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  1. it would seem the computer is not always as benign as you claim Homeowners are having tens of thousands of pounds wiped off their property price because they are failing to contest low valuations. These low estimates are causing further misery to homeowners who have already seen a third wiped off their house prices. As a result, mortgage brokers are urging homeowners wanting to remortgage not to accept a valuation if they think it's too low - or risk missing out on the best home loan deals. Jonathan and Alexandra Croucher would not take the low valuation they were given for their home Jonathan and Alexandra Croucher would not take the low valuation they were given for their home A low valuation can be devastating for any homeowner searching for a good remortgage deal. It means the homebuyer's equity in their home is cut - with the result that many of the best remortgage offers are closed to them. As a result, families are being forced on to more expensive mortgage deals costing them hundreds of pounds extra each month. The phenomenon has been created by banks and building societies using average mortgage valuations for your area or regional house price indices rather than proper, individual surveys. More... * How to challenge remortgage valuations (thisismoney.co.uk) * House price tables: who says what? (thisismoney.co.uk) In these instances, those remortgaging onto a new mortgage deal are not visited by a surveyor, but instead are given an estimated price for their property based on a computer programme. This takes into account similar types of homes in your region. In some cases the region could be as large as the county where you live. But they fail to take in to account very localised house price bubbles - where despite the property slump homes are clinging on to their value. Many homeowners have added value to their houses by doing them up. Now mortgage brokers are reporting a sudden increase in the number of homeowners choose to contest the value the mortgage lender has placed on their home. David Hollingworth from London & Country says: 'While homeowners do have to accept that there has been a considerable fall in house prices, they should contest a valuation if it comes in much lower than they think their home is worth. You have to base your own estimate on facts, and not just sentiment towards your home. 'If you don't, then you could be forced on to a higher mortgage rate which could force up the cost of your repayments.' The credit crunch has created a gulf between the rates offered to those with small and big deposits. If you have 40 per cent equity then you can qualify for a two-year fixed rate at 3.34 per cent. With 25 per cent equity you can get a rate of 3.99 per cent - pushing up monthly repayments on a typical £150,000 loan by £53 a month. But with less equity than this, you face a rate of 5.99 per cent - a further £205 a month. It is a common practice for banks and building societies to use average house prices as a guide for valuing your home, especially when remortgaging as it saves costs. In many cases in built up areas where all the properties are the same, it will prove a reasonably accurate guide. But in streets where the styles and types of house vary, or in villages and the suburbs of towns the price of similar homes can vary widely. As a result, a three-bedroom home in one street might be worth £30,000 more than another less than a mile away. Contesting a mortgage valuation can be a gamble as the surveyor could decide your property is worth less than you think. The National Association of Estate Agents has criticised the valuation process. Chief executive Peter Bolton-King says: 'Undervaluing properties creates the knock-on effect of sellers having to drop prices and those homeowners who are looking to remortgage their property being left with little room to manoeuvre.' Chartered surveyor Barry Hall, a spokesman for the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, says: 'When a surveyor visits your house they will take in to account the condition of your property and what other properties have been valued at in the local area. It can takes in to account very localised property price fluctuations. Of course, a surveyor's value will not always meet the expectation of the owner.' Meanwhile, Jonathon Croucher successfully got the valuation on his home increased by £25,000 after they disagreed with the initial valuation. IT manager Jonathon, 34, and wife Alexandra, 33, bought their house in Haslemere, Surrey for £350,000 in February 2008 with a 15 per cent deposit. Even though house prices have fallen since, they have spent thousands of pounds redecorating. When they came to remortgage this July Halifax used an average for their region and valued the property at £275,000. Leaving them in negative equity and facing a steep mortgage rate. Jonathon says: 'I knew that was too low. I have friends that are estate agents who thought it was worth more, and even got local agents to come round to confirm it. We thought it should be worth around £330,000.' He challenged Halifax and paid a £350 fee to have a surveyor visit. He valued the house at £300,000. Jonathon adds: 'I'm still not completely happy with that but it does at least allow us to get a much better mortgage deal that we would otherwise have had.' http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/money/articl...lue-houses.html makes you think just what would the puter have said in my example? rock on!
  2. think you only got part of the equation there ss do you not also have to include obviously those made redunant and the many more who received pay cuts and or hours cut? this equation could get complicated! rock on!
  3. exactly you have not a clue what it was like i can tell you that those that lived through the 70s shed very few tears when maggie weilded the axe in the 80s they rejoiced and bought sids shares as for electric trains fine for some but there are many who live in the west of province 20 plus miles from the nearest station of course this situation arose after the train companies had been nationalised yes government always knows best! rock on!
  4. some might consider this more subprime lending but is not surprising when one considers who owns BM well it is now part of the Loyds group with the majority of it now owned by the government funded by us taxpayers will these loans be part of the 260 billon they want us to insure? http://www.bankingtimes.co.uk/08032009-llo...tate-ownership/ The disastrous takeover of HBOS by Lloyds TSB has landed the Lloyds Banking Group merged entity in majority state ownership. Negotiations on the group’s participation in the Government’s Asset Protection Scheme extended a week beyond their initial deadline and have ended in an agreement that could see the taxpayer’s stake in the business rise from 43% to around 65% or even 75%. The higher stake could occur because the bank is also receiving an injection of capital in return for “B†shares which may, at some point in the future, be converted to ordinary shares, which carry voting rights. Lloyds TSB, which has weathered the credit crisis relatively well, agreed to acquire HBOS in October of last year. The deal was brokered by the Government and flouted competition rules. The speed at which it was completed raised questions about the extent of due diligence and last week HBOS revealed that it had brought with it losses of £10.8 billion for 2008, against Lloyds TSB’s profit of £807 million for the year. The group is now keen to place risky assets in the Government’s guarantee scheme and according to a BBC report, has £260 billion of toxic loans to insure. Under the terms of the deal, Lloyds Banking Group will surrender to Government control and increase lending to businesses and individuals to £28 billion in the next two years. Lloyds TSB shareholders have seen the value of their stock plummet since the announcement of the merger and the latest turn of events is likely to call into question the future of chairman, Sir Victor Blank, and chief executive, Eric Daniels. rock on!
  5. been there before dont work or do you not remember "the winter of discontent" rolling blackouts etc of the 70s led directlly to maggie being elected and privitisation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent rock on!
  6. much appreciated so lets take an investor who bought 2 years ago at peak boom prices at that time any hovel was 200k lets say he took out a 2 year deal 90% ltv interest only pretty standard at the time what price will a valuer put on his investment today i suspect not much over 100 k so BM would only be giving him a 75 k morgage so unless he has 100k in his pocket to pay off the old morgage reomorgaging at the above rates is only a pipe dream! or did i get my sums wrong? rock on!
  7. ok woodzer lets take refuse and ES which you believe should be run by the government paid for by the tax payer and rate payer my bins are lifted on a monday from being out and about it is not hard to see that the bin lorry spends more time parked up with the driver drinking tea and reading papers than he does lifting bins i know you are saying rnr exagerating a little well on a bank holiday when there is no one to see what time he arrives back at depot he has the run done and dusted before mid day! if this is the case across the rest of this wee province then we have twice as many bin lorries as we actually need a new bin lorry costs ratepayers something like 150k a pop! if we had private companies competing would we have this waste? dont even get me started about NHS and trolley waits etc suffice to say if we treated animals like the way patients with severe fractures can be treated at times in my local hospital then the rspca would be down on us like a ton of bricks! just one wee example between public and private a surgeon i know specialising in hip replacements in a day in an nhs hospital he gets 3 operations done usually. never more in a private hospital with less staff he does 5 everyday! rock on!
  8. ah go on ss tell us more who is offering these btl "excellent deals"? rock on!
  9. ah go on ss tell us more who is offering these btl "excellent deals"? rock on!
  10. colin look at the bigger picture IMO the best case scenario for the next few years is this we are currently being feather bedded by a government trying to win the next election using mountains of unsustainable debt to do so this if we are lucky will last till the tories are elected next may then while they have the oportunity to blame it all on the previous government will slash goverment expenditure many more jobs will go paypackets at best will be frozen VAT will get a hike along with a weaker pound which the tories always love inflation will take off interest rates will follow do you really expect houses not to continue to fall only when they start to worry about the next election and splash the cash again will houseprices have a hope of rising depressing i know but only history repeating itself rock on!
  11. too many houses too many hotels http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/financ...4252548128.html The once €150-a-night rooms might be sold for €50 or less, plunging owners further into the red and leaving staff fretting for their livelihoods. The damp summer season fades into autumn with no money in the bank and no hope of borrowing more for what promises to be a harsh winter. And yet the hotels not only remain open for business, but are almost single-handedly propping up classified ad revenues in newspapers with new bed-and-breakfast packages. “Come stay with us,†they beg, “we’ll upgrade you to a suite and throw in a free massage.†There are some 65,000 hotel and guesthouse bedrooms for cash-strapped “staycationers†to choose from. Although the hotel sector says this is 10,000 to 12,000 rooms too many and hotels are, technically speaking, failing all around the State for want of people to crease their sheets, the check-in desks remain eager for new arrivals. But what is the reason for this five-star folly? It’s the clawbacks, according to the Irish Hotels Federation (IHF). The tax incentives that once seduced the industry are now destroying it. About €330 million worth of capital allowances were used by the industry between 2004 and 2007, with the size of the tax foregone peaking at €118 million in the final year of the scheme. At first, the incentives helped. Hoteliers with what the industry refers to as “stale product†and what visitors know as dingy rooms promptly called in the refurbishment companies. But the tax breaks were used too heavily by the wrong people in the wrong places (“you should never build lighthouses in bogs,†says Philip Gavin of the Talbot Hotel group), creating a legacy of severe overcapacity. Coupled with an all-pervasive global dip in trade, it has left Irish hotels officially half-empty: the latest occupancy rate, according to IHF president Matthew Ryan, is 53 per cent. It is little wonder, then, that there were cries of “feck the developers!†at the Grand Hotel in Malahide this week, as more than 200 struggling hoteliers congregated for a crisis meeting. The real kicker is that the clawback conditions mean that, if a hotel does not stay open for seven years after the redevelopment, the investors have to repay the sums they offset against their personal tax bills. So they remain open, unprofitable and uncared for, but snaffling away custom from their neighbouring hotel cluster or forcing them to match their no-star rates. IHF figures suggest there are about 21,000 hotel rooms across the State that fall short of the seven years of age needed to prevent clawbacks. Drowning in debt, but still clinging on, many of these hotels want to close, but can’t. It is a strange state of affairs when modest, cautious, sustainable businesses can be run into the ground not by the success of their newer, cheaper, riskier competitors but by their failure – already rubber-stamped by receivers in some cases. “We’ve got to separate the businesses that are operating under their normal commitments and the businesses that are artificially being kept alive,†says IHF chief executive John Power. “There are hotels in receivership where the debts are drawing a line under the sand and the objective of the receiver is just to protect the bank’s asset, maintain it and sell it, or recycle it in some way. That’s creating unfair competition. That’s not what business is actually about. “Then you have the overhanging clawbacks and the investors who are putting in more money to keep them alive and avoid having to repay the tax reliefs they got. Again, that’s distorting the market.†Abolishing this barrier to exit would help bring about an “orderly†reduction in hotel numbers. “It costs the State nothing to remove it,†says Power. There is widespread annoyance within longer-standing members of the industry that its numbers were infiltrated by a crude developer class. “Give the hotel industry back to the hoteliers, that’s my line,†says Michael Rosney, in business with his wife for 30 years at the Killeen House Hotel in Killarney, Co Kerry. Rosney remembers the 1970s revolution in the business, when builders who had gone to the UK came back with “biscuit tins full of money†and threw up big hotels. But at least there was genuine demand back then. Many of the 1990s and Noughties generation of tax-break investors did not understand the hotel business; nor did they want to. It was only meant to be a seven-year game. Building specs were viewed with one eye on the potential conversion opportunities to apartment units or retirement homes. Who needs German couples and Dutch hikers when you’ve got the tax break? “It’s a big concrete jungle out there,†says Gavin, who runs the Talbot hotels in Carlow and Wexford and the Stillorgan Park Hotel, which he says is suffering due to an oversupply in Dublin, “the likes of which we have never seen and will probably never see again.†For Ryan, managing director of the family-run Grand Hotel, it is quite simple. “They shouldn’t have been there. A real hotelier would look at a location properly and would have said ‘absolutely no way’ it can never repay its investment and it will never survive in the location that it’s in.†There has been a tripling of bedroom volumes in the Grand Hotel’s catchment area over the past five years, with the addition of 2,500 rooms at Dublin airport. “Our big problem is rate. You can bring your rate crashing from €150 to €50, and you’re not getting any extra business because there’s no extra business out there,†says Ryan. “It’s silly, and when you see hotels going below cost, you think, well we’re not going there. We’re going to survive and we have to survive. We’re second-generation here.†What worries Power and Ryan most is that, while the five-star “portfolio†hotels such as Hugh O’Regan’s planned resort at the Kilternan hotel in Co Wicklow and big players such as the Dunne Group or Lynch Hotels generate national headlines when they fail, the rank and file of the hotel industry could be allowed to hit the wall quietly, taking down their local communities with them. The sector now has a “risk profile†that the banks will not touch, and working capital – in other words, the seasonal overdrafts that have been traditional in the industry for decades – is typically being cut by 50 per cent. “Because the downturn in visitors began from mid-2008, hotels’ reserves were already lower going into the winter,†Power adds. “The overdrafts were used to their limits, so people are only coming out of them now, two or three months behind when they normally would have done it. We’re not going to have reserves going into this winter, in fact many people would still be in overdraft, and then you need another overdraft to get you through this winter.†If there is one thing hoteliers can count on, it’s that the weather will be as spectacularly unhelpful as always. There was a suitably grey sky on Wednesday morning as hoteliers piled into the Grand. Without the sun, Malahide beach and marina were as subdued as the faces gathering inside. The IHF is a broad church, where family guesthouse owners rub shoulders with large chain operators such as Pat McCann’s Maldron Hotels, which is happily signing up to provide the management services that keep some failed hotels open. So agendas can conflict as much as they overlap. Maldron Hotels deputy chief executive Stephen McNally told The Irish Times that the company was working on the basis that the hotels in receivership that it was managing, such as Whites Hotel in Co Wexford, would have “a bright futureâ€, although he added that the group was turning down some businesses where there was “no point going inâ€. There was widespread support, however, for the IHF executive’s five-point proposal to the Government: the abolition of the tax clawbacks; ensuring that the National Asset Management Agency (Nama) does not create further “distortions†in the market; the introduction of new incentives for equity investments (properly structured this time); new State-guaranteed credit facilities; and a 30 per cent reduction in local authority charges. With the low season fast approaching, Power and Ryan have written to three Government Ministers stressing the urgency of the need to fix the hotels sector before the only business that anyone can rely upon is room bookings for their rivals’ creditors’ meetings. But the line of lobby groups crying foul to policymakers is long and so there was an unveiled threat in the air on Wednesday: if nothing is done to help, the industry will simply default on its local authority rates. So how many will not make the cut? “You never know,†says Power. “I’ve talked to people who I would have thought were utterly sound and were the last people in the world that might have been in financial difficulty and found that they were in crisis talks with their banks. And then there are certain other people out there and you wonder how in God’s name are they surviving?†Dark times: one hotelier’s story “I’VE BEEN through recessions, foot-and-mouth, Sars, 9/11, bird and swine flus, seen them all. They were only temporary inconveniences relative to the crisis we now find ourselves in,†says Joe Dolan, proprietor of the Bush Hotel, a 60-bedroom three- star in Carrick-on-Shannon, Co Leitrim, for the past 25 years. “The big issue is overcapacity. There are 2½ times as many rooms 40 miles from my hotel as there was two years ago, and that means I need 2½ times as many visitors as before. Superimpose on to that recession and you have a nightmare. “Visitor numbers and visitor spend are down 20 to 25 per cent. In addition, you have hotels with excess capacity, particularly the newer ones, in crisis management and they are below-cost selling out of necessity, because it’s all about cash. “They need cash to pay next Friday’s wages.†Dolan, in Dublin to attend the Irish Hotels Federation’s emergency summit, says he is “only treading waterâ€, which is unsustainable. “I must have profit. If I don’t have profits, I can’t reinvest, therefore my product will become stale and I’m at a competitive disadvantage, so you start to go down the tube,†he says, his eyes welling up slightly. “All those other things I mentioned, foot-and-mouth and so on, they were very tangible things. You could actually see them, put your hand on them, and you knew, when the dust settled after the cooling-off period, you were out of the woods,†Dolan adds. “This thing is open-ended. There’s no light at the end of the tunnel, there’s no quick-fix solutions, there’s no hiding places. It’s global, it’s across every sector, it’s what we face.†The issue in numbers 60,729 – number of hotel bedrooms in Ireland; 4,070 – number of guesthouse rooms; 200,000 – number of people employed in the tourism industry; €6.3 billion – sum contributed to the Irish economy by the industry in 2008; €1.5 billion – domestic tourism expenditure in 2008; 70 per cent – average fall in profits across the industry this year forecast by accountancy firm Horwath Bastow Charleton (HBC); 53 per cent – occupancy rate in Ireland’s 925 hotels, according to the Irish Hotels Federation (IHF); 10 per cent – number of hotels opened in the past five years that will close, according to HBC; 18.4 per cent – annual decline in overseas visitor numbers, Central Statistics Office (CSO) figures show; 16.2 per cent – average drop in accommodation rates over the past year, according to the CSO; 25 per cent – what the IHF says is the annual fall in revenues per room over that period. This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times rock on!
  12. http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/t...ty-1861366.html Sunday August 16 2009 THE plight of the embattled developer Liam Carroll -- who owes eight banks €1.2bn -- took another turn for the worse last week when the Supreme Court decided to withdraw protection for his companies. The threat of insolvency now hangs over Carroll. But Carroll and the other developers in dire straits are not the only ones up to their eyes in debt. Tens of thousands of Irish investors are in financial meltdown after snapping up hyped overseas property investments at the height of the boom. About 150,000 Irish investors are thought to have bought properties in Spain, while thousands more punters flocked to Portugal, Florida, Dubai, Bulgaria, Turkey and elsewhere. As the price of many of these properties has collapsed -- some by as much as 80 per cent -- many don't have the option of selling their holiday homes to pay off the massive loans thrown at them by Irish and foreign banks. The difference between the current market value of their holiday home -- and the amount of money borrowed a few years ago to buy it -- has become so marked that many owners of overseas property are facing financial ruin. "At the very least, thousands of Irish people are in trouble with overseas property," said Tom McGrath, a senior partner with Dublin law firm Tom McGrath & Associates. "There's a huge amount of people falling behind on the mortgage repayments for their holiday home. A lot of them want to walk away from the property and hand back the keys -- but it's not that simple anymore. The borrower has to do a deal with the bank. "Many borrowers are adopting an ostrich approach to the problem -- and that doesn't work. Banks are entitled to repossess a foreign property, and they have even set up their own websites to sell such properties." In a desperate bid to offload repossessed holiday homes, foreign banks and estate agents have slashed the price of such properties. The Spanish bank, Caixa Catalunya, owns Procam, a website offering discounts of up to 40 per cent on chalets and villas in Spain. The price of four-bed chalets in Arroyomolinos has been knocked back to €277,500 -- down from €462,500. A villa in Girona, Catalonia, is advertised on Procam for €483,300 -- that's down from €537,000. Another sales website, www.llavetex.com, is managed by the Spanish bank, Caja Murcia. Last Thursday, 243 flats were listed for sale on the website for the region of Murcia alone. About 127 flats were listed for Alicante. Caja Madrid, one of the biggest savings banks in Spain, has its own official auction agents, Reser. Some of the properties on the Reser website are selling for about 40 per cent below their market value. One property in Alicante was for sale last week for €210,000 -- that's €125,000 below its market value. Spain isn't the only country where the value of holiday homes has collapsed. With 1.5 million homes repossessed in the United States in the first six months of this year, house prices there have taken a hammering. And Florida -- where thousands of Irish people snapped up retirement homes -- is no exception. Two years ago, a two-bed, two-bath condo in the Ibis complex in Naples sold for between US$370,000 and $450,000, according to the Cork broker, Jack French & Associates. The condos are now selling for $84,000 -- a massive price drop of over 80 per cent. In Orlando, two-bed, two-bath condos in the Tradewinds complex have been reduced to $68,420 from $200,000. One Dublin financial adviser, who did not wish to be named, said its clients "had lost a lot of money" in Florida. "In one case, a site was bought for €1m and €2m was then spent building a property on the site. That entire property is now priced at only €1m -- so the client has lost €2m." Price drops in Dubai have also been staggering. The United Arab Emirates city, which witnessed rapid growth in recent years, recorded the most dramatic drop in house prices in the first three months of this year, according to the latest Knight Frank Global House Price Survey. The price drop of 40 per cent was 10 times worse than that recorded by Knight Frank for Ireland. About six years ago, the Dubai property market was opened up to foreigners -- a move which attracted a flood of Irish, British and other overseas investors. But many of those investors, lured by Dubai's low taxes and glittering skyline, are now licking their wounds. In some cases, the price of the properties snapped up has halved. Last September, prices of water homes in the luxury Palm Jebel Ali resort started at €1,018,519. They are now selling for €526,882 -- almost half last year's price. The starting price of town homes in Palm Jebel Ali has dropped by about 43 per cent -- from €833,333 last September to €473,118 today. In Portugal, the price of properties based outside resorts has fallen by between 25 and 30 per cent, while resorts have seen a price drop of about 5 per cent, according to Martin Date, director with the overseas property company, Oceanico. "The downturn in the Irish economy has inevitably had an impact [on the Portuguese property market]," said Date. "Some people are trying to offload their properties. In the first six months of this year, there was very little appetite for Portuguese property from the Irish market." Bulgaria was another country plugged as a 'property hotspot' about four or five years ago. Back then, the now disgraced solicitor Michael Lynn was still at large. Among the properties promoted by Lynn were apartments in the All Seasons ski resort in Bansko, Bulgaria. In summer 2006, one-bed apartments in this resort sold for €55,000. The price has since dropped by over a tenth to €49,146. Whether these apartments would actually fetch that price on the open market is another question. Jack French, the owner of Jack French & Associates, said that price drops of properties in the Sunny Beach resort in Bulgaria have been "awful". In Hungary, prices have dropped by an average of 23 per cent, according to Jozsef Sztranyak, president of the Federation of Hungarian Real Estate Associations. "Most overseas property has dropped in price over the last two years," said Ann Collins, auctioneer with PropertyAuction.ie, a website set up to help distressed property owners sell off their homes. "Anyone who bought property in Bulgaria in the last two to three years will find it very hard to sell as these properties are worthless. "I get phone calls every day of the week from people trying to sell on properties bought in Turkey. Prices in Turkey have dropped by between 30 and 50 per cent. England is another big concern. There's a huge amount of Irish who bought in England over the past 12 months -- but many of these properties are probably only worth half of what they paid for it back then." Much of the overseas properties snapped up by over- eager buyers were bought on the back of promises of "guaranteed" rental income, which would supposedly cover the mortgage repayments on their property. Many of these guarantees never rang true -- or expired a lot earlier than expected. "We have come across a number of instances whereby people would have purchased a property overseas, financed by a foreign mortgage and the hope or ideal situation was that the rental income, or the "guaranteed" rental income, would be sufficient to service the mortgage repayments," said David O'Donnell, partner with Tom McGrath & Associates. "However, if the owner cannot rent the property, or is not receiving their "guaranteed" rental income, many are finding that they cannot afford to meet the monthly mortgage repayments, and instead of dealing with the problem, they choose to ignore the correspondence from the bank. "In a lot of cases, the foreign bank sends the various notices, demands for payments and so on to the mortgaged property -- not to the owner's address in Ireland." This inevitably leads to cases of overseas properties being repossessed -- and bought by local families -- without the knowledge of the Irish owner. Mr O'Donnell said he knew of at least one instance where a foreign bank repossessed an Irish man's house in Spain. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Many of those who bought overseas property during the boom years are among the 423,400 people now on the dole queue. The chances of meeting repayments on the mortgage for their own home -- never mind an overpriced villa in the sun -- are already slim. Thousands of overstretched Irish borrowers are struggling with the financial burden they took on to buy an overseas property. That struggle will continue for some time yet. ah the grass is greener somewhere faraway! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU5L_zUhhUo rock on!
  13. been in nama land most of the week never thought like most of its residents that the supreme court would not be more "pragmatic" and carrol and his banking buddies would be favoured in the judgement in relation to carrol it is not hundreds of millons it is billons the zoe group was only one string to his bow he has others the experts are saying all his companies could owe the banks north of 2.5 billon! many wanted to believe nama would work sweep the whole mess up a few short years mild pain then back to "normal" the courts judgements and the snakes crawling out of the cesspit have shattered this illusion now many are wondering are the governments days numbered? will they even get nama passed? http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gr...nk-1858517.html A NEW revolt from Green Party grassroots members poses a serious threat to the Government's plans to set up a 'bad bank'. Several sections of the party's organisation have formally called for a special convention to firmly hammer out the Greens' policy on NAMA, the Irish Independent has learned. If enough members vote against the 'bad bank', Green Party ministers and TDs will be blocked from supporting the Government's NAMA legislation, plunging the coalition into crisis. interesting times! rock on!
  14. we seemed to have missed this article from the mega bear dub prof well worth a read http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinio...4249965637.html OPINION: Nama is in effect Fianna Fáil’s shrine to the property bubble for which the party still yearns. Prepare to pay 10 per cent more in income tax for the next 10 years to pay for it all . . . we are headed for national bankruptcy, argues MORGAN KELLY WRITING HERE two years ago, I pointed out that the exuberant lending of Irish banks to builders and property developers would sink them if the property bubble burst. Since then, the bubble has burst, the banks have sunk, and we are all left wondering how to salvage them. Two ideas for fixing the banks have been suggested: a bad bank or National Asset Management Agency (Nama) and nationalisation. While these proposals differ in detail, their impact will be identical. Irish taxpayers will be stuck with a large bill, and in return will get an undercapitalised and politically controlled banking system. A far more efficient and cheaper alternative to Nama is to copy what Barack Obama did with General Motors, and transfer ownership of Irish banks to their bond holders. In this way we can achieve well capitalised banks, run without political interference, at minimal cost to taxpayers. By converting a portion of Allies Irish Banks’ approximately €40 billion of bonds, and Bank of Ireland’s €50 billion, into shares, each institution can be recapitalised. Transferring ownership to bond holders will not cost the taxpayer a cent and will avoid interminable legal battles over the transfer of assets to Nama. While the shaky state of Irish banks had been worrying investors since early 2007, when the crisis finally broke in late September the Government was taken completely by surprise and reacted with blind panic. Faced with a run on Anglo Irish Bank by institutional depositors on September 29th, the Government was stampeded into guaranteeing virtually all liabilities, except shares, of the six Irish banks. This guarantee contained two obvious but fundamental flaws. Everything that has happened since – the proposed recapitalisation of Anglo, the nationalisation of Anglo, the establishment of Nama – can be understood as the Government scrambling to catch up with the consequences of these two errors. The first mistake was to guarantee not only deposits – which had to be guaranteed – but also most of the existing bonds issued by banks to other financial institutions. Bond holders receive higher returns in the knowledge that they are accepting the risk of losses on their investment. In addition, unlike depositors who can scarper, existing bond holders are effectively stuck. It made no sense for the Government to insist that taxpayers would take the hit on any bank losses instead of the financial institutions that had already entered legal contracts to do so. The second mistake was to extend the guarantee to Anglo Irish and Irish Nationwide. As specialised property development lenders with incompetent management, they were at risk of heavy losses as their market collapsed, and fulfilled no role in the wider economy. In making the guarantee on September 29th, I do not doubt that the Government believed that the difficulties of Irish banks ran no deeper than temporary liquidity problems stemming from the international crisis. However, as it has become apparent that Anglo was a mismanaged wreck, with AIB and Bank of Ireland scarcely better, the Government has stuck with the mantra that all banks are equally important and equally worth saving at any cost to the taxpayer. Brian Lenihan and Brian Cowen are happier to dice with national bankruptcy than lose face by admitting that they were misled about the state of Irish banks last September. Nama, then, is the latest twist in the Government’s increasingly bizarre efforts to save the Irish banking system while claiming that it does not really need to be saved. Underlying Nama is the delusion that the collapse of our property bubble is a temporary downturn. In a few years time when the global economy recovers we will be back building houses like it was 2006. All the ghost estates, empty office blocks, guest-less hotels and weed choked fields that Nama has bought on our behalf will once again be worth a fortune. The reality is that, because of our surfeit of empty housing, there will be almost no construction activity for the next decade. Empty apartment blocks in Dublin will eventually be rented, albeit at rates so low that many will decay into slums. However, most of the unfinished estates that litter rural Ireland – where the only economic activity was building houses – will never be occupied. Nama is a variant on the “Cash for Trash†scheme briefly floated in the United States last year where the government would recapitalise banks by overpaying for their bad loans. Our Government is proposing to buy €90 billion of loans and will reportedly pay €75 billion for them. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) guesses that Nama will cost us €35 billion, and this is probably optimistic. The narrowness of the Irish property market meant that banks effectively operated a pyramid scheme, bidding up prices against each other. Now that banks cannot lend, development assets are effectively worthless. The taxpayer is likely to lose well over €25 billion on Anglo alone. Among its “assets†are €4 billion lent for Irish hotels, and almost €20 billion for empty fields and building sites. In fact, I suspect that the €20 billion already repaid to the casino that was Anglo represents winners cashing in their chips, while the outstanding €70 billion of loans will turn out to be worthless. And it is well to remember, as the architects of Nama have not, that although the problems of Irish banks begin with developers, they do not end there. The same recklessness that impelled banks to lend hundreds of millions to builders to whom most of us would hesitate to lend a bucket; also led them to fling tens of billions in mortgages, car loans, and credit cards at people with little ability to repay. Even without the bad debts of developers, the losses on these household loans over the next few years will probably be sufficient to drain most of the capital out of AIB and Bank of Ireland. Brian Lenihan’s largesse to bond holders could cost you and me €50 to €70 billion. What do numbers like these mean? The easiest way to put numbers of this magnitude into perspective is to remember that in 2008 the Government generated €13 billion in income tax. Every time you hear €10 billion, then, think of paying 10 per cent more income tax annually for the next decade. In other words, the fiscal capacity of a state with only two million taxpayers, and falling fast, is frighteningly thin. Ten billion here, and ten billion there and, before you know it, you are talking national bankrutcy. Even without bankrupty, Nama will ensure a crushing tax burden for everyone in Ireland for decades. The tragedy is that, were it not for the Government’s botched efforts to save financiers from the predictable consequences of their own greed, the Irish economy would have recovered far more quickly than most people, including the IMF, expect. Recovery for the Irish economy will not be easy – there is no painless way for an economy to move from getting about 20 per cent of its national income from construction to getting about zero – but the flexibility of the Irish labour market would have ensured that our incomes and share of global trade would have rapidly recovered. Now, however, any fruits of recovery will be squandered on Nama. Aside from the fact that Nama will spend huge sums to achieve little, its governance is problematic. Here, the fog of secrecy that has quietly settled over Anglo Irish since nationalisation sets an unsettling precedent. After revelations of financial irregularities forced the resignation of three executive directors, Anglo moved decisively to replace them with . . . Anglo insiders. Most astonishing, in the light of the scandal over Irish Nationwide deposits, was the decision to replace Anglo’s disgraced financial director with his immediate subordinate, Anglo’s chief financial officer. It is hard not to conclude that a deliberate decision has been made at the highest level of Government that what happened in Anglo, stays in Anglo. And we can expect Nama to be run in the same tight manner. While there has been considerable speculation about dark motives for bailing out developers and banks, I do not believe that the Government’s behaviour has been corrupt: it has been far worse. At least corruption implies a sense that you are doing wrong, and need to be paid in return. Our Government actually thought it was doing the right thing in risking everything to safeguard the interests of developers who had given us an economy that was the envy of Europe. Instead of recognising bankers and developers as parasites on our national prosperity, the Government came to see them as its source. While everyone else in Ireland has come to see the past decade as an embarrassing episode of collective insanity to be put behind us as soon as possible, the Government still sees it as the high point of our nation’s history. Nama is effectively Fianna Fáil’s shrine to the bubble, and likely to be an expensive and enduring one. What should be done instead of Nama? First, we need to understand how the idea of Nama follows from a mistaken analogy with the Swedish banking crisis and bad bank of the early 1990s. The Swedish banks differed in one fundamental way from ours: they only had deposits as liabilities. If their government had not taken over their bad debts, ordinary depositors would have suffered. By contrast, Irish banks had borrowed heavily from other financial institutions through bonds, and these bondholders originally agreed to take losses if Irish banks got into difficulties. By placing the costs of the banking collapse primarily on existing holders of bank bonds, the State can improve its credit rating and pull back from the edge of bankruptcy. Knowing that taxpayers are not liable for the losses of AIB and Bank of Ireland will make capital markets more willing to lend to the Irish State. Instead, like a corpulent Tooth Fairy gently slipping billions under the pillows of sleeping bond holders, Brian Lenihan has chosen to extend the liability guarantee and further weaken the bargaining position of the State. The drift into national bankruptcy looks increasingly unstoppable. Morgan Kelly is professor of economics at University College Dublin rock on!
  15. i wonder how many northern taxpayers realise the dept of their "involvement" in the house of cards? http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/financ...4252231492.html ANALYSIS: THE SPLITTING of Ulster Bank’s £54 billion (€63 billion) loan book into good (“coreâ€) and potentially bad (“non-coreâ€) assets offers a glimpse of what is to come as the Irish banks enter Nama, writes SIMON CARSWELL Ulster Bank, the third-largest retail bank in the Irish market, has taken an aggressive look at its business book and parked in a new unit £15 billion of development and property loans, and low-rate tracker mortgages, which are costing the bank dearly at present in a low interest rate environment. The loans will be sold off, restructured or run down over time. Most will end up in the UK asset protection scheme, the British equivalent of Nama which will unblock banks of toxic assets. Unlike the Irish “bad bank†plan, the UK scheme will allow British lenders to absorb loan losses over time, so they don’t immediately blow a large hole in their capital, requiring further state funds. Ulster Bank’s parent company, Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) and Lloyds Banking Group, will transfer almost £600 billion in assets into the insurance scheme. The plan caps future losses on these assets. The banks, in return, agreed to pay a fee and to absorb some of the initial losses on the loans. Once the first loss is taken, the bank takes on 10 per cent of the remaining risk and the UK government assumes 90 per cent. RBS, which is 70 per cent owned by the UK government, announced that bad debts in the first half jumped to £7.5 billion, while writedowns totalled £4.3 billion. Some 70 per cent of these impairments and writedowns will be moved to the asset insurance plan. Ulster Bank has moved 27 per cent of its loan book into the “non-core†division which will be managed down by the Irish team under the protection-of-risk scheme. This compares with an estimated 20 per cent (€26 billion) of Allied Irish Banks’ loan book heading to Nama, 15 per cent (€20 billion) of Bank of Ireland’s book, 37 per cent (€27 billion) of Anglo Irish Bank’s book, 75 per cent (€7.5 billion) of Irish Nationwide Building Society’s book and 4.7 per cent (€800 million) of the loans at EBS building society. The division of the Ulster Bank’s loans into “core†and “non-core†masks the full extent of the bank’s first-half losses this year. It reported an operating loss of £8 million after a bad debt charge of £157 million, but this just covers the bank’s “core†loan book. Including the “non-core†element, which contains most of the bank’s troublesome loans, the operating losses rises to about £500 million following a total bad debt charge of £641 million. Ulster Bank’s parent company, RBS, has said that it will seek to clarify whether any of its Irish assets are eligible for Nama, but the chances of Ulster Bank participating remains remote with the UK risk insurance plan in place. Cormac McCarthy, chief executive of Ulster Bank, was keen to stress that the bank has a future in Ireland, with capital and funding support from its parent bank. RBS has injected €800 million in fresh capital into Ulster Bank this year. “We believe in the future of the bank, notwithstanding all of the issues out there,†he said. McCarthy has said that he believes it will be two to five years before the sector recovers. In the meantime, Ulster Bank is tightening costs further with a further 250 voluntary lay-offs on top of the 750 cuts already announced, which have not been finalised. Ulster Bank, which has been in business for more than 150 years, is one of the main players on the Irish banking pitch, with a substantial share of the mortgage, small and medium enterprise and personal accounts market. With the shrinking of the domestic banks following Nama and sharp consolidation through mergers, the Government will be keen to retain such a significant player on the field, if at least to keep other lenders in check and retain a modicum of competition. This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times rock on!
  16. wont just be the poor! will also be the poor tax payer even the rich tax payer and then of course the farmers! http://www.clarecourier.ie/article.asp?id=1489 quote “While farmers appreciate the difficult budgetary circumstances facing the country, they are taking a totally disproportionate share of pain. The farming community is being singled out for particularly rough treatment,†he added the west awake! rock on!
  17. cannot agree vi there are always buyers the price might not be attractive for the banks or the government but there will be buyers do you not know one of MDs golden rules "you will never buy a house on the malone rd for a bag of carrots!" rock on!
  18. someone else with the same thoughts http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/financ...4251962271.html BELFAST BRIEFING: What has happened to the plan to transform an old government building into a posh aparthotel? A GROWING number of ambitious projects in Belfast are coming under threat due to the downturn. The latest appears to be the £20 million (€23.48 million) regeneration of Armagh House, a disused former government building close to the city centre. Two years ago, the North’s Minister for Social Development, Margaret Ritchie, unveiled details of a multimillion-pound project to transform Armagh House into an upmarket aparthotel that would cater for visitors who wanted the flexibility of an apartment with the advantages of a hotel. It was envisaged that 30 apartments would be developed on the site, including two penthouse suites. According to the Minister, the project would bring “significant new jobs†to the area, with an estimated 71 full-time and 20 part-time jobs. The Department for Social Development awarded the contract for the project to Tullymore House, a Northern Ireland company owned by well-known local hoteliers Nicholas and Paul Hill. The Ballymena-based Hill brothers own the luxury Galgorm Resort and Spa and until last year owned Belfast boutique hotel Ten Square. The Hill brothers were selected as the “preferred developer†of Armagh House only after other bidders had been ruled out by the department’s Belfast regeneration office. At the time, Ritchie said her department’s selection process had been extensive. “I believe the proposal presented by Nicholas and Paul Hill offers an opportunity to create something new for Belfast which will bring quality development, vitality and vibrancy to this area and long-term benefit to the local community through the creation of new employment opportunities,†she said. Paul Hill was equally optimistic about the project two years ago. Speaking at the launch of the scheme, he said it represented a “long-term commitment†by his firm. He intended “to sympathetically restore and extend†the old building to produce a “unique luxury developmentâ€. Work was expected to begin on transforming Armagh House from an empty shell into a luxury respite last autumn. But the building, despite its prime location, remains in its same sorry state. So what has happened to the ambitious plans for the site? Firstly, despite all appearances to the contrary two years ago, everything was not quite signed and sealed on the Armagh House project between the Department for Social Development and Tullymore House. In spite of the extensive tender process and the cost to the public purse of selecting a developer, not everything was agreed with Tullymore House. According to Tullymore House finance director Karen Dundee, the department released details pertaining to the bid process, “with no formal contract signedâ€. Secondly, the local landscape has changed dramatically since the Hill brothers won the bid to develop Armagh House. They no longer operate a boutique hotel in Belfast following the sale of Ten Square to Northern Ireland businessman John Miskelly, so Armagh House does not “complement†the Hills’ interests as it previously did. Thirdly, there is the not insignificant factor of the downturn in the local economy to consider. Although Tullymore House maintains that there “is still an interest in the regeneration projectâ€, it has hinted that it is unlikely to proceed with its original plans for the scheme unless it is “at a price reflective of the current market valueâ€. The Department for Social Development is keen to point out that it is still in contact with representatives of Tullymore House and has held discussions relating to the terms of a contract for the regeneration of Armagh House. A spokesman for the department added: “In the present economic climate, these discussions tend to take some time. Retendering is not under consideration at this time.†But if the current state of play is anything to go by, the £20 million regeneration of Armagh House, along with the economic benefits it could deliver for Belfast, is looking increasingly uncertain. Meanwhile, on a more positive note, 70 jobs that were under threat at Co Armagh plastics manufacturer Reflex Mouldings, which went into administration in June, have been saved following the sale of the business. Administrator PricewaterhouseCoopers has confirmed that Lisburn-based FHS Group acquired Reflex Mouldings and its assets for an undisclosed sum. This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times the other day was forced kicking and screaming into portrush (chav-ville by the sea) dozens of houses , b+bs etc empty or knocked are waiting to be developed into 500k apartments! what a money pit! what will it look like in a few years? Apocalyse now! without the palm trees rock on!
  19. same sentiment here! http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnis...ns-1849248.html First, it's necessary to use this space to defend the banks. Over the past week, much of the criticism thrown at senior bankers was unmerited, and it would be unfair not to acknowledge that. It's a dirty job, defending those greedy bastards, but someone's got to do it. I can promise that normal service will be resumed shortly (within a few paragraphs, to be honest -- at which point we'll try to understand why we're now up to our chins in the rising tide of faeces that is Nama). The bankers got a bad rap because one bank, Permanent TSB ("The Bank That Likes to Say Feck Off"), increased interest rates. Other banks acknowledged they have similar intentions. Screams of horror issued from the media and politicians. Oh, dear -- it seems the banks are refusing to operate as social utilities. As though they believe that nothing is more important than their profits. Imagine that! "The public won't wear the fact that we're bailing out the banks and that the banks in turn are really screwing mortgage-holders and businesspeople," said Fianna Fail former minister John McGuinness, the little dote. Enda Kenny called on Brian Lenihan to intervene. Frankly, I'm a bit shocked at people like Kenny and McGuinness. Can they really be so naive as to imagine that these banks have some function as social utilities? How quaint. Criticising bankers for operating totally and exclusively in the interests of their own profit is like slagging the Terminator for blowing people's heads off. The premise of the Terminator is that he's a machine designed, built and programmed to kill, and for no other purpose. Senior bankers are programmed to relentlessly squeeze money out of the rest of us, by any means necessary. Private banks have no social function (beyond perhaps a bit of sponsorship, for PR purposes). No doubt there are individual bankers who would take pride in having a social function -- good for them. And when promotion time comes around they're sent to the end of the queue. Those who thrive and reap the gigantic bonuses are the greediest, the most single-minded, the most ruthless. Private bank directors are not just encouraged to put shareholder dividends and bank profits before everything else, they're legally obliged to do so. Of course, in a sane world, banks would be public utilities. But Kenny and McGuinness and a lot of other people give the impression that they don't believe in the overriding rule of capital and the free markets. It's currently a populist position. Last autumn, as it became obvious the banks were insolvent, there was a brief moment when things might have been different. The private banks might have been left to the tender mercies of the free markets. We might have seen the emergence of a true public utility bank, designed to service the rest of us. Here's Soapbox last November: "If I was one of the Brians, I'd buy a premises in each county, and 26 safes and 26 laptops and I'd open my own State bank. Call it the Provisional AIB. Or the Continuity Bank of Ireland. Get credit moving. Why bother giving money to the banks in the hope they'll lend it on to businesses that need it? Cut out the middle-man. We know the banks are failed financial entities, run incompetently by overpaid gobshites." Others suggested a State bank could be set up through the Post Office structure. Good idea. But, said the bishops of the free market, international investors would be aghast, they'd refuse to lend us money. I doubt it. Not if the Government explained thusly: "The banks, as free market entities, must retain their independence. Meanwhile, by setting up a State-backed bank, we will provide a safe haven for depositor and investor funds, and also the credit facility necessary for economic survival and development." Investors want a safe, profitable place for their money. Which is why they abandoned our crappy, insolvent banks. A sovereign bank offered the best value, greatest efficiency. It made sense. A State bank, however, was simply beyond the understanding of the likes of Cowen and Lenihan and their advisers. It was like telling Catholic bishops there was a warehouse of condoms around the corner, which would protect us from a blizzard of sexual diseases. It might be the sensible thing to do, but their religious sensibilities wouldn't allow them even consider it. I watched, on Vincent Browne's TV3 show, a senior economist break into a fit of giggles when he was asked about setting up a State bank. He looked just like a 1950s bishop being asked to consider condoms. Besides, the idea of a State bank has a smell of socialism off it. Better to sink into national bankruptcy than even consider any such radical ideas. Similarly, when the "bad bank" idea flourished, sensible economists urged temporary nationalisation of the main banks. It wasn't about appropriating banks, it was about temporarily neutralising the bankers who always act in their own interests, whatever the effect on the common good. Some of the most right-wing economists on the planet endorsed the idea of temporary nationalisation -- it was a capitalist solution to the problem of zombie bankers screwing up any rational attempt at unravelling the banking chaos. Again, to the likes of Cowen and Lenihan, nationalisation had a socialistic smell to it. They really are desperately incompetent. We're being Namafied by a Government that is ideologically bankrupt, intellectually crippled and operating from an electoral mandate that's way past its sell-by date. Nama (An Bord Bailout) is taking €90bn in construction loans from the banks. Happily, we have the timely Liam Carroll debacle in the High Court to indicate the market value of such loans. From the Carroll case, academic economist Brian Lucey calculates that the €90bn in loans are now worth about €40bn. And Brian Lenihan will probably pay about €60bn or €70bn for them -- a gift of up to €30bn of our money to the bankers. Why? Because the banks want money. And investors won't give it to them. And Mr Cowen and Mr Lenihan believe they can saddle us with that debt, blind us with jargon, tell us there's no alternative, and we'll meekly accept. And the banks might even use some of that money to provide credit to business -- but they're not obliged to, and they probably won't. The politicians say they believe that the loans they're buying, at a price of maybe €70bn, will "in time" be worth more than their current €40bn market value. As the property collapse ends (which, they suggest, will be any day now), property prices will rise again. And, eventually -- in maybe 20 years' time -- those bad loans may be worth €70bn. So, we'll get our money back. Insanity. Some of us think that property prices can go down a lot more. It's more likely that property prices are still heading down towards a sustainable level, and won't rise again for a long, long time. Which is fine with those of us who wouldn't at all welcome another property bubble. But the banks and the developers and their buddies in Government hope and pray for that bubble. And Mr Cowen and Mr Lenihan are betting about €30bn of our money on such a new bubble. It would be bad enough if this zombie Government was merely passing bad legislation that could be reversed by a later Government. What they're doing is stitching us into an economic strait-jacket for a couple of generations. And that's why your grandkids will be sending you Christmas greetings by internet video link from New Zealand. - Gene Kerrigan rock on!
  20. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/to...se-1848862.html THE Government faces a major controversy over how much it plans to pay for 'toxic' assets as the future of the country's biggest developer hangs in the balance. The High Court yesterday refused to appoint an examiner to protect the crumbling empire of property tycoon Liam Carroll. If the Supreme Court upholds that decision on Tuesday, and a liquidator is appointed, the sale of his assets at knock-down prices would set a new market value for risky property loans. A firesale of Mr Carroll's property empire could completely undermine the valuation formula being drawn up by the National Asset Management Agency (NAMA), whose job is to take risky loans from the banks. And that would leave the Government facing taxpayers' anger and questions over why it is paying massively over the odds for banks' risky property development and commercial loans. But if the Government pays too little for the loans, the banks' losses would leave gaping holes in their coffers -- potentially forcing the taxpayer to pump further billions into the ailing financial institutions. A senior Dublin-based stockbroker said the collapse of a developer would not have a real impact on the day-to-day workings of NAMA. "But it would have an impact on the perceptions of valuations," he said. This would make it very difficult politically to justify paying prices for loans that reflect hopes of asset increases as the economy improves. The court drama came just 24 hours after Finance Minister Brian Lenihan published draft laws underpinning NAMA, which will take over €90bn-worth of loans from banks and building societies. Last night, ACC bank threatened to immediately appoint a receiver to four of Mr Carroll's companies, but the threat was averted -- at the last minute -- when the judge agreed, "with misgivings", to postpone his refusal to continue protection, pending an appeal to the Supreme Court on Tuesday. Other banks which had been supporting Mr Carroll were also on stand-by to send in the receivers if ACC was successful in starting the winding-up. Yesterday, Mr Justice Peter Kelly launched a scathing attack on Mr Carroll, whose Zoe Group is €1.2bn in debt. Fanciful He rejected as "fanciful" and "lacking in reality" survival proposals heavily dependent on a greatly improved property market, which suggested the €1.2bn deficit could be turned into a €300m surplus within three years. That was not the objective for which examinership legislation was envisaged, he said. All of the group's major banker creditors and the Revenue adopted a neutral stance towards the examinership application but ACC Bank, which prompted the protection petition by demanding repayment of €136m loans earlier this month, signalled after yesterday's judgment it might yet move against the companies if the judge's decision stands. AIB and Bank of Scotland Ireland are the largest lenders, with 40pc and 23.8pc of €1.1bn in borrowings respectively. The Department of Finance said it had no comment to make on the case because banks were entitled to go to the courts to uphold their rights. - Dearbhail McDonald, Joe Brennan and Tim Healy rock on
  21. answer some fecking orange bankers! and a judge who doesnt belive the green shoots sh1t! http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaki.../breaking63.htm Carroll fails to get court protection for Zoe firms MARY CAROLAN Property developer Liam Carroll has failed to get court protection for companies in his Zoe group. A High Court judge today refused to continue court protection to the firms in the building group after rejecting as “fanciful†and “lacking in reality†survival proposals heavily dependent on a greatly improved property market which suggested the companies could turn a €1 billion deficit into a €300 million surplus within three years. Mr Justice Peter Kelly granted, “with misgivingsâ€, a stay on his refusal pending an appeal to the Supeme Court on Tuesday. He also expressed the view the proposed survival scheme for the six companies (on whose fate many of the other 51 companies in the Zoe group depend) “seems envisaged to help shareholders whose investment has proved to be unsucessfulâ€. That was not the objective for which the examinership legislation was envisaged, he said. All of the group’s major banker creditors and the Revenue adopted a neutral stance towards the examinership application but ACC Bank, which prompted the protection petition by demanding repayment of €136 million loans earlier this month, signalled after today’s judgment it may yet move against the companies if the judge’s decision stands. AIB and Bank of Scotland Ireland are the largest lenders with 40 and 23.8 per cent of the €1.1 billion borrowings respectively. The companies produced the three year survival plan after meeting with the banks last December and securing agreement of all except ACC. The petition for protection was brought by Vantive Holdings which, with Jersey-registered Morston Investments Ltd, is the parent companies of around 50 companies known as Zoe Developments. It was moved after four companies - Villeer Developments, Peytor Developments, Caragh Enterprises Ltd and Parlez International Ltd - were presented with demands from ACC for the repayment of loans. Refusing protection, Mr Justice Kelly dismissed as “lacking in reality†the views of an independent accountant Fergal McGrath (whom the judge noted is a member of the group’s auditors LHM Casey McGrath ) the companies could achieve “a remarkable turn around†within three years from a deficit of more than €1.2 billion to making a profit of some €300 million. He noted the proposed survival scheme involved proposals to enhance site values through planning permission, the building out and development of existing sites and the aggresive marketing of completed residential commercial and retail units. It was claimed this would generate “a significant surplus†which would then be used to fund future development. “Given current market conditions and with little or no prospect for improvement in the future on the basis of all the current economic indicators, this degree of optimism on the part of the independent accountant borders, if not actually trespasses, on the fanciful,†the judge said. “What market is there likely to be over the next three years for the sale of sites even with planning permission and the sale of residential commercial and retail units?†he asked. “The commercial market, particularly in Dublin, where much of the companies’ properties are, is grossly oversubscribed and the residential sector is hardly moving at all.†It was notable, since the companies’ business plan was initiated last December and the banks had paid off its ordinary trading creditors “except, notably, the Revenueâ€, and with an “aggressive marketing and competitive policyâ€, only 39 residential units had been sold notwithstanding the enormity of the developments carried out. The plan involved “extraordinary†forbearance by the group’s banker creditors in agreeing to a two year moratorium on interest payments and effectively refraining from calling in massive loans. This forbearance was “remarkably absent†when the banks were dealing with smaller borrowers, he remarked. “In truth the banks can do little else but forbear because if they take action to recover the monies due to them by these companies, they will bring about a collapse of the house of cards that is the petitioner, the related companies and indeed the wider group that is associated with them.†The banks had therefore stood back and not only took no steps to recover the monies but some banks actually advanced more sums to pay off the companies unsecured creditors. “It is sometimes said that when small or modest borrowers encounter difficulties in repaying their loans, then such borrowers have a problem. For those with larger borrowings, it is the banks who have a problem,†he said. “If ever a case demonstrated the accuracy of that proposition, it is this one.†He had the “gravest reservations†about the projections on which the independent accountant relied given the extraordinary collapse of the property market and little of no indication of a revival in its fortunes. The projections were based on discussions with the companies management and out of date valuation reports by two firms - CBRE and Hooke & McDonald, who could not be considered fully independent having worked for the group in the past. The propsed survival scheme was also most unusual as it would not require any investment in the companies or a write down of debts. One or both such elements figure in practically all schemes relating to companies in examinership, the judge noted noted. No investment was required because the banks would continue to provide funds towards development of the lands and no write down was envisaged because the banks were the only creditors, he noted. In all the circumstances, he was not satisfied the companies had a reasonable prospect of survival. Even if so satisfied, he would exercise his discretion to refuse protection because there was “something artificial†about what was proposed. The only creditors involved are the banks and they would be able in any event to take steps to reclaim their debts and deal with the property involved, he noted. They would be expected to maximimse its value as they saw fit. The judge also noted the number of direct employees was about 100. Another figure of 650 mentioned was largely made up of subcontractors who would be required if the partly completed developments were to be finished, he said. Earlier, the judge noted the six companies were part of a “Byzantine corporate structure†and their three directors were Mr Carroll, David Torpey and John Pope who respectively held a total of 203, 166 and 62 company directorships. for those who dont know mr carrol is the dublin slave box king and unless the supreme court decide differant will be the daddy of all busts in the emerald isle rock the feck on!
  22. Bllymena area aka "bible belt" rental search today property news returned 8 pages of properties http://www.propertynews.com/results.php?s=72394994 i n 06 would have been 2 while the bb may not have had any big firms going under yet ( there are rumours) plenty have lost jobs and many more have took 10-20% wage cuts! so a massive increase in supply of rental properties less jobs lower wages = rising rents? reality must be suspended rock on!
  23. welcome to the bible belt suspend reality 06 a search of rental properties for the bb on property news would have returned 2 pages today 8! Rock on!
  24. prudence is bad! mary says so "The Tanaiste told the Sunday Independent: "People should not be afraid to spend money if they have it because that's how you create an economic enterprise. "There's no point putting it (money) in the bank. If you are going out tonight, go out for the night -- you're getting better value for money. If you're going to go on holiday, don't be afraid to go down the country. The world doesn't have to stop just because we're in the place we are." http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/s...te-1841423.html rock on!
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