly changed - gone harder against me over 10 years.  I was around when you joined for forum, and of course, some (not all) had excitement that we would finally get some better value movement for house prices (in our areas of interest).  

    There are many members who have stuck with forum (and new members) and it changes with time.  Many members who have put in their views about events, market - and put time and effort into it.  A few saw the BTLer double-down as a trap, and along came Section 24. It is still very interesting (the forum - although not all of it, for many members here who don't want any HPC/BTLers etc) but it has changed with the wider situation.

    2015 tomadlu returns (2008 member) - with a really helpful warm-to-HPC-forum post.

    On 17/12/2015 at 1:17 PM, tomandlu said:

    Welcome to the echo chamber - I feel your pain. Every now and then I come back here to remind myself why I left.

    On 17/12/2015 at 1:51 PM, TheCountOfNowhere said:

    I'm glad someone has come back though to tell us that they're glad they left.

    how totally moronic.

    bye bye.

    2016 tomandlu returns...

    On 11/10/2016 at 10:18 AM, tomandlu said:

    No shit, Sherlock. It's why a lot of us gave up even coming to this site. It used to be an interesting venue for lively debate; it's now an echo chamber where certain members brook no dissent, even from those who agree that the situation is intolerable and unsound, and an HPC is due any moment according to the tea-leaves and the entrails of certain birds. Deviation marks you as a LL or worse. All I can say in mitigation is that there have been obvious attempts at trolling in the past, and that for many on this site, the anger at what has occurred in the economy is genuine and justified, and in some cases has been carried for over a decade.

    It's still a shame, since, imho, the participation of those on both sides of the argument is needed, but is no longer tolerated. It's no longer a debate; it's a crusade and a witch hunt.

    Maybe you don't find it interesting because you don't read many of the very objective good technical posts, and you don't fully understand S24 and other measures - or you don't get any lift from seeing some of the BTLers finally being pushed back and their hilarious entitled posts that some HPCers find a lot of fun in.  

    Then there is more of your narky posts about the forum itself, trying to belittle it.

    If you have an argument/opinion to make, then make it.  Don't seek shelter in claims that other people's view are 'abuse' and that the forum is not a debate/tea-leaves/not as polite/good as it once was.... so much of it from you.

    On 11/10/2016 at 6:29 PM, Neverwhere said:

    I'm afraid these kinds of comments always read to me as a call to silence disagreement and debate, in the name of saving them.

    That posters disagree with the positions of others as posted is part and parcel of a lively debate. (I might add that if a position is nuanced and qualified it's more likely to be read that way if that is expressed in the same post, rather than over multiple posts, if the non-compulsory desire is to avoid misunderstandings.) 

    Such disagreements noticeably occur precisely because the forum is not an echo chamber. Equally, open dissent between posters is clearly not evidence that dissent will not be tolerated. (Nor is there any way for an individual poster to enforce a rule of no dissent on any other in any case.)

    There is no reason why any poster has to read or respond to any other. If anyone finds another poster's comments - for them - detract from the forum rather than add to it they can simply stop reading them. If they would prefer an argument or position were stated in different terms then they are always free to simply state it in those terms themselves. 

    Belittling other posters by equating their positions with witchcraft (tea-leaves and entrails) whilst implying that their posts are unwelcome strikes me as the argument of someone - whether wittingly or otherwise - engaged in a witch hunt, rather than railing against one.

    *This thread* was BTL Scum Retreating thread.   Great thread to choose to snipe at HPC forum.  One of the upside threads where we finally have evidence of BTLers (and BTLers with claims on many houses) in more of a panic, because of a policy response... that some on HPC knew would eventually occur.  (Blandy/many others).

    On 13/10/2016 at 5:47 PM, Venger said:

    Then we had tomandlu choose this thread to (again) 'come back'  and slate hpcers and give us his 'why he left ' speech... how the forum used to be when he was strutting it, and disparaging with witch-hunt and tea-leaves.  

    Sometimes it needs a pushback, especially from those of us who value our membership here, and have worried and worked to keep it..... to someone who keeps coming back to knock the forum, which constantly evolves anyway.

    If tomandlu 'both sides' means why we don't have much time for dreamer HPIers, and some of the BTLers.... it's because many posters here have positions are diametrically opposed in theory and in hard real world reality with the BTLers... and the site is housepricecrash.... one place more posters can discuss/hope for a house price crash / better market value for homeownership.  Not a BTL forum.  We can push back a bit on here to all the happy BTLer posts/threads on so many other forums. Only place on the web to do so, for me.   

    We've had BTLers tip up explaining why 'they need' 10 properties and woe-about-me stories about Section24... me me me, and more about me - with posts where tenants and perhaps their dreams of homeownership don't come into it all.  Re Tomandlu and 'see both sides'... that works both ways.  What's to be gained from spending more time, trying to soothe such BTLers, to work more to 'understanding' 1 of the overlevaraged BTLers among so many, feeling sorry for himself, when they have no compassion of view for renters?  I'm not worried about Tomandlu's 'both sides' about that (for we do know the market for multiple sides). Not here to soothe overleveraged BTLer chancers, whilst others BTLers and throw up Human Shields against Section 24.  

    Also HPC's origins, as I understand it... housepricecrash that is, was in a group of people setting up a domain/forum because they wanted lower house prices as a good thing.  They weren't ashamed of it. 

    The original founders/members stood against BTLers/housing financialisation and wanted house price crash / lower house prices.  You can see it in the 2004 London Regional News report where Krustie gets frustrated agout it.

    Today we have economists on Twitter claiming we can't possibly allow any 'managed' HPC, because "it's so important that older people feel wealthy with £600,000 valued homes, and they spend and power the economy'" - instead of money in productive enterprises.  Champions more of it being in older people's homes, with Gen Rent just having to lump it.

  7. Senior professionals and families... the boomer solution to being to move into spare bedrooms of elderly boomers who want company, in £1million+ homes they'd have you believe are only really worth 1p. :rolleyes:


    On 03/04/2016 at 11:13 AM, Neverwhere said:

    A culture which does not value its young and presumes that they are somehow less than human - that they lack basic human desires for home, security, family - and should bear the majority of the costs of society with few of the benefits is deeply unhealthy, and ultimately self-destructive.


    On 23/07/2014 at 9:38 PM, silver surfer said:

    I bought my first house in the very early 1980's. It was three bedroomed terraced house in a decent part of Sheffield, it cost about £10,500 and my pay was about £5,750.

    After a couple of years my job took me to London, in price terms I virtually swapped my Sheffield house for a one bedroom flat with an SW1 post code, Sloane Square was less than a five minute walk away and the nearest "off licence" was Berry Brothers & Rudd.

    A couple of years after that I paid about £22,000 for a two bedroom flat in Fulham, I think at the time my wages had topped £10,000. Property costs can't have been too much of a burden because soon after I bought a Porsche.

    Incidentally, I had no student debts and a rock solid final salary pension that subsequently allowed me to retire at 55.

    Absolutely none of this is available to my children. They're fortunate in that I can afford to match for them the benefits that I was lucky enough to enjoy, but anyone from my generation who thinks their own hard work and industry were the keys to their good fortune is just taking nonsense. We were the most privileged generation that has ever lived.

    I am done with it though.  What's point of pushing back?  What's the point of capitalism when it's been totally undermined on housing side, with BTLers claiming millions of homes and HPIers celebrating their mad-gainz to extremes + HPCers who are lost in vanity with a view that boomers/BTLers are unable to see past their own experience (and thus totally nice and innocent), when looking at the market.

    Also the boomers themselves enjoy all the advantages of today's tech (including holidays abroad, iphones, lower food prices.... but they have the mad-gainz for the most part too in homeownership at extreme price levels (their wealth) vs Gen Rent.  It's not just a win for young (tech).

    Going to tilt my emphasis to serving my boomer masters, and the Vested Interests which have gorged millions in earnings/bonuses during the QE years... get more of a share of that £, and then a house.  Got to be better than eternal "the innocence of boomers/BTLers" ("who don't know what they're doing - begin the bailout"), lost in vanity positioning.

  8. On 22/01/2018 at 6:48 PM, winkie said:

    A house costs money to keep whilst living in it.......most older/boomer people will never spend their house their kids and/or grand kids will..........the only good thing about owning is there is no rent to pay, most pensions are not enough to cover rent anyway......other than that a £200k house or a £1m house still has a cost, four walls and a roof.......what it is worth is what others 'think' it is worth, might just as well be worth 1p......whilst living in it, it makes no difference what it is worth.....;) 

    Yes, house objectively worth £1m in value by the wider market (in current market), and where downsize/sell to cash is possible to release massive wealth, might as well be worth 1p. :rolleyes:

    You should review Buy-To-Leech's position on this.

    On 21/09/2015 at 1:38 PM, BuyToLeech said:

    The idea that older people don't see their homes as investments is a ridiculous self-serving platitude.

    If that were true, the age demographics of landlords wouldn't be what they are, the daily mail wouldn't print the house price of every serial killer and murder victim, and house prices probably wouldn't be an issue.

    Very few people can afford to ignore the value of their home, whatever their age, it's a key factor in everyone's decisions about housing.

    I'll repeat my earlier point, in the hope that reading comprehension wasn't just a passing fad from my youth.

    We live in a market economy, of sorts. The selling point of a market economy is that selfish decisions should lead to an optimal allocation of resources.

    The distribution of housing is not optimal. Why?

    The elderly ought to downsize. Not that they should be forced to, like in a command economy, but that it ought to be the outcome of their selfish decisions, and it isn't. That is a fact that needs explaining.

    I claim that this can be explained by looking at the lack of incentives to move. Retired people don't downsize because:

    1. They don't pay the costs of their decision, other people do.

    2. Homes are investments, and the financial incentives beat the real economic incentives.

    In other words, we don't have a free market for housing. An alternative position is that we do have a free market, but free markets don't work for some reason.

    'Some older people are poor' isn't an alternative argument.

    Nor is individual psychology, the relative mentality of demographic groups (as if such a thing even exists) or how anyone feels about anything.

    On 19/09/2015 at 8:47 AM, BuyToLeech said:

    A lot of bankers did benefit, it's just that plenty of other people also benefitted and benefitted more in many cases.

    There are plenty of people who have made more through the housing bubble than they have ever earned in their lives. For landlords and London homeowners or anyone with an inheritance the amounts are similar to lottery wins - hundreds of thousands or millions - largely untaxed.

    Those people wanted the banks to inflate the bubble, and they wanted the bailout. They may even be the reason there was a bailout, but none ever holds them responsible.

    People love to blame banks for what happened, but millions of people were complicit. Most obviously the banks didn't get any criticism when the damage was actually happening. They only get blamed for stopping it.

    In part because it's all a story of how the financial system failed (and then it was a dance-of-innocence - of new policy measures to extremes to recreate old system which failed inc BTL double down), and embedded an even coarser ludicrous belief and entitlement in property in the boomers.  (h/t  in part to Bland Unsight)

    5 hours ago, winkie said:

    So everybody has to live somewhere......the price of what was purchased yesterday at a set price is the same as a similar next home up bought yesterday......all homes in similar areas have all increased together......hpi is bad for mover uperers...all debt has to be repaid if selling out completely.

    There are lots of spare bedrooms, plenty of room, great facilities out there for people who would like cheaper rent in the homes of lonely older people......all it requires mutual  trust.;)

    Back in the olden-days your parents may have rented out rooms to teachers, and that it was 'all-fun' and didn't do you any harm doing without - but at my level I am not moving my family into a £1m 'what-it-is-worth' (brag brag) boomers spare bedroom (with you suggesting it's actual value might actually only be 1p vs Gen Rent housing financialisation to extremes).

    And some of my family and friends on renting side work so hard at a very high level - very highly qualified, but their pay goes nowhere vs these ludicrous house prices and BTLers with millions of our homes.  

    It's so clear there are many boomers proud of their mad-gainz, and in comment sections in newspapers down the line they dismiss feckless millennials, how they didn't have iphones. porridge, that houses still affordable.  And many a time they congratulate BTLers.... partly because some boomers are BTLers and partly because ever fewer houses on market (and in possession of BTLers) means likely more HPI 'deserved' gainz for them to more extremes.

    Actually though, for the boomers/BTLers/HPI lovers to extremes, what bugs me most is HPCers who are lost in their own vanity that boomers/BTLers can only see life through their own experience.  Trying to push a view that they lack the ability to look at life with a clear eye.  They can, but they care about HPI.  They're not on our side.  They don't need all your excuse-making for them!!  Get back into your rented boxes, and embrace their solution of sofa-surfing in boomers £1million houses (that technically only really worth 1p really), with empty bedrooms.

    TryingToWin; it's not a horse race.  BTLers shouldn't have been allowed to place those societally destructive and greedy bets.  Fact they were also is a point to older homeowners and what they wanted.

    Stuff your spiritual destiny, that the boomers/BTLers/HPIers think the young should be content with.



    stargirl: That's great, really. Well, that's me told. <_< I'll just slave away comforting myself with the fact that I have a spiritual destiny that is beyond the hallmarks of worldly success like houses and children and a comfortable life, that I am not entitled to aspire to  <_< Sounds like we're all regressing -- to the kind of society where the plebs lived under a starry-eyed brand of religious thought-control where they were told, and truly believed, that it was their destiny to know their place and not question their betters, no matter how hard they worked or how deserving they were; and must never question the fact that idle people lived nicer lives than them, no matter how undeserving. How great this country was then! Why they begrudged the unearned wealth of their betters was beyond reasoning! <_<

    Only, where this used to be based on arbitrary hierarchies of birth, now it's determined by whether one seized the Great Moment and stepped on to the star-blessed Property Boat, after the departing of which all others must revalue the normal yardsticks of worldly success, renouncing all worldly aspirations and abjuring all "expectations", in order to support and sustain the Great Property Owners, whose material success we Must Not Question or aspire to.

    Otherwise we risk spiritual death, if we (heretics! burn them!) question the Great Property Orthodoxy, and fail to realise our place in the Great Scheme of Being.
    Why, we should merely be content to serve the property owners, and should be grateful for our lot! 

    Obviously, for me, the road to enlightenment and peace is that I must realise that the "hallmarks of success are mere illusions." I shall ponder this pseudo-Eastern wisdom from my cramped rented flat; and feel superior in spiritual destiny to my "friend" in her large comfortable house. Never fear, my disheartened HPC friends, we shall receive our reward for our privations after death! Let us comfort ourselves with that knowledge even as we subsidise the lifestyles of those with greater material wealth. We are the Elect.

    Is that working better for you.....?





    stargirl: Whereas I work all hours, easily 75-80 per week most weeks. I'm taking a day off today to post on HPC and vent some of my frustration. I'll be taking this as a holiday day <_<

    Why are you so keen to defend people who basically made money for nothing in a speculative boom market, just because they happened to buy a house at the right time?



    stargirl: no-one is more aware than I am about finding happiness in small things. As I freely admit, I traded money and wealth to return to life of the mind (har har -- in reality, the life of petty politics and overgrown baby undergraduates, as other academics will confirm). I never expected to get so completely screwed out of the normal things in life -- a family, a house etc. All these exhortations to find pleasure in little things and be grateful for what I have -- well, bring some more coals to Newcastle, why don't you! I don't see why I shouldn't be pissed off. Bulls, shouldn't you be a little worried that the well-meaning suckers in life -- the teachers, nurses, social workers, young people in general -- are starting to stick two fingers up at society? What on earth is going to happen to all those materialist people when the non-materialist do-gooders like me start giving up and saying, you got it, chaps, I give up, selfishness and greed are the way to go? No more free public sector or low-paid vocational work for you. No more scholars, or nurses, or care home staff, or vicars, or charity workers, or police, or foster parents, or cancer researchers -- they'll all be deciding that on this evidence, they're better off trying to screw other people and the system and hang doing anything worthwhile for society when you can lie to buy a nasty flat and paint it magnolia and hey presto you've earned 100k in a year whereas actually work hard and care about things and you're f**ed.


  9. 18 minutes ago, TryingToWin said:

    Young people in the UK complaining about wealth inequality just have absolutely no idea how good they have it. My father is from Jamaica and let me tell you most of the people in the carribean would swap with a homeless UK resident in about 5 seconds flat.

    When they talk about wealth inequality they arent talking about the Global average because even an unemployed hobo in the UK is above the global average. Its all very specific and selective.

    I am no stranger to people trying extreme misdirection on me, distorting everything to mask/protect the realities of the UK housing market to their own VI view.

    It's nothing to do with that whatsoever   - how someone in Jamaica would swap positions with the lucky UK homeless people living on the streets..... (!)

    Of course I know of hardships/dangers in other countries and relative poverty, but it's the UK and my BTL boomer landlord has 5 properties rented out, each one worth £400K+.  It's housing financialisation and I know he is proud of his position (including his own home worth £1m), vs Gen Rent priced out.  

    Many of my family and friends on the renting side are far better qualified, far more hard-working, than any BTLer I have ever rented a house from; yet we're priced out in a market where boomers (generally) have seen housing wealth go to one extreme to a new extreme of trebling and trebling, BTLers.

    So you're basically trying to create a position that we (renter-savers/young/GenRent) should ignore the imbalances of extreme prices (and wealth on owner and BTL side... BTLers overall have £1Tn+ in equity as I understand it... even if they 'gambled on property' - many won that gamble to extremes) - by telling us that we're lucky to even be alive.

    Like that other guy who wants HPC shut down, and thinks GenRent should be "learning about other cultures", should 'go travelling' - and not be focusing on housing inequalities ("of which there are none - work harder.")

    House prices that have been totally financialised to extremes, (I congratulate those who earn big money in productive ways with services and products to the market - not HPI chasing/BTL) BTL that has seized millions of homes from the market, with some very very pleased with this set-up and how it has worked out for them (mad-gainz / multiple houses) - vs - younger workers, and including well-paid professionals (but those without BOMAD/Inheritance) who are forced to be GenRent with these prices.



    HPIer with house worth fortunes who loves HPI: The BoE QE'd £450 Billion - relax; no one died.


    Meerkat HPCer:  Indeed, but is this a question of death? Or about ensuring market participants bear consequences of their decisions without any artificial fiddling that makes the final reckoning much harder and destroying the standards of living of large swathes of the populace along the whole process. 

    No, you said nothing about your beliefs explicitly indeed, but I can read between the lines.

    That "nobody died" argument is another one from that league where bureaucrats can make arbitrary decisions of whom needs bailing out at the expense of whom and for what underlying purpose...


    Living standards of the young - vs - the 'my million pound house might as well be worth £1" boomers, and boomers who mock young/GenRent as complaining about nothing / not difficult to buy / how hard they had it buying for a pittance....



    Neverwhere:  Wishing for anything other than a HPC, in real terms or nominal, is wishing continued and ongoing hard-times on everyone who is currently completely priced out (remembering that for many young, working people buying somewhere to live on average local wages is simply not possible at the present time - there is no element of choice to it) so that current property owners can benefit from not having to deal with a HPC that wouldn't dramatically affect the vast majority of them anyway.

    Some people seem to be quite happy that large numbers of younger people should have their quality of life thoroughly degraded on an ongoing basis just as long as that means that there is no HPC.

    They hold up the possiblity that a tiny minority of comparatively well-off people might, what? Possibly end up having to rent themselves (the horror) if they've previously chosen to overstretch themselves financially, as if that were some kind of fundamental wrong that would justify forcing a much larger number of existing renters into perpetual insecurity of shelter for the rest of their lives?

    It seems to me that central to the pity the homeowner argument is the notion that only people who own property are worth a [email protected], and all of the current and ongoing negative impacts of excessively high house prices on younger people don't matter enough to even warrant a mention, because people who don't own property aren't worth caring about.

    It's fundamentally morally bankrupt.


    Why we should be lucky to be renters in the UK vs these prices/inequalities/housing financialisation to extremes !!

    Even UK homeless on streets have it great in great system UK housing... "just stop pointing out the housing financialisation that serves so many so very well to extremes."

  10. ibz0gUx.jpg

    And BTL-happy-day-guy.... it's not about gambling from my side (owning / renting).

    My boomer landlord has a house that must be worth £1M+ and has 5 other houses he bought with BTL mortgages from late 90s to early 2000s that have trebled in value or more.

    Mad unfair market where even reasonable professional salary gets you nowhere vs house prices.

    A market where millions of houses have been bought by BTLers, to create rental-demand.  "2+ houses for me, renting for you ~ and please thank me for providing housing."  :rolleyes:

    A market has been flooded with QE ("to stop the suffering"*) and rates floored for years and BTL new double down - everything basically to recreate the previous conditions of early 2000-2007 of HPI+++++ and BTL; with it now being all about when your parents bought/their wealth, to BOMAD your position/inherit, to extremes.  And spiv greedy BTLers galore. 

    *Which coincidentally was also welcomed by HPCers convinced that owners/buyers never know what they are doing - people so lost in their own vanity that "owners are idiots/misled/brainwashed/programmed".  We each have to make a decision on how to procure housing in the market.  I refuse to be complicit in this housing market by not buying at these price levels (even if I could afford which I can't really... not paying £400K+ for a duff semi) in a market so full-tilted with housing financialisation to extremes. 

    Haves and have-even-mores to extremes vs young/Gen Rent.  BTL boomer landlord with 6 houses (worth £millions), life in dressing-gown, and hasn't worked since he was 50ish (easy low-level work before that too I gather).

  11. On 22/01/2018 at 6:48 PM, winkie said:

    A house costs money to keep whilst living in it.......most older/boomer people will never spend their house their kids and/or grand kids will..........the only good thing about owning is there is no rent to pay, most pensions are not enough to cover rent anyway......other than that a £200k house or a £1m house still has a cost, four walls and a roof.......what it is worth is what others 'think' it is worth, might just as well be worth 1p......whilst living in it, it makes no difference what it is worth.....;) 

    Of course it doesn't.  :rolleyes:

    £950,000 mad-gainz, and owner of a house that can be sold for fortunes in the market.

    Meanwhile, boomers want to tell me how good sofa-surfing is... how "doing without" is good for spirit of something of Gen Rent young.

  12. Yes; 'not all boomers are the same' - but so much timidity ("it's divide and rule") at pointing out the difference between boomers housing wealth (generally) and the difficult positions of GenRent young/millenials in comparison.

    And all the so-soft positioning to try and reach a conclusion that it's not boomers fault for their lack-of-understanding between main position of their 'have-and-have-more-to-extremes' and Gen Rent have nots.  It isn't their fault, but the differences in housing positions is extreme.

    They are doing the opposite mostly*.  Many boomers find explanatory mechanisms to explain their mad-gainz housing wealth vs the young.  And many reach the conclusion that it's not harder for young to buy than it was in their day.  That young complaining about nothing.  

    How hard they had it when they bought ; "no holidays / porridge".  It's just how they have chosen to see reality/current positions for themselves.  "Young spend on iphones/ipads/holidays."

    "millenials are settling down later" / "we married younger" 



    Millennials face wait until middle age to own a home
    September 20, 2017

    link (click-expand)

    *The comments section.


    And here on HPC the big push to not generalise and to be worried about hurting boomers feelings?

    ..harking back to 15% mortgages on tiny mortgages.

    Explanatory mechanisms for their positions vs others, and deliberately narrow for holding that line is beneficial to their own identity/own position.   Willfully not fairly reviewing just how difficult it is for younger people to buy a home (today), vs these values/the values of their own homes (which they don't protest against of course).  To explore it would damage their own 'what it is worth' positions and their own egos.  Simpler to just lay into the young for being feckless / complaining about nothing.

    All of that I can point fault to them for (as so many individuals who do it).

    Unempathetic, self-serving, reality-twisting explanations, that go fully with wanting their boomer interests, wealth and ego to be protected.     Even that girl-blogger and the hotel during the other week, witness the comments about feckless millennials in many comment sections of the newspapers, vs their own super glory.

    Reminds me of Red Dwarf; Better Than Life, when Lister and Rimmer break-free from their own barely credible fantasies (although at least both of them work in those fantasies) to go and find Cat.... and find him in Northern Europe... living in a huge castle with a milk-moat, and loads of Valkyries paying attention to his every wish.



    Rimmer: "Didn't you think it strange that you acquired all this?"

    Cat: "No, I just thought I deserved it." 

    Lister: "Deserved it !"

    Cat: "For being so incredibly good-looking."



    On 17/09/2017 at 7:24 PM, Beary McBearface said:

    The boomers had a very different experience with house buying because they were getting started when inflation was high. Inflation made short work of the real value of their mortgage.

    The first peak of the UK baby boom is IIRC 1947 and the second is 1963. Throughout the 1970s RPI was never less than 7.5% and peaked at almost 25% in the mid-1970s. The first peak boomers are about 70 now. Their houses pretty much paid for themselves compared to the experience of people buying today.

    Any boomer who can look a Millennial in the eye without feeling a deep personal shame* embarrassed by their generation's achievements on the housing front is either an ignorant moron or a sociopath (or both).

    * Make have slightly overcooked it on the "fake anger" (h/t wotshat - via PM natch :rolleyes:) hence the "compromised second draft".


    On 17/09/2017 at 7:32 PM, Beary McBearface said:

    Nobody wants house prices to fall more than me, honest guv but because of [INSERT SCIENCY STUFF ABOUT INTEREST RATES] they are never ever going to fall ever ever. And another thing, even if they could somehow fall (even though they actually can't)  [the government/Mark Carney/BBC/Ghost of Rod Hull] will never allow it.

    OK, sorry to interrupt the thread falling house prices falling - what were you guys talking about?


  13. 15 hours ago, deadasadodo said:

    Like I said, giving our background this year for context - our position is lucky and I've always been quite debt adverse/ savings focused. My mind likes to jump to worst case scenarios and project the current situation into the far flung future, hence I started thinking about how bad our finances would need to get before we pulled the little one of nursery, flogged the car, flogged the house, etc, etc.

    Anyway happy Christmas all, particularly if you're also hiding from the dreaded duo of the Strictly and Call the Midwife Xmas specials. 

    Thinking and constantly projecting it, for your situation as a recent homeowner, on HPC housing economy forum.

    It's the same for each and every one of us - we have to think and weigh up risks, and our positions and finances in life, and take actions for what we think is best course - durrrr.    Risks exist.

    And as buytoleech has also explained, even outright owners have to weigh up value of their home in a market economy (price it becomes worth selling at to them).

    The more you pay for a house (with bigger mortgage) the more risk one takes on.   You're the one who began claiming that renters get the better deal from the State if their income drops for help with their rent.  Not so for those with any hard-earned savings with hope to buy, with house prices as they are.  You chose to buy in recent times.

    Everyone's situation different to certainly of employment / good incomes.   Maybe consider that before you buy house in 2015/16/17 - instead of playing it up how you could be a 'victim in the future as a homeowner' on HPC forum.

    I refuse to think of the market as in "but what about deadasadodo" as the homeowner and all his human shielding it for himself on HPC forum" if xyz-happens - which is seemingly how you want to project it.  You and other homeowners. 

    Think not what the you can do for the country, think about the benefits the homeowners deserve for their own choices, and priority-one deadasadodo; he may have to sell car, pull 'little one out of nursery' (bless - if partner not working then more time anyway).... and forbid the horror may have to sell home and become a renter/downsize.  IT'S ALL ON YOU.  Why the human shielding the obvious, promoting yourself to the homeowner who matters  most if your circumstances/income drops.

    The other exposure you have as owner is to more HPI+++++++.   Not paying rent.  Security of tenure.  Paying down mortgage under historically lower rates/    It's been years of 'Victim Homeowners Not Knowing Enough' including through 6+ years as London house prices soared/doubled.   

    I'm exposed to gnawing uncertainty of having to move again (S21 - two months) from LL side, and continuing to be RentForeverLoser as many homeowners (outright/equity rich/BTLers) see my position, and possible no HPC.

    Got my own family situation to look out for.  We can't own in school catchment we want to be in.  We also have to think about what happens in income drop.  What cars we drive.  We don't own a house because others pay far higher prices than we can/want to pay, with their own market choice to do so, all on them (and for years proven great vs renting in many areas).

    I get the positioning because read it so many times on HPC.  "You're born a victim."   "You live life a victim."  (Especially if you're a homeowner - even outright owner).  

    Because "no one has perfect knowledge about each action they take and the future" (ignoring fact some risks greater than others and lot of history to read/people to get advice from, and some things more likely to happen than not in risk profile) - "you're brainwashed/programmed victim of a conspiracy" and other people should stand ready to bail out if choices go bad.  Especially for homeowners.  People want homes for their families therefore doesn't matter what price you pay (victims/incapable on owner side).

    "No one really has any input into their own life choices" - all manipulated/programmed victims (with just a few 'superior' elite individuals who 'should be in charge of everyone else' / the great conspiracy uncoverers - statues built in their honour) 

    And you "die a victim".  (Apart from perfumed superiors who know so much more than lessors- but so many of those perfumed ones ... seems to me there's a lot of seeing others as lessors/incapable and themselves as superior).

  14. On 23/12/2017 at 9:11 AM, Ah-so said:

    Dealt with? 

    Sounds like a line from a Scorcese film. 

    On 23/12/2017 at 2:00 PM, Lambie said:

    They made him an offer he can't dislike.

    :lol:  Truly brilliant witty response, in all the circumstances.

    I missed the action on the day with Likes & Dislikes.  30 odd notifications re Muddlehead when I did log in - but it had all been turned-off; I assume they were Dislikes.

    Of course that Like/Dislike won't work when it's already 'a joy' for BTLers and HPIers at work on HPC.

  15. 3 hours ago, spyguy said:

    Id have an upper limit on housing equity. There's a cap on cash savings. So a cap of 150K seems fair.

    There should be no direct mortgage support, rather banks should be encourage to park the repayments for 2 years.

    The mortgage contract is between the bank and the mortgagee, not the tax payer.

    Remember the reason why you had a hiccup is due to the high prices of housing, propped up by a dumb system.

    SMI is going to be a charge against any equity at some point in future, iirc.

    What was homeowner bailout  in early 1990s? 

    I remember one person tell their blame-bank plight story, having bought-near-peak (with a spreadsheet that it would be worth £1m in future joyness - turning into disappointment - apparently banks to blame for choice to buy near peak for having suits and plush offices), got repossessed / possession by lender (presumably due to default/not enough savings reserve).

    It's his mortgage.  "Your path is yours to walk, and yours alone."   Everyone's situation is different.  Wouldn't many of us like to own a house in a nice area.   I can't afford to do so (well maybe I could with huge higher-risk mortgage, that some choose to take in outbidding other would-be owners/upsizers and renters).

    I won't feel bad as some sobby-story about change-of-circumstance (for a recentish buyer), with income drop from partner putting strain on their position, eating into their savings.  That mortgage is theirs, when they took it on, choosing to buy/own vs 'how great it is to be a renter (they say) for state pays it all".   Their circumstances are not my family's responsibility as priced-out renter.  HPC.

  16. On 18/12/2017 at 7:35 PM, Wayward said:

    Hope not...or if you do drop out of here keep on campaigning and agitating against HPI injustice. raising awareness, lobbying the powerful...The distortion of the housing market in the UK over recent decades will go down in history together with the enclosure movement as a grotesque and evil deliberate transfer of wealth. Dont give up shouting to the top.

    @Wayward - thanks Wayward. 

    Merry Christmas to you.

    Merry Christmas to all HPCers who know it / suffer consequences of housing financialisation / BTL idiocy and selfishness.

  17. On 19/12/2017 at 11:59 AM, nickb1 said:

    This point has nothing to do with the "homeowner" (ie mortgage holder). Kids, babies etc. are not homeowners right? Don't get me wrong, I want to see prices nosedive. But I don't want to see carnage too.

    The carnage is now - the 'suffering' and 'unfairness' is now, for many on the renter / unable to upsize side of the market... Gen Rent with kids too.

    Until we have HPC, we won't know if there is any such 'carnage' 

    There are millions of owners sat on fortunes of equity riches.

    And others just need some mild reality.... it's not carnage for some to have to downsize to a flat (with chunk of mad-gainz).

    Others have paid 10+ years of rent with no equity... had all the troubles of GenRent/BTLers/more HPI++++.

    Although it's always Human Shields for owners from so many on HPC.  I want HPC but I don't want carnage.  HPC = carnage/suffering.   "Now get back into your rental box, pay your landlord, look after his property, and shut up and stop threatening the HPI."

    Bit of mild reality - some sense returning to prices... described as carnage/suffering - as if some owners having to adjust l justifies to keep young so badly priced out in housing financialisation. 

    Only homeowners matter eh; "They have kids/babies".    (Renters do too)

    All the human shielding (for homeowners / and babies of homeowners)... on HPC forum.  How do you have stomach to read it (ohhhh by HPI+++/BTL+++ winning to extremes and no HPC) and new member deadasdodo also not wanting to see 'owner suffering' - (no matter what position of owner vs needs to sell... whatever super mad-gainz equity they have...  mortgage, even with mad-gainz worth fortune = their home.. if they can't pay mortgage). 

    Whereas what happens to renter-saver if can't pay rent?  No benefits.  No understanding keep them in homes (landlords won't put up with rents not paid).



    Using the fear tactic that you espouse (i.e. you too will get swept up in the flood) doesn't hold sway with me anymore.

    . The same such applies to ensuring restoration of financial sanity to the world. IF I have to suffer some (more than already) to ensure a better world for my children and their children than I gladly do so. What are you prepared to do?!





    Mortgage benefit cuts mean thousands could lose their homes

    2012:  Despite retiring last year the 68-year-old is still saddled with a whopping £150,000 home loan.

    ....who got an interest-only mortgage 10 years ago after his divorce left him having to find the money for a new home.



    “I could just about cope before,” said the retired property sales agent. “You cut back on food, you juggle bills and I put on extra layers and sleep in a sleeping bag at night.



    Finally he chose to sell it.  3 bed home to himself - playing the victim.  Not my fault his marriage didn't work out (have to work hard to keep my own relationships smooth on GenRent HPI+++/BTL++++ priced out side of things) and he thought he deserved big IO 3 bed home after divorce.... aged 58.

    12 Sep 2002: £128,500

    08 Aug 2014: £220,000




    2012 "Saddled with £150,000 mortgage "- more than he bought it for !!



    Was half-thinking of posting up the 2012 story of woman who claims she can't afford to eat, claiming to have wrapped up last year's Christmas presents to give to her kids (bullsh1t - and you can get a few interesting toys for 2-4 year olds for <£10)...... her 2005 purchase of nice home.   It's not her right.  She outbid others.  Adults/responsiblity.  And I found the house and I would imagine it's sympathy/QE/HPI+++++ since 2012.... as it had from 2005-2012... and no rent paid out for her (equity).

  18. 8 hours ago, jimmy2x3 said:

    when paying nig repair bills ive often thought maybe one of these deals would be the way to go. so i looked into and i think its total crap. there is a serious lack of freedom in these deals and i notice most people with them live in constant fear of a few scratches or a tear in the seat. then their is the restricted millage amount. to me these deals are like car rental deals where you pick up a car and are terrified of getting any damage and getting seriously ripped off by the rental firm.  i guess some folk can live with this stuff hanging over them, i cant, and there is the added bonus of no monthly payment especially in the dodgy employment market we have now, 

    na i will stick to saving 5k for a motor and take my chances i can sell on for 2-3k in 3 years without to many repairs needed. 

    That is your market view.

    No shortage of those who believe their choices so perfumed compared to lessor 'victim' people, and that they should be put in charge.

    If it were so (always living in fear), why have so many PCP deals been made over the years?  Because the advantages to the new-car driver outweigh those concerns.  Advantages include, reliability, enjoying new-ness, power/performance/safety and so on. 

    One of our cars took a ding and they wanted to charge us extra when it came to handover time.  Such is life.  No victims there.  Price one pays.   And it doesn't 'hang over' all PCP car drivers.  Many have the money/income... no need for a control-squad of superiors.


    Pablosammy said:
    As long as you do the sums, work out the total cost of ownership, and compare it against other available finance options, it's a perfectly valid way of owning a car. It's just a finance product, ultimately, and a relatively simple one at that.

    Yes, of course a £3k used Fiesta is cheaper to own than a C Class Merc on PCP, but some people don't mind paying more for a bit of luxury and a warranty. They're not idiots, they're not uninformed, they just made a different choice. The self-righteousness on here can be suffocating at times.


    HPCer-Other:  They have a deeply patronising attitude to the victim groups they seek to protect.

    They see them as totally helpless children without agency or the ability to make decisions of their own.




    Let's just ignore the IQ nonsense - I hope you didn't come to that conclusion by finding an egg in "fiendishly tricky" Daily Mail puzzle...

    Advantage of hiring cars is that cost is mostly known in advance, compared to unknown maintenance cost of owning a used car or rapid depreciation of a new one.

    I know exactly how much my PCH cost me over the next 2 years and; fear not, I have done the numbers!  

    Yes, I could live without that cost. Even better, I live close to work and I don't need a car at all!  However, I am quite frugal elsewhere, so why can't I have a damn car?!

    If we extrapolate your anti-car finance argument, we could argue that we should all just live with bare necessities - wrap up in old blanket and live in some tent eating root vegetables and roadkill.

    But people don't: they choose to buy new clothes, eat out, travel, buy cars, buy (bigger than necessary) accommodation.

    Is everyone who isn't wrapped up in old blanket, living in a tent while eating root vegetables and roadkill stupid?!


  19. 27 minutes ago, brit1234 said:

    My bet....

    It's strange for back in 'the good old days' she interviewed him on a couple of occasions for Property Tribes (YouTube).

    They may have fallen out pre S24.  PT is very different to PovertyLater.

    I read open contempt from Busta for PT lady, soon after Budget 2015, with a view that she wouldn't be able to understand the tax-changes, nevermind be a part of a pushback with PovertyLaters:mellow:  Sadly that entire thread has been pulled from PovertyLater.

    Busta is no computer genius.   I watched one of his earliest YT videos, with a dodgy video camera where all footage was swelling in and out, on a tour of the grounds of his home and then onto a property where one of his tenants had quit the property - and at that time he was reaching out to anyone viewing to help him with video-editing for he didn't know first thing about it.

    Obviously it's the people with a grudge from the we-key-leaks that have named them 'Vendetta'.

    As for how it leaked.. no idea.   As far as BTL groups go, PT try to educate on basics, and don't seem to like wide-type operators, so I put them before many other BTL type groups.  And wide-type operators tend to have grudge to them as well.


    - Think, Edmond.

    - ....   A close relative, possibly...  No!  Villefort's father was a colonel in Napoleon's army.

    -Count of Monte Cristo

  20. 5 hours ago, Greg Bowman said:

    ... I agree with the comment we are part of the problem, perversely we might be the solution. When you are out of a market and your kids are older it is sort of fun out of taking pot shots at your own generation - in a weird way quite energising and has a moral ring to it ! My wifes favourite line is 'if they don't look like they are going to collapse or hit you we have gone in too high helps I am a  a fit old unit unit who can box ;)

    The market needs STRs.  I might not be mad-happy about it, but a market needs sellers tempted out by mad-gainz... otherwise something wrong... (vs runaway foreverHPI)

    Sorry, I'm just being daft here, but always makes me smile.

    The Blairs Christmas 2014 Official Christmas Card - that sort of reaction/look?  :lol:

    ..See below.....

    When I've had a go in the past, it's not all boomers... (many individuals are just fine) - it's just that is where many a mindstate is about 'what it is worth' / ForeverHPI / can't go wrong etc, without much of a knock... in fact you put it best, back in 2015...


    Greg Bowman:  I think there are a fair proportion of boomers in the professional classes who have have been shielded from the vicissitudes of the world for two generations or more They are about to find out how the world works.



  21. 19 hours ago, dgul said:


    They're trying to tame the PCP beast by transferring risk to the PCP buyer.

    But the consequence to this will actually be that fewer cars are bought.  Sounds dangerous to me.

    Dunno how they're going to resolve it this time.

    Why dangerous?

    Also I don't fully get it (fewer used car sales?).   This is partly down to the collapse in the value of the pound following the EU referendum and fewer used car sales – neither of which are likely to reverse markedly in the immediate future.

    I remember 2008-2010 when dealership interest wrote down the values of their commercial premises (iirc), then scrappage schemes.  That would seem to be likely consequence (fewer new cars bought under PCP).  So what would be the likely effects, apart from some people less content at being able to afford brand new nice cars (not exactly suffering that) ?


    We don't walk anywhere. We travel as nature intended: in the largest possible vehicle with the maximum horsepower allowed by local law enforcement. And if there's no cars available, we find the biggest, nastiest, meanest, land animal we possibly can - show it who is boss - and saddle that puppy up.  (Red vs Blue)

  22. 5 hours ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

    As far as I can tell...the bankers are running the shoe.

    We are all hoping for a HPC, meanwhile those ****s are enslaving us and taking everything we own/work for.

    I want strong banks - to handle HPC - but just don't want it to take a lifetime to get there.

    In the meantime, you're overlooking the 'what is it worth' extreme HPI and BTL winners, who are very happy.

    And despite all their mad-gainz security/wealth, it interests me how they are also so willing to have a go and blame the banks, almost in the same breath as they tell you 'what it is worth'.  They are not enslaved.  

    It's not just the banks - there are protective HPI/mad-gainz winners in the system - no 'we' hugz.



    Average UK house price to hit £780,000 by 2040, says leading think tank

    Kilo Charlie, My World, 9 hours ago
    We purchased a property in 1983 for £72,000.........today it's worth £650,000 plus. It's certainly possible and quite likely.

    Sam, Bucks, 3 hours ago
    Bought house in ,74 for 16k added extention about £8k now valued at £480k you do the maths?



  23. 20 hours ago, nothernsoul said:

    Council tax rising will have no direct effect on residential property prices, its a pseudo property tax anyway. If the government belatedly decided, after  over 25 years to revaluate residential property, and add an extra band at 500 thousand, that might have an effect. 

    It's still a little bit of an extra drag on finances.  

    Been reading some squeals from BTLers where councils more forceful in chasing CT in void times as well.


    Emma Roid: One day it'll all grind to a halt because a few people are rich on paper but no one has any money. 

  24. 7 hours ago, mathschoc said:

    I rent, I pay the council tax as do all the other renters in the block live in. No homeowners here.

    i don’t mind paying more for services that help the community, I do mind when the council slash the size of the library so that they can rent out two thirds of it to a big brand coffee shop. Councils can make money without raising rates, they just raise them anyway.

    Need to balance my books now so will make a cut somewhere. 

    Caught mention of it on Twitter (Georgist's opening lol) and just presumed it would be cash towards rising cost of care for elderly and council wages/pensions, but maybe it's a fairer spread.   Either do I - but paying to keep people in homes they can't afford mortgages on SMI/other, when they have £100K+ of equity, is a NO for me. 


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